Olimar's Metagame Discussion

[DanGR]

The Olimar boards has been dry lately. I was hesitant to make this thread a while ago, but there isn't really anything we could be working on right now. >_> This thread is here for you to discuss Olimar's metagame and its relevance on the future metagame of Olimar. Smashwiki defines metagame as a word that

"refers to trends within how that game is played by its players, or a subset of its players. At any time, certain characters, strategies, tactics, tricks, skills, etc. may be popular. The metagame tends to evolve over time, as players adapt to it in order to gain an advantage, and then others adapt to these adaptations, and so on."

This thread is here for you to analyze video footage, to discuss good and bad ways of playing Olimar, and to talk about anything related to the ever evolving Olimar metagame. I advise you to get very specific in your explanations to invoke conversation. If this thread becomes a popular place to talk, I plan on updating this thread with information related to our discussion.

When I say "analyze video footage", I'm referring to a process that requires you to look at videos of the top Olimar players and looking at what specific tactics and tricks worked, which didn't, and what the player could have done to limit their percent from going up.

Good tactics might not always hit the opponent, but have a chance to, and won't put you in in a bad position. The bad tactics are the ones that hurt you, never work, or put you in a dangerous position.

I feel that this is the best way (besides practicing) to get Olimar players going in the right direction. Try to look at videos of top Olimar players against other good players. Some things that work against the less experienced won't against better people.

Here's the format I'm looking for. This is just an example:

Mr. X (Olimar) v DSF(Marth)
[link to the video]
[background-if you know what it is]

Good things that worked
-SHfair at defensive Marth
-spaced fsmashes at farther Marth
-shielding an aerial of Marth when he's jumping
-spotdodging at close range

[explanation]

Bad things that didn't work
-SHfair at approaching Marth
-spaced fsmashes at close Marth
-shielding an aerial of Marth when he's falling
-spotdodging at max sword range

[explanation]
_______
We'll try to relate these points to Olimar against other characters as well.

thanks~

Bowser
Captain Falcon
Diddy Kong
Donkey Kong
Falco
Fox
Game and Watch
Ganondorf
Ike
Jigglypuff
King Dedede
Kirby
Link
Lucario
Lucas
Luigi
Mario

Marth
Works:
-fsmashing dancing blade
-Grabbing lag of dancing blade
-Rolling behind fair wall
-Airdoding behind fair wall
Doesn't:
-attacking fair wall

Meta Knight
Ness
Olimar
Peach
Pikachu
Pit
Pokemon Trainer

R.O.B
Works:
- Space F-Smashes
- Down Smashes on approaching R.O.Bs
- Spaming Pikmin
- SH Fairs on defensive R.O.B.
- Keeping a grab length's space or more
- Whistling Aerials
- Up Air on falling or recovering R.O.Bs
- FF Nair into Up Smash for KOs
- Counterpicking Battlefield
Doesn't:
- Grab approaches
- Spot dodging
- Rolling
- Airdodging
- SH Fair on approaching R.O.Bs
- (>-_-)> Recovering <(-_-<)

Samus
Sheik

Snake
Doesn't work:
Attacking mortar edgeguard as the mortars fall

Sonic
Toon Link
Wario
Wolf
Yoshi
Zelda
Zero Suit Samus

 

[shanus]

ill be getting a decent amount of footage up from the tournaments this weekend. Will post stuff when i get the footage

 

[DanGR]

I was planning on analyzing a lot of video myself. If you want, I can take a look at some of those videos^.

 

[OlimarFan]

Here are some excellent gameplay videos of Mr.X. Unfortunately I don't have the time to analyze them...

Lake Forest R1 - Psycho ****** (Snake) vs Mr X (Olimar)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_iyIBcGpNA&feature=related

Lake Forest R1 - DSF (Marth) vs Mr X (Olimar)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcxcVUqXxSs&feature=related

Lake Forest R2 - Futile (Wario) vs Mr X (Olimar)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UY2HYor_VI&feature=related

Lake Forest R2 - Mr X (Olimar) vs DSF (Snake)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibmr1k2xJHE&feature=related

Lake Forest R3 - Psycho ****** (Snake) vs Mr X (Olimar)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZS4GWEOB7s

Lake Forest R3 - Mr X (Olimar) vs DSF (Snake)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQIvHCZOWCQ&feature=related

 

[asob4]

as soon as my friend gets around to it i will have several matches against a smart and good TL player
come late august i will get mine and chips mm recorded :D

 

[Hai Im Fearless]

tl'dr

lol10char

 

[DanGR]

It wasn't that long was it? Well... I'll be using it even if no-one else will. I'll be posting my findings here regardless.

 

[Kyas]

Well, if we want to talk about metagame, we need to define the structure of an effective metagame. In order to avoid becoming predictable, the most important thing one must develop is options. With more than one option to counter the technique of an opponent, the opponent is to busy guessing which strategy you will use rather than how to counter that strategy. It's a complicated notion that I hope I've conveyed successfully. With this in mind, I think it would be best to lay out the specific strategies that each of Olimar's trouble-matches uses to counter him and--once we have developed clear understanding of the enemy's approach--try to find out at least two counters for that strategy so that, even if one's opponent knows the way around both of these counters, they still face the difficulty of predicting which you will use.

I know that this sort of thing is done to an extent in the matchup threads, but it is rarely done with such a clear sense of direction. Clearly defining anti-olimar strategies and then pairing them up clearly with the counters of choice has the effect of organizing them properly in one's head rather than leaving them jumbled up as part of the "how you fignt marth/metaknight/snake" clump of suggestions and information tucked inside your skull. Streamlining your thoughts before a fight means that there's less jumble once the match has begun: you have more time to analyze the opponent without fumbling for the info on their character in the back of your mind.

Blarg... I'm rambling. I'm tired of defending myself and I hope that somebody got something from this rant.

 

[DanGR]

very good kyas. That's what I'm trying to get at. I couldn't really put it into words though. :/

 

[M3zm3r1z3]

I GOT UR METAGAMES RIGHT HERE

olimar's best stage is delfino plaza
i'm fairly certain olimar can raep everything but a metaknight

 

[shrinkray21]

I GOT UR METAGAMES RIGHT HERE

olimar's best stage is delfino plaza
i'm fairly certain olimar can raep everything but a metaknight

love the blue pikmin i guess

 

[asob4]

love the blue pikmin i guess

well they are pretty beastly

anywayy about the metagame and whatnot. my main concern is marth.
i do not know why but for some reason i just get ***** by fair > fair > forward b
i know what to do but i can't bring myself to doing it in tourney
:/

 

[DanGR]

Have you tried rolling behind the fair wall? I noticed that Mr. X does that and it works.

 

[asob4]

the marths i play in tournament usually see it coming and proceed to >b in that direction
i hate san diego :/ so many marth's lol

shielding the whole >b usually always works if it doesn't end up poking me

 

[Kyas]

I GOT UR METAGAMES RIGHT HERE

olimar's best stage is delfino plaza
i'm fairly certain olimar can raep everything but a metaknight

I argue corneria.
Try it sometime

 

[Pyronic_Star]

hmmm, i haven't posted in a while.......... i'll start with my opinion of stages since that was last stated....
many seem to feel that corneria or delphino is olimar's best stage......... i for one would choose delphion over corneria due to less opertunities to be gimped and the platforms witch allow olimar to uair safely... however, a stage such as jungle japes and norfair are actually far superior to both of these stages. From personal knowledge i lose to good players due to the simple gimp, therfore i'm assuming other olimars have this issue also, to compensate this downfall one should probably counterpick jungle japes, but even better... norfair due to the fact that this issue is solved. norfair has the platforms that give olimar the advatage of attacking safely from below the opponent, but more importnantly... it has 3 ledges on each side to grab, this is actually (as far as i'm aware) the only stage that olimar can go under and live. Due to the numerous lefges, it is nearly impossible to gimp a smart olimar on norfair because you can always mind game your oppoennt and then grab one of the 3 (in actuallity 2 are normally true options) ledges.... heres my imput for the day :D

random, luigie's mansion is good also, you can continuoulsly up-smash anyone off the bottom ceiling similar to MK's tornadeo... and you can set it up wit either a up-smash, grab, or anything that bounces the opponent off the ceieling... my friend literally blinked and went from 30 to 80 in about 3 seconds... and corneria... the low ceiling is great, but its a double edged sword, olimar is a lightweight after all... meaning up-b from MK, up-tilt from snake, etc.... i think you get the point

My question... is the one that no one has a full answer for... but how do you beat good metanights... like forte and azen good metakinghts. Everyone knows about MK's priority and lagless moves and godly tornadeo, but my issue doesn't lie there. With practice one can space properly, hit through the tornadeo (ffed fair thr middle, spike the middle, up b if time is allotted, or i believe nair the top corner), granted MK still would have the advantage... he is beatable. My issue is with the gimping that the good MK's do... the ability to chase olimar no matter where, then when you think you are fine... the do a ledge grab that litterally takes them from stage to ledge by the time your up-b attempts to reach the ledge. this is my largest issue with MK, i honestly feel that with everyother character skill can overcome the mismatch... with MK its really hard to say..... i can beat a lot of MK's btw :D i have to stress that my issue is with the azen and forte good MK's (i'd add M2K but i have never played him myself, but he looked amazing when i watched him)

for marth... you need to read him better.... after his fair... there is a brief opening for an up-smash if you can find it, dash perfect shield, up-smash normally works the best, or grabbing when they land works well also... its mainly about finding that opening and abusing it. and i know this from playing some good marths... i even beat neo once :D too bad i beat him only once compared to his 3 he beat me :/ but i have expierience against marths .... its a battle that you can win with more reading of your opponent

edit: just to get people's opinion... do you think that playing a different character is the best approach tobeating great MK's? and do you think MK will be banned? kinda like akuma in marvel vs capacom tourny's?

 

[Excellence]

Olimar vs R.O.B.

Good Things That Worked:
- Space F-Smashes
- Down Smashes on approaching R.O.Bs
- Spaming Pikmin
- SH Fairs on defensive R.O.B.
- Keeping a grab length's space or more
- Whistling Aerials
- Up Air on falling or recovering R.O.Bs
- FF Nair into Up Smash for KOs
- Counterpicking Battlefield

Bad things that don't work so well:
- Grab approaches
- Spot dodging
- Rolling
- Airdodging
- SH Fair on approaching R.O.Bs
- (>-_-)> Recovering <(-_-<)

I don't play a camping ROB, the one I'm playing is extremely agressive. About the only time I see a projectile from him is when he's ledgeguarding or recovering.