On manual dexterity and how training your hands can help your Melee progress

[Oasys17]

Alright, shifting to actually relevant discussion, JKJ! You never answered my question I was asking if you believed training the pinky and ring fingers of each hand to be beneficial in terms of manual execution for melee

 

[Superspright]

If you can use your pinky in Smash, then you have an advantage. The ability to hold many buttons at once and execute actions without having to hop around the controller is a boon for any character. I use my ring finger to shield with R, and if I finally evolve a full claw maybe I'll use my pinky finally.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

this entire

According to you people who are offended by immature callousness have a stick up their ***. You sound like a real authority on why people should use the word **** or not. They're not just both expressions. People who get murdered don't tend to survive the process. People who get *****, tend to. Their survival illuminates why it's offensive. People have been ***** that you may never even realize have been. You just nonchalantly talking about it is offensive because the person surviving the sexual abuse has to hear you make it sound like it's nothing.

You're the one with a stick up your ***. You can't change your language slightly to be inoffensive to people and look less stupid? All right.

youre right. there is a simple solution to this problem: we make sure we murder everyone who we have ***** so they cant get offended anymore.

 

[Somaiah]

Most people, especially in a public forum here, aren't actively looking to offend anybody or intentionally make anyone uncomfortable. Just because someone says the word "******/********" or "gay" doesn't mean they're trying to demean autistic people or homosexuals.

So, if you are affected very strongly on an emotional level about this stuff, or care at all, you have every right to feel hurt or offended or whatever. And really, to say that **** is worse than murder not only shows that you are more strongly you are affected by the word, but also proves that everyone has their own opinion on what the words mean to them. Who are you or anbody else to decide which is worse? It's bold to even try.

Personally, if you have a problem with it, I think people should be more sensitive now that you've shown your concerns. And not to devalue anyone's views or emotional struggles, but unfortunately many people, especially on the internet, really don't give a flying fladoodle what anyone else thinks, especially if they didn't mean any harm in the first place.

Relevant post: I don't know how much a claw would really help me, my wavedashing and L-cancels would definitely need to be completely relearned, and I would probably miss a metric buttload of techs because of reaction times. My pinky isn't mobile in the same way my other fingers are (although I can play guitar just fine and I never notice it normally), and will definitely take a ridiculous amount of time to strengthen. Playing with a claw isn't exactly the most popular thing on the world, even though it can do wonders for execution. I guess that says a lot about the dexterity and talent of the players that do. (Donde estas tu, Javi?)

 

[JKJ]

Alright, shifting to actually relevant discussion, JKJ! You never answered my question I was asking if you believed training the pinky and ring fingers of each hand to be beneficial in terms of manual execution for melee

Thanks for trying to get my topic back on track lol
I actually shift from normal grip to semi-claw when I'm doing a few specific maneuvers. Not only does training your other, less used fingers make them more viable for use and consistency, but it also make them overall faster and more accurate, so you can shift between grips much more quickly without even glancing down.

 

[RockinRudy]

"How to train your hands:
1. Play Video games since 4.
2. Your naturally decent or good at every game you pick up.
3. Have No Life."

Before posting the following is already implemented "lul virgin for life, ect ect ect.".

 

[Divinokage]

"How to train your hands:
1. Play Video games since 4.
2. Your naturally decent or good at every game you pick up.
3. Have No Life."

Before posting the following is already implemented "lul virgin for life, ect ect ect.".

What? If you are good at games, girls will scream for you to continue! Have confidence in your fingers! (And of course yourself)

 

[RockinRudy]

What? If you are good at games, girls will scream for you to continue! Have confidence in your fingers! (And of course yourself)

Oh I see girls go in heat when they see me... I know it I see them staring into my soul...

 

[Oasys17]

Thanks for trying to get my topic back on track lol
I actually shift from normal grip to semi-claw when I'm doing a few specific maneuvers. Not only does training your other, less used fingers make them more viable for use and consistency, but it also make them overall faster and more accurate, so you can shift between grips much more quickly without even glancing down.

That makes alot of sense. I have a lot of friends who play OTHER competitive games that swear by a claw style grip. I can't ever see myself getting into it though =\

 

[Jabejazz]

Oh I see girls go in heat when they see me... I know it I see them staring into my soul...

"Yo yo dam gurl u fine as hel."
"**** are you, goddamn creep?"
"I beat Contra."

And this is the story of how you were born.

 

[Psychoace]

Practice tech skill on girls.
profit.

 

[MountainGoat]

According to you people who are offended by immature callousness have a stick up their ***. You sound like a real authority on why people should use the word **** or not. They're not just both expressions. People who get murdered don't tend to survive the process. People who get *****, tend to. Their survival illuminates why it's offensive. People have been ***** that you may never even realize have been. You just nonchalantly talking about it is offensive because the person surviving the sexual abuse has to hear you make it sound like it's nothing.


You're the one with a stick up your ***. You can't change your language slightly to be inoffensive to people and look less stupid? All right.

According to you people who are offended by immature callousness have a stick up their ***. You sound like a real authority on why people should use the word **** or not. They're not just both expressions. People who get murdered don't tend to survive the process. People who get *****, tend to. Their survival illuminates why it's offensive. People have been ***** that you may never even realize have been. You just nonchalantly talking about it is offensive because the person surviving the sexual abuse has to hear you make it sound like it's nothing.

You're the one with a stick up your ***. You can't change your language slightly to be inoffensive to people and look less stupid? All right.

As a child someone put a stick up my ass. Your offensive language hurts me ;_;

Should we not be allowed to say anything because it might offend someone? Don't say idiot because it might offend someone who was stupid. Don't call anything lame because it might insult a crippled person. Don't say I beat you in that game because it might offend people who were beaten. Don't say i have defeated you because it might bring up painful memories of a militart defeat to a veteran.

When does it end? There's being respectful and then there's inane PC bull****. My dad died of cancer and I don't get butthurt when people call things a cancer on society or something to that effect. You should either have to not offend anyone ever or not be afraid of offending people. You can't pick and choose what's okay

 

[Signia]

Same here JKJ, all my life I've liked doing stuff with my hands. I never really got too far into it, though. Was too focused on youth sports, school, and WoW along with piano. I did do origami for a bit, but I didn't try speedrunning my paper-balloons, I just made them out of boredom. Still, I think I'd kill myself if I lost my hands D:

In my experience, doing dexterous things makes it easier to learn other dexterous things because you get more and more experience with turning conscious movements into more subconscious movements. After heavily practicing a difficult segment of a song in piano (funny, I'm currently learning to play an etude, chopin op10no3, and I didn't even know that training the hands is what they're about), I always find that performing the movements don't require any sensory input. I can do it just as well with my eyes closed, much like proficient typing on a keyboard. As you learn you get better at learning, and as an aside, this is one of the biggest merits of competitive gaming.

Also, from weightlifting research, I've learned that when you're just starting out, your strength appears to increase rapidly, but the cause isn't increased muscle mass, it's something called "neural recruitment." Basically, your brain gets better at using the muscles you have to do the movement, due to an increase in the activation of motor neurons in response to the stimulus that stimulates the movement.

This leads me to believe that all "tech-skill" is really the result of better neural recruitment, not increased muscle strength, especially since finger muscles can't gain very much muscle mass. For this reason, I'd say just practice the movements you want to master, and eventually you will master them, but I don't see why increasing your finger strength/endurance wouldn't help you maximize your abilities to do the really hard stuff consistently over the length of a tournament.

Also, If we're talking about skills carrying over into other skills, it's important to note that Gamecube controller proficiency only requires finger dexterity if you're holding it orthodox... really it's just pointer fingers and thumbs. Musical instruments, arcade-sticks, and keyboards utilize much more.

 

[Superspright]

As a child someone put a stick up my ***. Your offensive language hurts me ;_;

Should we not be allowed to say anything because it might offend someone? Don't say idiot because it might offend someone who was stupid. Don't call anything lame because it might insult a crippled person. Don't say I beat you in that game because it might offend people who were beaten. Don't say i have defeated you because it might bring up painful memories of a militart defeat to a veteran.

When does it end? There's being respectful and then there's inane PC bull****. My dad died of cancer and I don't get butthurt when people call things a cancer on society or something to that effect. You should either have to not offend anyone ever or not be afraid of offending people. You can't pick and choose what's okay

So what if your dad died of cancer? BOTH my parents died from heart attacks suddenly, and it's in our popular culture to say every 3 seconds, "Wow, you almost gave me a heart attack!"

Yeah, it sucks to hear it all the time. But, I still find **** infinitely more offensive in every possible dimension. I don't really care if people talk about cancer or heart attacks or other natural causes of death. I am concerned with forcible penetration and the society that blames its victims for being too sexy or too racy that night, and systematically instilling a feeling of guilt and shame on all of those who have been *****--and your nonchalant attitude about it has gotten to me. Given how unimaginative you seem to be you would just have to be sodomized multiple times to understand how infuriating it is to just hear the word thrown around like a football on a playground.

You're making an argument that I never made. I am not saying that we should avoid offensive words--I say we should use them as much as we want. But **** isn't even funny at all, or even remotely a good word to say. You just sound like an idiot--call stuff gay too--you sound like a damn idiot--call people ********--you sound like a damn idiot.

My argument was simple: **** victims survive ****. Murder victims don't. You can act like you feel real anguish because your dad died from cancer--but I argue you don't even know 1/1000th of what he went through--so you even getting upset over it has to deal with some overactive empathizing.

And by the way, I have a friend who SURVIVED CANCER. It pisses him off IMMENSELY and hurts him DEEPLY when people make fun of the fact that he looks like he has cancer/survived it. Do you think he should just suck it up? He survived it. People survive ****. I don't think anyone should be inconsiderate of the people around them--but a little common decency can go a long way to stop making people feel that **** is just "whatever" and "happens".

So, to answer your question: When does it end? When you stop saying ****, gay, ******, etc.

I personally think you're just a little baby and you just can't stand up for yourself when you do feel offended so you developed tough skin the same way the bullied kid might just stop caring when he gets his head shoved into a toilet every day. It doesn't mean you're cool--or right. It just means you've given up on actually caring about what you say which is indicative of some level of callousness or stupidity.

And, actually we can pick and choose what is okay--that's why we make laws, rules, regulations, etc. Have some common decency and drop the word **** out of your vocabulary to mean that you beat another person in a video game. Use it to actually mean ****. That's all. You can offend all the rapists you want. Stop offending all the **** victims.

 

[Grunt]

Oh, I get it now. He's trolling us, right?

 

[Divinokage]

Well if he is then it's pretty much an indecent troll and should rethink his approach a little more if he has any common sense.

 

[MountainGoat]

I think I'll stop talking now he obviously doesn't care about any sort of rational discourse.

 

[Somaiah]

Check out this argument:

BOTH my parents died from heart attacks suddenly, and it's in our popular culture to say every 3 seconds, "Wow, you almost gave me a heart attack!" I argue I don't even know 1/1000th of what they went through--so me even getting upset over it has to deal with some overactive empathizing.

logic.txt

 

[Superspright]

I think I'll stop talking now he obviously doesn't care about any sort of rational discourse.

You decided to stop talking because you don't have a rational discourse in an emotional argument you were trying to deliver. I was merely elucidating the point that people survive ****--people do not survive their own murders/deaths. Your argument was that murder is offensive, or that cancer is offensive because someone you or someone else knows may have went through it--I say that much is true, but **** has the distinction of being survived. If you want to have a rational discussion then you should start with my argument in the first place and not digress from my original point that I intended.

As for my logic:

"BOTH my parents died from heart attacks suddenly, and it's in our popular culture to say every 3 seconds, "Wow, you almost gave me a heart attack!" I argue I don't even know 1/1000th of what they went through--so me even getting upset over it has to deal with some overactive empathizing."

Check out this argument: So I said...*snip* I like to eat tacos...*snip* and that's the only way we can fight the war!

yeah, I too can cut things up out of context and make someone's argument seem silly. I think you commited a strawman, an argumentum ad populum and a reductio ad absurdum--either way it's a ton of logical fallacies all tied up into one.

Smashboards was never known for its debating skills/intelligence though. Keep playing the video game and don't worry about what adults think--since you don't care.

And yes, if I get upset over people talking about heart attacks I probably am overempathizing. I never died from a heart attack--or had one. So I don't even know what my parents went through before they died right in front of me. I do know that I feel loss--and guilt. The word heart attack is hardly a word that affects me. **** affects me because I've met--dated--loved--cared about people who have been *****, and some people end up killing themselves. It's more common than you know, or could imagine.

Drop the word all together unless you actually mean sexual assault which is what the word actually means because some people will/have and do survive the destructive process and have to hear you use the word like it's just an ordinary word which you use to denote you dominating another person as if that's acceptable. That is my argument. Try to refute it and just put yourself into a quagmire of puerility.

Just try and say what you say in a room full of **** victims--obviously it becomes stupid. We don't say we holocausted each other because it's offensive to Jews (and I'd argue that description is more apt than '******' the other since the holocaust was literally a ruthless domination of peoples)--why can't we just drop a stupid word that doesn't even mean what we are trying to say? I beat you in a game. I didn't **** you. **** is a sexual exploitation. Forget it though, I know I'm not going to win an argument with someone in highschool who knows it all. You'll figure it out someday when you become sympathetic toward people who have survived sexual abuse--maybe your wife or husband will be sexually abused.

And Kage, you are infinitely stupid. Don't talk about common sense, warrior.

I am getting tired of the forumer gang bang where every crony comes out of the woodwork and supports someone's argument and then thinks they win via argumentum ad populum. That's not how the world works.

 

[MountainGoat]

You talk about being sympathetic but belittle my dad's death, call me a dumb high schooler, imply that you hope my wife get ***** (I thought it was a sensitive subject that shouldn't be joked about), call anyone who agreed with me a "crony", call Kage an idiot, refer to the forum as a gang bang (another **** term that you throw out casually) and call me a child that doesn't understand what adults think or feel.

I'm 21 in a respected college. Anyone who agrees with me is not a crony. It's pretty ****ty to hope that someone close to me gets *****. You're really full of yourself and you seem like a complete prick. I had some sympathy for you and even said that **** shouldn't be used in polite or formal conversation but now you're just being a dip****.

Your arguments also don't make any sense. You say using the word **** is bad because people live with it. Okay so do cancer survivors, beating survivors, heart attack survivors, etc. yet you think only **** should be never used. I'm sorry that you've had friends ***** but me not saying **** won't do anything to help them nor will you getting extremely pissed about it and insulting people, in fact being hurtful which is supposedly what you're arguing against. You're a huge hypocrite making illogical and emotionally charged arguments without merit.

 

[Grunt]

But your argument is that someone affected by someone else's death are inherently less deserving of compassion because they themselves didn't die, which is absolutely heartless.

 

[MountainGoat]

But your argument is that someone affected by someone else's death are inherently less deserving of compassion because they themselves didn't die, which is absolutely heartless.

It's not just that. Victims of serious injuries (crippled or lame), disease or illness and victims of abuse or beating don't deserve words related to their hardships to not be used. Only **** is a sacred word that can never be used.

 

[Superspright]

But your argument is that someone affected by someone else's death are inherently less deserving of compassion because they themselves didn't die, which is absolutely heartless.

No. I never said that they don't deserve compassion. But all right. I think I said the difference is major--but I never said that they don't deserve sympathy/compassion. It's just not as serious as living through something versus watching someone else live through something.

You talk about being sympathetic but belittle my dad's death, call me a dumb high schooler, imply that you hope my daughter or wife get ***** (I thought it was a sensitive subject that shouldn't be joked about), call anyone who agreed with me a "crony", call Kage an idiot, refer to the forum as a gang bang (another **** term that you throw out casually) and call me a child that doesn't understand what adults think or feel.

I'm 21 in a respected college. Anyone who agrees with me is not a crony. It's pretty ****ty to hope that someone close to me gets *****. You're really full of yourself and you seem like a complete prick. I had some sympathy for you and even said that **** shouldn't be used in polite or formal conversation but now you're just being a dip****.

Your arguments also don't make any sense. You say using the word **** is bad because people live with it. Okay so do cancer survivors, beating survivors, heart attack survivors, etc. yet you think only **** should be never used. I'm sorry that you've had friends ***** but me not saying **** won't do anything to help them nor will you getting extremely pissed about it and insulting people, in fact being hurtful which is supposedly what you're arguing against. You're a huge hypocrite making illogical and emotionally charged arguments without merit.

You're a huge liar because you've yet again completely rearranged my argument and made it into something it absolutely never was. I never said that exclusively **** is the only offensive word on the planet earth. Quote me. Oh wait, you can't.

I'm not continuing this discussion until you actually address and refute the points I've made rather than create strawmen for you to blow down all day. When you beat my argument I'll respond--until then continue believing that I am some unsympathetic, hypocritical monster, because I don't care what a 20 something thinks. I am not sympathetic toward your father dying from cancer the same way you aren't sympathetic to me having to physically watch and hold my mom's hand as she died. No one really cares about this ****. I care about it. But, **** is ongoing and systematic. It affects all colors creeds and genders, and it's often a shameful secret that most feel they must keep. Your father dying from cancer is out in the open--being ***** in the ass is not. There is a distinction--a strong one, and until you realize **** != natural death you won't even be able to see my argument. If you really saw what I was saying you'd have already agreed with me, but you're blinded by your passion to be right at the cost of truth.

And I never implied you, or anyone you know should be *****--that would obviously be downright evil. I was just remarking you may learn what it means when you fall in love with someone who has been damaged by it. You can draw your ****ty inferences however you want, but my point shines like a beacon that you can't squelch with logical fallacies.

Heart attacks are caused by bad diets--cancer is caused by bad genetics or the environment. Those things are fairly natural--and some of it can be controlled. **** is a total spiritual destruction of another person--it takes conscious effort to do. I knew a girl whose grandfather waited until she became self-aware, and then he began molesting her just so he could **** her up for life. He told her he loved her, and told her if she told anyone he'd hate her and her parents would hate her. She has to live with that--she survived it. She's 26 and still talks about it. Sometimes she wishes she was dead from all the abuse she went through. I don't think I am being unreasonable by saying that a death in the family sucks (exception being parents/siblings), but being ***** yourself probably sucks more. And probably would upset you more if you were a victim of it in a room full of nonvictims telling you they '***** you' in X. I'm sorry I'm not sympathetic toward you--but I'd be absolutely lying if I said I was. I didn't know your father--and a lot of people die every day that I don't know--so I can't really be sympathetic toward you. I lost my father when I was 19 on valentine's day to a heart attack while he was on the phone with my mother and I was right there. If I was sympathetic toward you it wouldn't even make sense. You lost your father to probably a long process--and had a chance to say goodbye. I had no such chance--so sympathizing with you seems like a pointless exercise in imagination. I expected my parents to die--and I can accept that. What I cannot accept is the suddenness and irrationality of it. I don't even know what it's like to lose a parent to a slow process. I wish in a way my parents died in a slower fashion so I could have gotten out my feelings. But it's a selfish thought, mostly. In a way I resent people who complain about how their parents died a slow death. I just wanted to say goodbye. But that's just how I feel--it's not how I am going to act though. I wouldn't make fun of you--or even bring up cancer, or anything like that. If I knew you, I'd probably try to talk about how awesome your father was, but alas I do not know him, or you. So I cannot make that emotional quantum leap faithfully--it would just belie my real feelings. I'm a bitter **** about it.

@Grunt:
It actually is less emotionally charged to say heart attack in a room full of heart attack survivors versus **** in a room full of people who are still in the 'closet' about their sexual abuse. It makes them feel that they could have controlled it--or can stop it--etc. etc. Conditions like cancer/heart problems, etc. are normal and aren't shameful. **** is a shameful [for the victim, usually] thing and most people hide it--and it's pretty discouraging that we use the word in our community like this.

Can you just SEE the distinction and stop arguing with me already? You don't always have to be right. That's why I don't talk unless I am absolutely sure about what I am talking about. I wouldn't argue with you about what you know--I'd listen. In this case you should just simply read what I write at least 2-3 times so comprehension can sink in and you can develop a good response.

I don't see why I am arguing with an alleged adult about using the word ****--even in polite, or formal company it doesn't matter where. The word just doesn't belong in the gaming vernacular. It completely alienates girls and other people who have matured past 16 years of age.

I'm done with this discussion for real this time if you're going to respond to this with more substanceless drivel. I don't see the point wasting my mental energy on people who won't stop painting my argument red when it's blue.
[EDIT]
"It's not just that. Victims of serious injuries (crippled or lame), disease or illness and victims of abuse or beating don't deserve words related to their hardships to not be used. Only **** is a sacred word that can never be used. "

This is the precisely the kind of response I would expect from a 14 year old. Not an adult in college--you should be ashamed of yourself for so deliberately lying about my argument--you're just making yourself look stupid to anyone who can read beyond a paragraph.

I don't think we should call people who are ******** *******. That's obvious. I don't think we should call a crippled person a cripple--THESE THINGS ARE ****ING VISIBLE TO THE NAKED EYE. **** IS NOT. Stop drawing analogies that have no analogous connection! You're not even making arguments up! You're just making **** up all together.

Stop being an obtuse, mouthbreathing troglodyte for three seconds and you'd realizing how stupid you've been sounding this entire time.

"Your arguments also don't make any sense. You say using the word **** is bad because people live with it. Okay so do cancer survivors, beating survivors, heart attack survivors, etc. yet you think only **** should be never used. I'm sorry that you've had friends ***** but me not saying **** won't do anything to help them nor will you getting extremely pissed about it and insulting people, in fact being hurtful which is supposedly what you're arguing against. You're a huge hypocrite making illogical and emotionally charged arguments without merit."

By the way--I don't make domestic violence jokes in front of women or men. I've been beaten by a girl with a brick in my kidneys. I know what that **** feels like.

You don't make sense, kid. Go back to college--get your learning up. You clearly have been slacking on your liberal arts degree.

 

[JKJ]

I don't know what happened to my thread

I agree with Superspright. You guys are reading what you want to read in order to invalidate his argument. He didn't say half of the bullsh*t you are accusing him of. Go back and read it again, maybe it was too complex for you the first time. There's no shame in re-reading.

and, gang-bang does not necessarily mean ****. It actually has become a valid form of voluntary sexual intercourse for adventurous, sexually liberal females. I know a few people who were gang-banged. They did it by choice, and subsequently were not *****. Please stop seeing what you want to see.

 

[Superspright]

Gangbanging is actually a type of porn--and some women willingly have gangbangs with up to 500 men.

Gangbang isn't a great word--but it's not gang ****. You clearly haven't developed the nuances of the English language yet--keep working at college my friend. I am sure you will eventually be able to master all the subtleties of it one day--you would make me proud once you complete college and learn how to assess other's language properly.

I'm not trying to be mean--but you really aren't reading what I write, and you're literally putting what I say completely out of context.

I'd like to get back to talking about manual dexterity--does anyone know a way to become more nimble and yet still able to do things with high precision? My precision sucks, but I think it's because I have ADHD--my handwriting is like that of an eight year old because I cannot use the fine-tuned controls that we evolved with. I can do very crude and hard actions very quickly but it doesn't help when you need to move just a smidge.

 

[Grunt]

No. I never said that they don't deserve compassion. But all right. I think I said the difference is major--but I never said that they don't deserve sympathy/compassion. It's just not as serious as living through something versus watching someone else live through something.

Ok, so I'm still confused. You're speaking for all people who have been through trauma by assigning them a seriousness level? Because like you said in another part, you think being ***** is probably more serious than a family death, but I can say confidently for myself that if my brother actually died, I would be grief stricken to the point of not wanting to live anymore. Shouldn't that be up to the individual to determine what would be more serious?

And also, if we're deciding to get back on topic, I want to mention my friend. He is able to crack all knuckles in his hands simply by clenching his fists. Can anyone else do this? It's some crazy scary ****, but I wonder if it means he has some godly finger muscle control.

 

[Divinokage]

I wasn't even talking to you Superspright. =/

 

[Superspright]

I wasn't even talking to you Superspright. =/

Use quotes then. Your post sounded like you were calling me a troll for some reason, and I wouldn't troll about ****. 4chan isn't my idea of a fun time. And, you were directly speaking about me since grunt was saying I was a troll and then you called me an indecent troll without common sense. I'm not daft--but if you aren't sure of who you were talking about...then don't post.

 

[MountainGoat]

Direct quotes without rearranging anything.

Agreed. People who use the term are frequently puerile troglodytes. **** is serious. I'd prefer we say we are gonna destroy one another or beat the other's ***. **** is nothing like winning a fight.

You sound like a real authority on why people should use the word **** or not. They're not just both expressions. People who get murdered don't tend to survive the process. People who get *****, tend to. Their survival illuminates why it's offensive. People have been ***** that you may never even realize have been. You just nonchalantly talking about it is offensive because the person surviving the sexual abuse has to hear you make it sound like it's nothing.

Being ***** and being beaten are similar in that you both survive them. Another similarity is that you may "never even realize" that they have been. At the start, this is your main argument. You say that **** carries pain that sometimes is unknown to the world and that saying the word **** can remind them of that. Yet according to you saying you're gonna beat someone's ass is totally fine? Some people grow up getting their ass beaten everyday. Some people might have been specifically told by violent parents or supposed caregivers that "I'm gonna beat your ass". How is you nonchalantly talking about beating someone's ass different than saying you will **** them?

Obviously, neither of those terms would be used in polite conversation or on a formal stream or broadcast. But in a casual situation I would argue that saying I'm gonna beat your ass, or my fox totally ***** your falco (implying complete dominance) are both equally acceptable.

I can't believe someone is trying to argue this crap with me. **** is wrong. Murder is wrong. Duh. Murder is an emotionally charged word as well, but **** is just totally different in a million levels. I don't even care to explain.

True enough. Both are emotionally charged. **** is also different. I'm not sure about a million levels but I'll give all of what you wrote a read.

So what if your dad died of cancer? BOTH my parents died from heart attacks suddenly, and it's in our popular culture to say every 3 seconds, "Wow, you almost gave me a heart attack!"

So since both your parents died and only one of mine did that means what? You might not want to start sentences with "so what if your dad died of cancer".

Yeah, it sucks to hear it all the time. But, I still find **** infinitely more offensive in every possible dimension. I don't really care if people talk about cancer or heart attacks or other natural causes of death. I am concerned with forcible penetration and the society that blames its victims for being too sexy or too racy that night, and systematically instilling a feeling of guilt and shame on all of those who have been *****--and your nonchalant attitude about it has gotten to me. Given how unimaginative you seem to be you would just have to be sodomized multiple times to understand how infuriating it is to just hear the word thrown around like a football on a playground.

Again, I think **** is bad. But I don't see how saying it, even with a nonchalant attitude means that I'm instilling a feeling of guilt and shame. It doesn't mean that I think **** victims are being too sexy or too racy. I'm sorry that you think I'm unimaginative. Despite my lack of imagination I don't think I should have to be sodomized to understand how a **** victim might not want to hear the word constantly. Just like a beating or child abuse victim might not want to hear you say "I'm gonna beat your ass".

You're making an argument that I never made. I am not saying that we should avoid offensive words--I say we should use them as much as we want. But **** isn't even funny at all, or even remotely a good word to say. You just sound like an idiot--call stuff gay too--you sound like a damn idiot--call people ********--you sound like a damn idiot.

You say you're not saying you should avoid offensive words and that we should use them as much as you want. Yet you don't think we should call anything gay or ******** or say the word ****? Maybe I don't understand but you seem to be saying that we should be use those words "as much as we want" but in the same paragraph are saying that we shouldn't say them because we'll sound like a damn idiot.

My argument was simple: **** victims survive ****. Murder victims don't. You can act like you feel real anguish because your dad died from cancer--but I argue you don't even know 1/1000th of what he went through--so you even getting upset over it has to deal with some overactive empathizing.

Okay so your argument is that **** victims survive **** and murder victims don't. So only people who experience things deserve for words relating to what happened to them. Except for beating victims. You can say beat your ass all you want.

I'm sorry that you think my anguish towards my dad's three year struggle in and out of hospitals, chemo, and finally watching him slowly waste away getting worse first month after month, then week after week then day after day is not enough anguish. Maybe I don't know what he went through but that goes into my next point.

And by the way, I have a friend who SURVIVED CANCER. It pisses him off IMMENSELY and hurts him DEEPLY when people make fun of the fact that he looks like he has cancer/survived it. Do you think he should just suck it up? He survived it. People survive ****. I don't think anyone should be inconsiderate of the people around them--but a little common decency can go a long way to stop making people feel that **** is just "whatever" and "happens".

So since your friend survived cancer then we should not be allowed to refer to anything as cancer or cancerous right? Your main argument thus far is that **** victims survive **** and should never have to hear the word thrown around. If that's true then so should cancer survivors. Do you agree or is **** a special case? These points don't seem to connect to each other. I'm sorry that your friend had cancer and taunting him is a terrible thing to do but I don't think the mere use of the word is in anyway disparaging to him, just like it is not a direct affront on **** victims to use the word ****.

So, to answer your question: When does it end? When you stop saying ****, gay, ******, etc.

I personally think you're just a little baby and you just can't stand up for yourself when you do feel offended so you developed tough skin the same way the bullied kid might just stop caring when he gets his head shoved into a toilet every day. It doesn't mean you're cool--or right. It just means you've given up on actually caring about what you say which is indicative of some level of callousness or stupidity.

So to answer my question, you don't answer it. At least not in the random ad hominen paragraph out of nowhere. I'm not callous. I wouldn't directly insult or belittle a **** victim, cancer victim, beating victim or victim of child abuse. I just don't think that avoiding using the word does them any good.

And, actually we can pick and choose what is okay--that's why we make laws, rules, regulations, etc. Have some common decency and drop the word **** out of your vocabulary to mean that you beat another person in a video game. Use it to actually mean ****. That's all. You can offend all the rapists you want. Stop offending all the **** victims.

We can pick and choose what's okay generally but my point in this case is that you seem to be (maybe I'm under the wrong impression) that **** is a word that can not be used outside of its most literal context while it is seemingly okay to talk about beating someone's ass or calling something cancerous.

You decided to stop talking because you don't have a rational discourse in an emotional argument you were trying to deliver. I was merely elucidating the point that people survive ****--people do not survive their own murders/deaths. Your argument was that murder is offensive, or that cancer is offensive because someone you or someone else knows may have went through it--I say that much is true, but **** has the distinction of being survived. If you want to have a rational discussion then you should start with my argument in the first place and not digress from my original point that I intended.

I'm sorry for my briefer replies earlier. I was on my phone and it was hard to scroll through and get everything in one go. I tried to get the main points but now that I'm home I'm gonna make a greater effort to address everything you've said. This is a repeat of your earlier argument that people survive **** so it is specifically more emotionally charged. First of all, I think it can still be scarring and incredibly hard even if you aren't the primary victim or survivor. You yourself say later on how hard it is for you to watch your parents die or have friends who have been ***** or killed themselves. Which lends credence to my point that even direct victims can still bear heavy scars.

As for my logic:

"BOTH my parents died from heart attacks suddenly, and it's in our popular culture to say every 3 seconds, "Wow, you almost gave me a heart attack!" I argue I don't even know 1/1000th of what they went through--so me even getting upset over it has to deal with some overactive empathizing."

Being reminded of your parents dying right in front of you doesn't have to be overactive empathizing. It's totally normal to be reminded about it and feel down or upset. I know everytime someone asks me about my "parents" (when I only have one) or when in school teachers would say "take this home to mom and dad" it hurt. However, I don't think that society should bend to my personal troubles. It's not realistic.

Check out this argument: So I said...*snip* I like to eat tacos...*snip* and that's the only way we can fight the war! yeah, I too can cut things up out of context and make someone's argument seem silly. I think you commited a strawman, an argumentum ad populum and a reductio ad absurdum--either way it's a ton of logical fallacies all tied up into one.

I guess this is accusing me and others of rearranging your words? Not sure what other people did but I don't believe that I did any sort of ellipsis tricks or making anything up. Sorry if I did but I'm attempting to give a fully formed response now.

Smashboards was never known for its debating skills/intelligence though. Keep playing the video game and don't worry about what adults think--since you don't care.

Pointless ad hominen.

And yes, if I get upset over people talking about heart attacks I probably am overempathizing. I never died from a heart attack--or had one. So I don't even know what my parents went through before they died right in front of me. I do know that I feel loss--and guilt. The word heart attack is hardly a word that affects me. **** affects me because I've met--dated--loved--cared about people who have been *****, and some people end up killing themselves. It's more common than you know, or could imagine.

You're not necessarily overempathizing. Again, I don't think its unreasonable to be upset about being reminded of your parents dying. On the next section, why does it matter if you know **** victims? Under your understanding only a **** victim can truly understand the pain so it's irrelevant if you know them or not. If I can't understand anguish of my father slowly dying and my Mom practically losing her sanity then how can you imagine the anguish of **** victims?

Drop the word all together unless you actually mean sexual assault which is what the word actually means because some people will/have and do survive the destructive process and have to hear you use the word like it's just an ordinary word which you use to denote you dominating another person as if that's acceptable. That is my argument. Try to refute it and just put yourself into a quagmire of puerility.


Just try and say what you say in a room full of **** victims--obviously it becomes stupid. We don't say we holocausted each other because it's offensive to Jews (and I'd argue that description is more apt than '******' the other since the holocaust was literally a ruthless domination of peoples)--why can't we just drop a stupid word that doesn't even mean what we are trying to say? I beat you in a game. I didn't **** you. **** is a sexual exploitation. Forget it though, I know I'm not going to win an argument with someone in highschool who knows it all. You'll figure it out someday when you become sympathetic toward people who have survived sexual abuse--maybe your wife or husband will be sexually abused.

Okay, I'll try to venture into the "quagmire of puerility" (nice vocab). You're making the same argument before but I'll talk about it some more. You once again say **** is special because there are survivors, I'll again say there are survivors of many terrible things, we still use words that relate to their suffering in other contexts. What's different about ****? We don't say holocausted because it's awkward to say. We might say wow I burned you so bad which might be offensive to burn victims or people who are afraid of fire though. (Holocaust originally refers to a sacrifice by fire).

Your other point is that I can only know how to be sympathetic to **** victims when I know one. You don't know if I don't know one. Your argument also falls down because you previously stated that I can't even understand the anguish of my dying father. How can I understand the anguish of a ***** friend? Why are we more required to be sympathetic to **** victims than we are to victims of anything else? I might be misinterpreting your argument and you think that we should avoid saying anything like "I'm gonna beat you" or "I will abuse the **** out of your fox" or "sheik is a cancer on this game why do you play that ****ty character" but you yourself said it was perfectly okay to say I'm gonna beat your ass as an alternative to saying ****.

And Kage, you are infinitely stupid. Don't talk about common sense, warrior.

More ad hominen I guess? Iono maybe you know him and are joking around.

I am getting tired of the forumer gang bang where every crony comes out of the woodwork and supports someone's argument and then thinks they win via argumentum ad populum. That's not how the world works.

This argument isn't about numbers or cronies or a gang bang (not sure how that applies at all honestly). I'm sorry if it upset you that people agreed with me but it doesn't suddenly make it a fallacy. People are free to speak up and it doesn't mean they're cronies. I hardly know anyone on this board so I could hardly call anyone a crony.

No. I never said that they don't deserve compassion. But all right. I think I said the difference is major--but I never said that they don't deserve sympathy/compassion. It's just not as serious as living through something versus watching someone else live through something.

Alright then why will I understand **** when I watch it? Why is **** the only thing that you can survive that you're not allowed to say in casual speech?

You're a huge liar because you've yet again completely rearranged my argument and made it into something it absolutely never was. I never said that exclusively **** is the only offensive word on the planet earth. Quote me. Oh wait, you can't.

You didn't say that. But so far you seem to be saying that it's the only word you can't use. You did mention cancer, heart attacks beating but seemed to be okay with those being used. You thought it was stupid to call something gay or ******** but that's in a bit of a different category that I haven't really touched on anyway. I don't think I've rearranged your argument. I may have misinterpeted or taken it out of context and if so I'd like you to tell me how.

I'm not continuing this discussion until you actually address and refute the points I've made rather than create strawmen for you to blow down all day. When you beat my argument I'll respond--until then continue believing that I am some unsympathetic, hypocritical monster, because I don't care what a 20 something thinks. I am not sympathetic toward your father dying from cancer the same way you aren't sympathetic to me having to physically watch and hold my mom's hand as she died. No one really cares about this ****. I care about it. But, **** is ongoing and systematic. It affects all colors creeds and genders, and it's often a shameful secret that most feel they must keep. Your father dying from cancer is out in the open--being ***** in the *** is not. There is a distinction--a strong one, and until you realize **** != natural death you won't even be able to see my argument. If you really saw what I was saying you'd have already agreed with me, but you're blinded by your passion to be right at the cost of truth.

I hope that my earlier points will have counted as addressing your points because apparently whenever I talk about anything you've said it's just a strawman. I'm not sure why age matters, you've called me a high schooler, a kid, a 20 something all disparagingly but never really pointed out why that matters in this case.

And I never implied you, or anyone you know should be *****--that would obviously be downright evil. I was just remarking you may learn what it means when you fall in love with someone who has been damaged by it. You can draw your ****ty inferences however you want, but my point shines like a beacon that you can't squelch with logical fallacies.

You didn't say that they should be *****, true, but it seems kind of ****ed up to suddenly bring in my future spouse. There's no need to make this personal but you have managed to insult me constantly through your arguments. Here again you say that I will understand **** when I fall in love with someone who has been *****. Again, contradicting your point that we can't understand the anguish other people feel or even be affected it by 1/100000 they are.

Heart attacks are caused by bad diets--cancer is caused by bad genetics or the environment. Those things are fairly natural--and some of it can be controlled. **** is a total spiritual destruction of another person--it takes conscious effort to do. I knew a girl whose grandfather waited until she became self-aware, and then he began molesting her just so he could **** her up for life. He told her he loved her, and told her if she told anyone he'd hate her and her parents would hate her. She has to live with that--she survived it. She's 26 and still talks about it. Sometimes she wishes she was dead from all the abuse she went through. I don't think I am being unreasonable by saying that a death in the family sucks (exception being parents/siblings), but being ***** yourself probably sucks more.

So with heart attack victims and cancer victims it's their fault so it's okay to talk about it disparagingly? That's horrible that you know someone that was so terribly abused but it just makes me feel more and more like that this is more based on your personal experiences of knowing people who were ***** rather than any sort of logical dictums. You're personally invested in it and very emotionally charged. I certainly wouldn't throw **** around casually with you. However, I don't think that means that I should stop saying it ever again.

And probably would upset you more if you were a victim of it in a room full of nonvictims telling you they '***** you' in X. I'm sorry I'm not sympathetic toward you--but I'd be absolutely lying if I said I was. I didn't know your father--and a lot of people die every day that I don't know--so I can't really be sympathetic toward you. I lost my father when I was 19 on valentine's day to a heart attack while he was on the phone with my mother and I was right there. If I was sympathetic toward you it wouldn't even make sense. You lost your father to probably a long process--and had a chance to say goodbye. I had no such chance--so sympathizing with you seems like a pointless exercise in imagination. I expected my parents to die--and I can accept that. What I cannot accept is the suddenness and irrationality of it. I don't even know what it's like to lose a parent to a slow process. I wish in a way my parents died in a slower fashion so I could have gotten out my feelings. But it's a selfish thought, mostly. In a way I resent people who complain about how their parents died a slow death. I just wanted to say goodbye. But that's just how I feel--it's not how I am going to act though. I wouldn't make fun of you--or even bring up cancer, or anything like that. If I knew you, I'd probably try to talk about how awesome your father was, but alas I do not know him, or you. So I cannot make that emotional quantum leap faithfully--it would just belie my real feelings. I'm a bitter **** about it.

I don't expect you to be sympathetic towards me. You don't know me at all. I do expect you to respect me, not call me names and not say "so what" and try to top it when I talk about my father dying. We can argue about it all night about which way is better for a parent to die. But i can tell you this. By the end, we all wanted my Dad to die. It was too painful. We went about our day as zombies. Is this the day? At the end we all cried but we also felt relieved that we could finally move on to another stage in our lives. It sounds horrible but I don't expect you to understand it. Just like I can't understand the horrible shock of a sudden death either.

@Grunt:
It actually is less emotionally charged to say heart attack in a room full of heart attack survivors versus **** in a room full of people who are still in the 'closet' about their sexual abuse. It makes them feel that they could have controlled it--or can stop it--etc. etc. Conditions like cancer/heart problems, etc. are normal and aren't shameful. **** is a shameful [for the victim, usually] thing and most people hide it--and it's pretty discouraging that we use the word in our community like this.

People can be in the closet about other forms of abuse as well. They can also be in the closet over diseases such as HIV/AIDS, cancer involving private areas or lung cancer which is sometimes stereotyped as something that only smokers who deserve it get.

Can you just SEE the distinction and stop arguing with me already? You don't always have to be right. That's why I don't talk unless I am absolutely sure about what I am talking about. I wouldn't argue with you about what you know--I'd listen. In this case you should just simply read what I write at least 2-3 times so comprehension can sink in and you can develop a good response.

I don't see why I am arguing with an alleged adult about using the word ****--even in polite, or formal company it doesn't matter where. The word just doesn't belong in the gaming vernacular. It completely alienates girls and other people who have matured past 16 years of age.

I'm done with this discussion for real this time if you're going to respond to this with more substanceless drivel. I don't see the point wasting my mental energy on people who won't stop painting my argument red when it's blue.

You keep on arguing that we're misinterpreting you and calling everyone idiots. I hope that I've been more clear and thorough this time around.

-(In response to MountainGoat post about cripples etc and **** being the only word you can't say)- Added by MountainGoat

This is the precisely the kind of response I would expect from a 14 year old. Not an adult in college--you should be ashamed of yourself for so deliberately lying about my argument--you're just making yourself look stupid to anyone who can read beyond a paragraph.

I don't think we should call people who are ******** *******. That's obvious. I don't think we should call a crippled person a cripple--THESE THINGS ARE ****ING VISIBLE TO THE NAKED EYE. **** IS NOT. Stop drawing analogies that have no analogous connection! You're not even making arguments up! You're just making **** up all together.

My argument was a bit hasty and ill-formed but I think it's equally hasty and ill-informed to dismiss it so completely and angrily. Not all crippled people are visibile to the naked eye. Some people have stealthy prosthetics, some you might not be able to tell are crippled until they walk, others may feel crippled by debilitating mental conditions that are not easily seen. You're trying to put **** in a special category again when I've shown it to not be as unique as you think it is. Plenty of terrible things are not visibile to the naked eyes. I've listed plenty already but another one is veterans. The mere talk of shooting, guns or murder may bring up painful memories particularly if they are suffering from PTSD.

Stop being an obtuse, mouthbreathing troglodyte for three seconds and you'd realizing how stupid you've been sounding this entire time.

You sure do love you some good pointless insulting.

"Your arguments also don't make any sense. You say using the word **** is bad because people live with it. Okay so do cancer survivors, beating survivors, heart attack survivors, etc. yet you think only **** should be never used. I'm sorry that you've had friends ***** but me not saying **** won't do anything to help them nor will you getting extremely pissed about it and insulting people, in fact being hurtful which is supposedly what you're arguing against. You're a huge hypocrite making illogical and emotionally charged arguments without merit."

By the way--I don't make domestic violence jokes in front of women or men. I've been beaten by a girl with a brick in my kidneys. I know what that **** feels like.


You don't make sense, kid. Go back to college--get your learning up. You clearly have been slacking on your liberal arts degree.

I'm not sure how your comment counters what I'm saying. At no point have I advocated teasing **** victims or making jokes in front of them. I make a reasonable argument and you brush it aside. You also never adjust the hypocrisy of claiming to want to be sensitive and civil and constantly insulting me, including at the end of the paragraph.

By the way. Would it insult you if someone said something got brick'd?

Gangbanging is actually a type of porn--and some women willingly have gangbangs with up to 500 men.

Gangbang isn't a great word--but it's not gang ****. You clearly haven't developed the nuances of the English language yet--keep working at college my friend. I am sure you will eventually be able to master all the subtleties of it one day--you would make me proud once you complete college and learn how to assess other's language properly.

I'm not trying to be mean--but you really aren't reading what I write, and you're literally putting what I say completely out of context.

Noted. I still think gangbang can have connotations of **** but I am aware that the word has a different context as well. Similar to how **** can be used in a different context. Again, you insult me vigorously. Good job, it really helps convince me to agree with you and makes you seem like a reasonable guy.

I'm not trying to be mean

Could have fooled me. You've taken just about every chance you've had to insult my intelligence, imply my age doesn't allow me to understand things as "adults" do, call me a mouth breathing troglodyte etc. etc.


I hope we can have a reasonable discussion without you insulting me.

EDIT: By the way do you want to take this to personal messages or something? We've completely derailed the thread. Maybe make our own thread but iono if smashboards is the right place for this kind of discussion. Don't we have some kind of debate hall? I only go the melee related boards.

 

[Grunt]

Yeah but you have to prove yourself or some ****.

 

[standardtoaster]

holy **** i didn't mean to start this much by commenting on the term originally

 

[Signia]

I'm kinda pissed that a great thread like this, discussing the depth of real-world physical ability, has been derailed by this nonsense.

I actually agree with you, but I just think it's a bad habit, not something people should freak out about. You started off fine, but you're starting to sound like a radfem, get this garbage out of my SWF. It's like you're mad or something, and are spending too much time trying to win this argument harder than you already have. Just define your terms properly, call out the strawmen, explain the false analogies, and move on.

But, **** is ongoing and systematic.

Systematic? Do rapists conspire together to do what they do? Does the "system" encourage **** despite severely punishing and shaming anyone who is even accused of it?

my point shines like a beacon that you can't squelch with logical fallacies.

Lol listen to yourself. Regardless of how good your point is, claiming immunity to logical fallacies with some pretty simile has no place describing an valid/sound, or strong/cogent argument.

**** is a total spiritual destruction of another person--it takes conscious effort to do.

Spiritual? Huh? Another metaphor or serious? Can't tell with you ideologues.

I lost my father when I was 19....

You win the depression olympics, grats... why are we sharing personal experiences again, as if we take anecdotes seriously...? And are you guys really trying to compare how bad people feel about various things? Your argument is basically: I feel at least as bad as you do about your parents dying, and hearing their cause of death thrown around metaphorically causes no where near as much pain as it does for ****. Neither of you have been ***** or sexually assaulted, so how could you draw the comparison with your personal experiences? Do you think you've gained some perspective on other kinds of suffering for having suffered?

Just cite the suicides for **** victims vs. suicides for people-who-are-related-to-people-who-have-died and move on, no need to adorn weak arguments with your emotional bull****.

I'm done with this discussion for real this time if you're going to respond to this with more substanceless drivel. I don't see the point wasting my mental energy on people who won't stop painting my argument red when it's blue. blah blah relentless ad hominem

More pretty rhetoric. It suffices to just state and restate the strawmen, and, if you like, restate your argument and clear up the confusion.

Gangbanging is actually a type of porn--and some women willingly have gangbangs with up to 500 men.

Gangbang isn't a great word--but it's not gang ****. You clearly haven't developed the nuances of the English language yet--keep working at college my friend. I am sure you will eventually be able to master all the subtleties of it one day--you would make me proud once you complete college and learn how to assess other's language properly.

I'm not trying to be mean--but you really aren't reading what I write, and you're literally putting what I say completely out of context.

Thinking "gangbangs" are non-consensual is completely understandable, and by your sarcasm about being proud of him for mastering what is probably his native language, you clearly are trying to be mean(It's ok, I'd be mad too if someone wouldn't stop with the strawman arguments). "Gangbang" is also used to describe violent gang activity, and most people think of **** as something done in back alleys with a gang. "Gangbang" doesn't imply consensuality, either, and doing a quick search around the internet (about the word, not porn) it seems it carries a connotation of being non-consensual unless specified otherwise. Why you're criticizing someone's grasp of the language for lack of knowledge of the subtleties of a word that's practically slang, I don't know.

I'd like to get back to talking about manual dexterity--does anyone know a way to become more nimble and yet still able to do things with high precision? My precision sucks, but I think it's because I have ADHD--my handwriting is like that of an eight year old because I cannot use the fine-tuned controls that we evolved with. I can do very crude and hard actions very quickly but it doesn't help when you need to move just a smidge.

Oh goody, the topic. Yeah, there is a way to improve: practice. For any given motion, do it slowly and deliberately and then increase speed. Take note of everything your body is doing too. Sitting on the floor and sitting in a chair result in different postures, resulting in different ways your arms are resting, and this greatly affects some people's muscle memory. It's important to do things the same way every time, so your practice of a specific motion will matter; practicing all motions is too much work. However, you may be forced to do things differently, so be sure to look out for special cases.

Example: For doing wavedashes, break down each button press and stick direction, then string them together as one action, practicing until you can think of it as one action. Notice how your thumbs aren't always in ready position to do a wavedashing, so it's important to expand the motion to include movement into the action. Then, consider what is done out of the action and make sure the transition is smooth. Resolve special cases like WD OoS by practicing it and optimizing the efficency. I trained myself to shield with one of the shoulder buttons and to wavedash with the other shoulder button, so WD OoS would feel like any other motion to my pointer finger, with the alternative being having to practice releasing the shoulder button and quickly pressing it again within the time of the jump startup plus a couple frames.

Of course you could just be screwed. My ADHD friend couldn't master precise motions in Soul Calibur V no matter how much he claimed he practiced. Didn't stop him from being better than me, though.

 

[Superspright]

It bothers me deeply that I am going to have to give the proverbial smackdown on both of you for your grievous error in trying to have an internet argument with me about semantics and **** culture. I'll edit this post so I don't doublepost, but thank you for your advice Signia about mastering finer techniques--I do do that currently. That is my current method of developing finer motor control. I can do some very fine motor control skills that require frame perfect inputs but I wish I could be more consistent...sometimes my hands want to do what I want--and other times I feel like they say piss off. I wonder if I need medication sometimes--but I wouldn't take drugs for a video-game, but it would be nice to be 'normal'.

 

[Signia]

**** culture

And there it is... the big reveal: Superspight is a feminist. Please define what you mean by "**** culture" first... I sincerely hope you don't mean this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_culture, and that our society has this (though idk where you're from....).

 

[Superspright]

Being ***** and being beaten are similar in that you both survive them. Another similarity is that you may "never even realize" that they have been. At the start, this is your main argument. You say that **** carries pain that sometimes is unknown to the world and that saying the word **** can remind them of that. Yet according to you saying you're gonna beat someone's *** is totally fine? Some people grow up getting their *** beaten everyday. Some people might have been specifically told by violent parents or supposed caregivers that "I'm gonna beat your ***". How is you nonchalantly talking about beating someone's *** different than saying you will **** them?

They are similar in a lot of ways. I don't really tend to say I beat someone's ass in a game. I just tend to say I beat them at the game. The word beat could be a trigger--but it has a lot of meanings to it. **** is pretty straight forward for most people until it becomes colloquialism that means you've dominated another person at X. I think that's wrong. Both aren't right really. I'd just wager that **** is more offensive. Maybe I'm wrong. I don't think most girls like it when guys joke about domestic violence, or ****. I'd say **** is a little higher. If we're just talking men...I'd still say I'd rather be beaten up than *****. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Obviously, neither of those terms would be used in polite conversation or on a formal stream or broadcast. But in a casual situation I would argue that saying I'm gonna beat your ***, or my fox totally ***** your falco (implying complete dominance) are both equally acceptable.

Maybe in bizzarro world. No wonder why women don't want to listen to us while we play video games. I get kind of annoyed every time I hear it said. Most people just keep saying it.

So since both your parents died and only one of mine did that means what? You might not want to start sentences with "so what if your dad died of cancer".

My dismissiveness was solely because it wasn't necessary to the argument. It was just an emotional appeal. Sorry.

Again, I think **** is bad. But I don't see how saying it, even with a nonchalant attitude means that I'm instilling a feeling of guilt and shame. It doesn't mean that I think **** victims are being too sexy or too racy. I'm sorry that you think I'm unimaginative. Despite my lack of imagination I don't think I should have to be sodomized to understand how a **** victim might not want to hear the word constantly. Just like a beating or child abuse victim might not want to hear you say "I'm gonna beat your ***".

It's annoying how men (because I don't really hear women saying this) will drop the word **** after every victory/cool move. That's cool, I suppose, but it sounds like to anyone on the outside like you really don't grasp what **** is. For people that have been sexually abused I've known that they pretty much hate that word and are generally afraid of the concept entirely. I don't think it's good to even say it all in any company because polite or otherwise it's more than mildly offensive. Think about it like a risk reward ratio. The risk is low that you will offend anyone--but the reward (or in this case the inverse ie. the punishment) would be tremendous for that person and perhaps for yourself. Some people are more emotional than others. I just find it strange we picked a word that is so repugnant to say we dominated another person in a game. I liked 'get owned' or something. That was pretty legit. Don't bring up slavery. No one is enslaved and playing Melee--maybe Warcraft.

You say you're not saying you should avoid offensive words and that we should use them as much as you want. Yet you don't think we should call anything gay or ******** or say the word ****? Maybe I don't understand but you seem to be saying that we should be use those words "as much as we want" but in the same paragraph are saying that we shouldn't say them because we'll sound like a damn idiot.

I think we should use offensive words when they are actually appropriate...but I don't think words like gay, ******, etc. should be used as an insult. Those are classifications of people. If people who were 'gay' weren't also 'gay for doing X' I'd be fine with gay be used the way it is. But there are gay people who don't like their sexual identity being used as a bludgeon. I don't use that word to describe anything.

I'm sorry that you think my anguish towards my dad's three year struggle in and out of hospitals, chemo, and finally watching him slowly waste away getting worse first month after month, then week after week then day after day is not enough anguish. Maybe I don't know what he went through but that goes into my next point.

I don't either. I think you experienced first-hand the loss of a parent. That is awful no matter what. But, being a parent and meeting your demise while your family and loved ones watch you waste away into nothingness is probably more heart-wrenching. I am sure he wanted to stay there for you 100% no matter what. All parents want to be with their children. Empathy is a gift and a curse because it makes us disillusioned about how much we feel toward others and how much we understand their emotions. I'm sure he went through a lot more than you did--and I'm sure my parents went through a lot more heartache than I did watching them die and burying them. That aside...

So since your friend survived cancer then we should not be allowed to refer to anything as cancer or cancerous right? Your main argument thus far is that **** victims survive **** and should never have to hear the word thrown around. If that's true then so should cancer survivors. Do you agree or is **** a special case? These points don't seem to connect to each other. I'm sorry that your friend had cancer and taunting him is a terrible thing to do but I don't think the mere use of the word is in anyway disparaging to him, just like it is not a direct affront on **** victims to use the word ****.

Ah, now to cancer...cancer is very different. I am glad that people use cancer in an offensive way. When people BEAT cancer they defeated it. Using it in a disparaging way is fine. I don't think anyone would be offended by using the word cancer in that manner. But saying that someone should get cancer is pretty stupid. We don't say anything about cancer--it's not really in the gaming lexicon...we don't say that another player is so good he's like cancer...

So to answer my question, you don't answer it. At least not in the random ad hominen paragraph out of nowhere. I'm not callous. I wouldn't directly insult or belittle a **** victim, cancer victim, beating victim or victim of child abuse. I just don't think that avoiding using the word does them any good.

I just think you can end up saying "I ***** you" to someone who was ***** by a man, and uh...yeah. What would that be like for them? Probably bother them extremely deeply. You can't imagine that though, so you're not letting it be a possibility.

We can pick and choose what's okay generally but my point in this case is that you seem to be (maybe I'm under the wrong impression) that **** is a word that can not be used outside of its most literal context while it is seemingly okay to talk about beating someone's *** or calling something cancerous.

Cancerous as I said above...and I don't think people use that word in the gaming community... It's not glorifying it anyway. Saying you ***** someone is pretty much a glorification of the word. Aren't you glad you ***** him?? Yeah. I thought so. The subtext is what you are missing, and I hope you're seeing the picture I'm seeing.

I don't think saying you are gonna beat someone is good either--but that was just a less offensive alternative--not an example really. My fault.

I'm sorry for my briefer replies earlier. I was on my phone and it was hard to scroll through and get everything in one go. I tried to get the main points but now that I'm home I'm gonna make a greater effort to address everything you've said. This is a repeat of your earlier argument that people survive **** so it is specifically more emotionally charged. First of all, I think it can still be scarring and incredibly hard even if you aren't the primary victim or survivor. You yourself say later on how hard it is for you to watch your parents die or have friends who have been ***** or killed themselves. Which lends credence to my point that even direct[sic] victims can still bear heavy scars.

I think you mean indirect victims. You're right.

Being reminded of your parents dying right in front of you doesn't have to be overactive empathizing. It's totally normal to be reminded about it and feel down or upset. I know everytime someone asks me about my "parents" (when I only have one) or when in school teachers would say "take this home to mom and dad" it hurt. However, I don't think that society should bend to my personal troubles. It's not realistic.

You're absolutely right. But, society can't control fate [death] so it assumes you're at a particular stage in your development. If we were normal we should both have parents right now. But, we don't. Given that our circumstances are similar I can attest that it breaks me a little when people complain about their parents or talk about how much they love their mom/dad.

I guess this is accusing me and others of rearranging your words? Not sure what other people did but I don't believe that I did any sort of ellipsis tricks or making anything up. Sorry if I did but I'm attempting to give a fully formed response now.

You didn't do that.

You're not necessarily overempathizing. Again, I don't think its unreasonable to be upset about being reminded of your parents dying. On the next section, why does it matter if you know **** victims? Under your understanding only a **** victim can truly understand the pain so it's irrelevant if you know them or not. If I can't understand anguish of my father slowly dying and my Mom practically losing her sanity then how can you imagine the anguish of **** victims?

What I know. I know. An explanation isn't really warranted, but I think it's fairly unnatural to **** or to not have parents at a young age. But, the argument was what we in the smash/gaming community say...which is ****. So, if we said, "I just beat you so bad your mother and father felt it and your sick old grandma," then I'd probably talk about that.

Okay, I'll try to venture into the "quagmire of puerility" (nice vocab). You're making the same argument before but I'll talk about it some more. You once again say **** is special because there are survivors, I'll again say there are survivors of many terrible things, we still use words that relate to their suffering in other contexts. What's different about ****? We don't say holocausted because it's awkward to say. We might say wow I burned you so bad which might be offensive to burn victims or people who are afraid of fire though. (Holocaust originally refers to a sacrifice by fire).

We wouldn't say we burned someone if they were an actual burn victim...visible to the naked eye disabilities are obvious things to avoid talking about or avoid using as an insult. We don't say holocausted because it's really really offensive...it's not an awkward word. Jewish people play the game and obviously it's not the most visible trait (unless they are wearing something that marks them) it actually sounds pretty cool if you take out the emotional impact. It's like a 1-2-3...like I hol-o-CAUSTED that guy. I dunno, maybe that's just me. I still think the word is bad because of what it actually means.

Your other point is that I can only know how to be sympathetic to **** victims when I know one. You don't know if I don't know one. Your argument also falls down because you previously stated that I can't even understand the anguish of my dying father. How can I understand the anguish of a ***** friend? Why are we more required to be sympathetic to **** victims than we are to victims of anything else? I might be misinterpreting your argument and you think that we should avoid saying anything like "I'm gonna beat you" or "I will abuse the **** out of your fox" or "sheik is a cancer on this game why do you play that ****ty character" but you yourself said it was perfectly okay to say I'm gonna beat your *** as an alternative to saying ****.

It's not a good alternative. Better than ****, but still dumb. I'd say we should stick to own, pwn, or whatever really means we beat them at the game, or outclassed them, outwitted them, out maneuvered, out positioned, etc.

I just think our ability to articulate our thoughts is suffering in place of an easy word. The f word was used by my mother for everything. I hated that. It's not a verbadjectivenounadverbpluralpronounetc.

This argument isn't about numbers or cronies or a gang bang (not sure how that applies at all honestly). I'm sorry if it upset you that people agreed with me but it doesn't suddenly make it a fallacy. People are free to speak up and it doesn't mean they're cronies. I hardly know anyone on this board so I could hardly call anyone a crony.

It's just forums usually have forum warriors or alternate accounts. I've frequented many fora and found that most places are cliqueish and don't like outsiders. I'm used to it.

I hope that my earlier points will have counted as addressing your points because apparently whenever I talk about anything you've said it's just a strawman. I'm not sure why age matters, you've called me a high schooler, a kid, a 20 something all disparagingly but never really pointed out why that matters in this case.

The strawmen matter. It's a logical fallacy where you cherry pick or oversimplify my argument...rinse repeat until win. It works when people are dumb. But maybe you didn't have the time to read through everything I wrote.

You didn't say that they should be *****, true, but it seems kind of ****ed up to suddenly bring in my future spouse. There's no need to make this personal but you have managed to insult me constantly through your arguments. Here again you say that I will understand **** when I fall in love with someone who has been *****. Again, contradicting your point that we can't understand the anguish other people feel or even be affected it by 1/100000 they are.

I'm kinda an intense person. I don't know how to turn it off, but I just meant you could meet the love of your life and be dropping that word around her and not even know how much it's hurting her. It's not really relevant.

So with heart attack victims and cancer victims it's their fault so it's okay to talk about it disparagingly? That's horrible that you know someone that was so terribly abused but it just makes me feel more and more like that this is more based on your personal experiences of knowing people who were ***** rather than any sort of logical dictums. You're personally invested in it and very emotionally charged. I certainly wouldn't throw **** around casually with you. However, I don't think that means that I should stop saying it ever again.

I think it means you should. Unless you're trying to disrespect me and other people who find it disrespectful and asinine. It's not cancer victims or heart attack victims fault...it's fate. **** is not part of fate unless you are a nihilistic fool.

I don't expect you to be sympathetic towards me. You don't know me at all. I do expect you to respect me, not call me names and not say "so what" and try to top it when I talk about my father dying. We can argue about it all night about which way is better for a parent to die. But i can tell you this. By the end, we all wanted my Dad to die. It was too painful. We went about our day as zombies. Is this the day? At the end we all cried but we also felt relieved that we could finally move on to another stage in our lives. It sounds horrible but I don't expect you to understand it. Just like I can't understand the horrible shock of a sudden death either.

Respect has gotta be earned--but I give it at first. Given that you weren't respecting ME enough to read through everything I wrote and give me a real reply I didn't care.

I didn't want my mother, or my father to die. If I had to watch them waste away it would be different. My one friend watched his father die and I attended the funeral--same thing--cancer. He's getting better a lot faster than I ever did. My life was screwed. But I don't know what it's like to be held back by someone dying every day. So, maybe I'd have been worse off. Who knows?

People can be in the closet about other forms of abuse as well. They can also be in the closet over diseases such as HIV/AIDS, cancer involving private areas or lung cancer which is sometimes stereotyped as something that only smokers who deserve it get.

Chup...but we don't say that in smash/gaming community predominantly.

You keep on arguing that we're misinterpreting you and calling everyone idiots. I hope that I've been more clear and thorough this time around.

Much better.

My argument was a bit hasty and ill-formed but I think it's equally hasty and ill-informed to dismiss it so completely and angrily. Not all crippled people are visibile to the naked eye. Some people have stealthy prosthetics, some you might not be able to tell are crippled until they walk, others may feel crippled by debilitating mental conditions that are not easily seen. You're trying to put **** in a special category again when I've shown it to not be as unique as you think it is. Plenty of terrible things are not visibile to the naked eyes. I've listed plenty already but another one is veterans. The mere talk of shooting, guns or murder may bring up painful memories particularly if they are suffering from PTSD.

The gaming community doesn't talk about that stuff unless we're discussing CoD. And, I doubt they play CoD if they have PTSD from warfare...and we don't tend to talk about decapitating/dismembering or quadriplegicizing people...so I'm not sure what you are getting at...and I don't think it's good to make fun of the mentally handicapped and the mentally ill...either...that's kind of obvious. Do we do that? I never told someone to take their prozac or they can't beat me...

By the way. Would it insult you if someone said something got brick'd?

No...probably not. To 'brick' something could mean a lot of things...but if you meant that you were gonna brick me? Wait...I never even heard of this word.

Noted. I still think gangbang can have connotations of **** but I am aware that the word has a different context as well. Similar to how **** can be used in a different context. Again, you insult me vigorously. Good job, it really helps convince me to agree with you and makes you seem like a reasonable guy.

It has connotations of a lot of things, but it meant what I was saying. You guys came outta nowhere and were ****ing me up. Kinda simple. It's consensual because I'm putting my ideas out here for you guys to **** up. :D

[/quote][Could have fooled me. You've taken just about every chance you've had to insult my intelligence, imply my age doesn't allow me to understand things as "adults" do, call me a mouth breathing troglodyte etc. etc.[/quote]

Yeah. I like those insults. It's like playing monkey island.

EDIT: By the way do you want to take this to personal messages or something? We've completely derailed the thread. Maybe make our own thread but iono if smashboards is the right place for this kind of discussion. Don't we have some kind of debate hall? I only go the melee related boards.

I think we're done. I don't see you having much of a response since I pretty much explained everything.
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I'm kinda pissed that a great thread like this, discussing the depth of real-world physical ability, has been derailed by this nonsense.

I actually agree with you, but I just think it's a bad habit, not something people should freak out about. You started off fine, but you're starting to sound like a radfem, get this garbage out of my SWF. It's like you're mad or something, and are spending too much time trying to win this argument harder than you already have. Just define your terms properly, call out the strawmen, explain the false analogies, and move on.

People shouldn't freak out about a lot of things but they do. Sorry, broham.

Systematic? Do rapists conspire together to do what they do? Does the "system" encourage **** despite severely punishing and shaming anyone who is even accused of it?

Lol listen to yourself. Regardless of how good your point is, claiming immunity to logical fallacies with some pretty simile has no place describing an valid/sound, or strong/cogent argument.

Aight, Steubenville. Checkmate. Or check out any 3rd world country if you're interested...Liberia is a good one! 80% **** rate.

Spiritual? Huh? Another metaphor or serious? Can't tell with you ideologues.

Metaphorical.

You win the depression olympics, grats... why are we sharing personal experiences again, as if we take anecdotes seriously...? And are you guys really trying to compare how bad people feel about various things? Your argument is basically: I feel at least as bad as you do about your parents dying, and hearing their cause of death thrown around metaphorically causes no where near as much pain as it does for ****. Neither of you have been ***** or sexually assaulted, so how could you draw the comparison with your personal experiences? Do you think you've gained some perspective on other kinds of suffering for having suffered?

Well, I've been told personally that the word hurts them and makes them extremely upset. I think that's enough for me. I used to be an idiot like you too.

Just cite the suicides for **** victims vs. suicides for people-who-are-related-to-people-who-have-died and move on, no need to adorn weak arguments with your emotional bull****.

Aight bro. I think you fell off the train too. I don't give a damn about dead parents. No one in the gaming community is talking about dead parents, or even living ones...and that's a matter of fate anyway.

Thinking "gangbangs" are non-consensual is completely understandable, and by your sarcasm about being proud of him for mastering what is probably his native language, you clearly are trying to be mean(It's ok, I'd be mad too if someone wouldn't stop with the strawman arguments). "Gangbang" is also used to describe violent gang activity, and most people think of **** as something done in back alleys with a gang. "Gangbang" doesn't imply consensuality, either, and doing a quick search around the internet (about the word, not porn) it seems it carries a connotation of being non-consensual unless specified otherwise. Why you're criticizing someone's grasp of the language for lack of knowledge of the subtleties of a word that's practically slang, I don't know.

Gangbang means a lot--just like beat can mean a trail...a note, or whatever...and maybe gangbangs are nonconsensual predominately...but they can be consensual. **** is always nonconsensual unless I'm mistaken...

 

[RockinRudy]

According to you people who are offended by immature callousness have a stick up their ***. You sound like a real authority on why people should use the word **** or not. They're not just both expressions. People who get murdered don't tend to survive the process. People who get *****, tend to. Their survival illuminates why it's offensive. People have been ***** that you may never even realize have been. You just nonchalantly talking about it is offensive because the person surviving the sexual abuse has to hear you make it sound like it's nothing.

You're the one with a stick up your ***. You can't change your language slightly to be inoffensive to people and look less stupid? All right.

I have my fun being a smart @$$ on these forums but when people that just throw that word around is immature, obviously they never knew someone who actually was *****. I personally do and people don't realize what it does to them. I mean it's serious EVEN if your playing with the word, it's a thing you don't say. If people think it's funny whether it's 4chan, 9gag, reddit or any forum for that matter that use it. I want to say I hope you burn in hell because obviously because if it hasn't happened in your life or to you it's okay to say it.

You joke now but how would you feel if your Girlfriend walked up to you one day, crying her face off and told you she got ***** and you were the first to know? Think about that.

Mod Lock this thread now it's getting out of control.

/thread

 

[Jabejazz]

You joke now but how would you feel if your Girlfriend walked up to you one day, crying her face off and told you she got ***** and you were the first to know? Think about that.

Point taken. I'd cry with her. I got jv 4 stock'd too many times to count.

 

[Signia]

Aight, Steubenville. Checkmate. Or check out any 3rd world country if you're interested...Liberia is a good one! 80% **** rate.

Checkmate my ass. To PMs!

 

[MountainGoat]

In the end, strong language will always have a place in certain situations. You can jump to whatever conclusions you want but occasional use of the word doesn't create a **** culture or shame anyone. It might be painful to be reminded but there's no way you can show that just using the word does anything more than be a painful reminder.

I'm done.

Really sorry about derailing the thread.

 

[Superspright]

http://healthland.time.com/2013/03/20/what-about-the-victim-the-steubenville-****-victims-recovery/

Check it out. I think it helps. Sort of like how people who are severely stupid cannot tell that Stephen Colbert is satire...the same way a true sexual abuser will not understand you are just kidding about your misogynistic tendency to say you '*****' so and so.