Online doesnt mean ANYTHING

[Pink Reaper]

The delay applies to both players.

I don't even see how this can be an argument. Online play takes skill, offline play takes skill. They are not exactly the same thing, but they are not too different either. Anyone that says that adding in the element of lag makes the outcome of the match random and unrelated to skill is an idiot.

The fact that both players have delay doesn't change the fact that theres no way to react fast enough to combo/follow up properly. Assume with random character X you Utilt. You would want to follow up wouldn't you? But your not even going to know how to follow up until AFTER you should have pressed the buttons. The lag makes it so you cant properly follow up because you can only know when to follow up after its too late.

 

[dguy6789]

Input delay always exists. It is just a matter of how much. It takes a certain amount of time for your inputs to go through the controller and to the console. It takes a certain amount of time for your inputs to go across the internet. It is only a matter of how long it takes. Like I said before, if the delay is too much for you to play with, then play with someone with less lag. Play with someone that has a blue circle connection quality and the game will be almost as good as playing offline.

 

[Crizthakidd]

i sorft of agree with u. some guys have only played online, and they ve played soo effing much that they rule on online. but face them face to face and theyll be intimidated, not know how to time attacks without the lag and suck. your either king of online or offline and imo the offline scene beats the online one 100x

 

[dguy6789]

i sorft of agree with u. some guys have only played online, and they ve played soo effing much that they rule on online. but face them face to face and theyll be intimidated, not know how to time attacks without the lag and suck. your either king of online or offline and imo the offline scene beats the online one 100x

I prefer to be king of both

Play offline whenever I have the chance, online when I don't, simple as that.

 

[DeliciousCake]

The delay applies to both players.

I don't even see how this can be an argument. Online play takes skill, offline play takes skill. They are not exactly the same thing, but they are not too different either. Anyone that says that adding in the element of lag makes the outcome of the match random and unrelated to skill is an idiot.

Edit: If the person you are playing with is lagging so bad that it affects the game beyond a reasonable value, just don't play with the person. If your connection is so bad that it doesn't allow you to play the game online effectively, either fix your connection or don't play online.

Hence why I said I don't play online at all. WiFi is never viable as a competitive standard UNLESS there is a central server, which there obviously isn't in Brawl. Lag will be comparatively different based on who you're playing.

 

[Lefticle]

Yes, if both players have a really good connection, there won't be a whole lot of latency in the match. HOWEVER. There will always, regardless of connection speed, be some at least minute lag in online Brawl. Alongside this, the number of people who have Brawl compared to the number of people that have Brawl and have a sufficiently speedy connection to achieve maximum freedom from latency in Brawl is very, very difficult to support your argument with.

And yes, the lag applies to both or all players contesting in a match. This does not make it legit, because when lag is introduced into a game such as Brawl, it changes the physics and strategy completely, making it essentially a different game. Someone who is a mastermind at Brawl when played in person may have trouble adjusting his motions and strategy to the lag. If he gets beaten consistently by someone who is very talented at gaging lag and adjusting to it, but who is very poor at the game while playing in person, does that mean the second player is the better player? Maybe in the game of Laggy Online Brawl, but not in the game Super Smash Bros. Brawl.

 

[Cero]

a quick and simple solution to all our lag problems:

PLAY MARIO KART WII NOW!!!
jk

but seriously...how the hlel did we get the short end of the straw when mario karters get things like zero lag, centralized servers, and a RANKING SYSTEM???

 

[Lord Viper]

but seriously...how the hlel did we get the short end of the straw when mario karters get things like zero lag, centralized servers, and a RANKING SYSTEM???

Newer game, newer stuff.

But becides the point, I thought this thread would be, "I'm sick of people just looking at Wifi games only" but it's not that, so I lose respect for this thread. <_<

 

[Roller]

The vast majority of my matches are fine. Of course I do have to keep my wii literaly about 6 inches from my router in order to keep it that way...

 

[Tristan_win]

Up to recently (for some reason my connect is horrible today) I've had play a quite a bit of online matches with little to nil lag and yes you can definitely see a clear marking of skill when you have little lag.

By little lag I mean being able to do a gliding throw. If you can do the precise timing of a gliding throw then clearly there isn't enough lag to mess with the match. However if you can't then said match should not be taken seriously as a mark of skill.

Once again another advantage the Zamus mainer have over the rest of the cast! ...and Diddy Kong and Peach and Snake and Link and Toon Link.... ._.

 

[RedMage8BT]

I'm sick of people saying this. This ISN'T Melee. They specifically tailored the game so that lag wouldn't affect the gameplay as heavily. Are you seriously too blind to see that? I have a feeling that a so-called "pro" lost one set online and started perpetuating this bull****. I've seen online matches with almost ZERO lag. If that doesn't mean anything, nothing does.

 

[HAT]

i don't really care about this argument, but i'd just like to clarify that there isn't a situation in which both players have the same delay, and there simply isn't a situation in which there is no delay at all.

this is the internet. we measure how good a connection is all the time. ****. and who's to say that it doesn't affect the game?

say your metaknight is playing an ike, and you're trying to react to an ike fsmash that starts while you're next to your opponent. between the lag of you reacting, and your input delay, you're going to get hit with that fsmash. is your opponent tricking you? no. you were prepared for that fsmash, and the lag prevented you from reacting correctly.

also, on a P2P network, there's always going to be a significant host advantage. whether it's a tenth of a second, or a thousandth of a second, the host will be better off. ..and i'd again like to clarify -> there is no argument against this. the experiential difference of you doing just as well vs. people online as you do in person doesn't mean jack ****. what matters here is the numbers.

i really just don't understand how there can be confusion here.

 

[Demon King]

I agree that in truly official competitions, tourneys, etc., playing offline should be the way to go. While lag isn't as bad as some people are making it out to be, it can affect the fight. That said, I still look at the average match like this: the winner wins, the loser loses. No excuses.

 

[EternalCrusade]

whats with all the hate? do you lose online a lot? >_>

 

[Corigames]

If you are playing a fighting game when split-second reaction time isn't required, then you aren't really playing a fighting game.

Lag kills

 

[Tsuteto]

Quick reactions? Yes, online proves nothing. Mindgames? Online can have plenty of those. For some reason I do better online, pure and simple, compared to realtime. I don't know why, but I do know that I have an easier time guessing what the person is going to do compared to how I play realtime.

Ugh, I've been awake all night. When I'm actually conscious of everything I'll give my two cents. For now though... where's some **** food...

 

[Riolu]

If someone challenges you over Wifi and they win it shows something. If you have severe lag and lose then that is another story, but with no lag, which is possible, if you lose the winner is more than likely better than you.

 

[6footninja]

Newer game, newer stuff.

Ranking systems aren't new.
Zero Lag online isn't new. (would be for Brawl, though).

It's not like it came out a year after Brawl and some new technology was used that Brawl didn't have any way to include in Wifi. Like the server/p2p system Nintendo thought was such a **** good idea. That one speaks for itself, doesn't it?

no excuses.

 

[MoldinMindz]

I agree w/ the OP. Online is pointless in a game that is "Supposed" to be about timing and precise moves. The only people I've found who like playing online, are people who aren't precise about the game, I mean who cares about a little lag when you are just shooting arrows and hitting the smash button, lol.

 

[EnigmaticCam]

I posted this at SRK, since they seem to use their online tournaments to backup their ridiculous rule system.

There are good reasons why lag is a serious hazard to overcome when it comes to competitive play.

I'll use pikachu, my main, as an example.

There are many tactics as pikachu that I can execute in a way to compensate for lag. For example, my fair->fsmash/usmash/anything is a good tactic I use a lot, because pika's fair has good priority. When the fair connects, I instinctively perform my following attack even though I'm not seeing my character hit the ground on the screen yet. This basic principle of executing tactics regardless of how quickly you're seeing the response to your controls on the screen is the best way to compensate for lag. But these are proactive tactics. The problem with lag is in reactive tactics.

A common pika technique is to dsmash and follow up with thunder if the opponent goes straight up. However, I don't want to just spam thunder after dsmash as I might have a better option or I might be punished depending on where my opponent DIed. Lag makes this really difficult though, because my opponent can actively DI or spam air dodge trying to avoid the thunder without having to watch the screen, while I have to wait until I see where my opponent goes on the screen and react appropriately. If my opponent goes straight up, and I see this on the screen and try to thunder, he will be far more successful getting away with DI or an air dodge online because lag gives him more time to avoid my thunder. Yet, had this been at a real tournament, my thunder would have been instant and he would have been less likely to avoid it.

Another problem is with chain-grabbing. As pika, I have available to me a huge amount of chain-grabbing options on many different characters. I can dthrow chaingrab, and I can fthrow chaingrab. The fthrow on some characters is the better option, but unfortunately, it's also the most difficult to execute online because of lag. Given that I have to run forward a bit after the throw to grab again, and that I have to compensate for my opponent's DI, again my opponent has the advantage of actively avoiding the grabs by spamming upb/air dodge/shine, while I have to react to what I see on the screen. With the small amount of frames I have to grab before my opponent can escape, it's much easier for him to do so with lag.

This is just one example of many for pika, and no doubt of many for all characters. Keep in mind to the many, many different opportunities in a match that a player has to react to what he sees on the screen, yet for all intents and purposes, it already happened because his reaction won't come in time due to lag, yet it more likely would have had it been at a real tournament.

 

[Sundown]

I'm sick of people saying this. This ISN'T Melee. They specifically tailored the game so that lag wouldn't affect the gameplay as heavily. Are you seriously too blind to see that? I have a feeling that a so-called "pro" lost one set online and started perpetuating this bull****. I've seen online matches with almost ZERO lag. If that doesn't mean anything, nothing does.

First of all im glad to say that theres a good discussion going on, with good points for both sides, thats good.

Second of all, i am no pro, so definetly the idea of a "pro loosing an online set and perpetuating this stuff" doesnt apply, it also doesnt apply because neither Azen, nor Ken, nor M2K, nor NO1 told me to say this stuff, i just know it from my past gaming experiences- (OMG at DOA4 and its community that also thinks that they should take online 1v1 seriously :S). So anyway, this comes from me (although im sure im not the only one, neither the first to think about it).

Third... i doubt that Brawl was designed so it could be played online, your statement (Brawl was especifically tailored so lag wouldnt apply gameplay) is actually an insult to Brawls gameplay... in my opinion. I dont think any game is made thinking on making it dumb or slow enough so lag wouldnt ruin it.

Now, on to something else that i wanted to say, i dont think it matters if both players suffer lag, my point was never that online was unfair, my point was that Online Brawl should never be considered nething close to a competitive standard. Maye both players experience the lag, i agree, so its not "unfair" but that doesnt matter, thats not the point.

The point is that both of this players are playing a subpar version of Brawl, a version, that even if it is a lot of fun (plz guys im not saying to ne1 "dont play online"), should not be used to gauge skill like so many newcomers are doing. Even if both players suffer this lag, that means both players cant play at their best, both players have to guess instead of reacting (just like in DOA people have to guess lows online, or in GG Reloaded PC people have to guess Overheads). And that makes it unvalid IMO.

Thats all im saying, i never said dont play online, i said dont use it to meassure skill. Its not the best way... IMO

 

[boshi2161]

Online matches dont mean SHI T

When will all these newcomers (NOTE: newcomers, not n00bs, im not trying to start a flamewar here) get it?

Theres so many new posters in the different character forums talking about how good they are, and then, they bust out my favorite line "oh you dont believe me? I CHALLENGE YOU ON WIFI!!!!". Omg... that line... whenever no1 believes all of this new amazing players that "beat melee pros" (yeah they all love that line as well). They bust out the "here is my Frend Code, lets play and ill show you!!!" line.

No1 gives (or at least no1 shouldnt) a *** if you are 1000-0 Online..., it doesnt prove ****, it doesnt prove you are good, and it defiently doesnt prove you are better than your opponent, so please stop with these stupid challenges "I AM BETTER THAN U" "NO URE NOT" "OK HERES MY FC; WE PLAY ONLINE AND THAT SHALL PROVE IT" "OK BIAAATCH, I LIVE IN (put state here) SO THERE SHOULDNT BE SO MUCH LAG, ITS LEGAL!!!".

No, its not legal, no, it doesnt prove ****. If you want to prove something, or show you are good, get your *** to a respected tournament and place good there.

Stop with this online nonsense, online is good for practicing and im sure its very fun to be able to play vs humans whenever and wherever, but for the love of god stop taking it like it means something.

And before you talk about CS, or competitive online PC games, this is a fighting game, where a difference in 1-3 frames means a lot.

So just stop it ok?

Hmm, sounds like you're just angry becuase you've been loosing a lot. Online play is far from perfect, but when it comes down to it, it simply is fair game. If you someone beats you in a few rounds or a high stock battle, it's becuase they're simply better than you. Making this thread isn't gunna help you, only training will.

 

[EnigmaticCam]

If you someone beats you in a few rounds or a high stock battle, it's becuase they're simply better than you.

No, they're better at "Online Brawl", which is a completely different game than "Offline Brawl".

 

[Andromeda]

I dont see whats the difference if you Brawl online with a good connection opposed to playing in the same room.

No Johns. That's the difference.

 

[Lucario2k8]

i kind of agree here, i dont find it fair that if someone has a better connection they claim to be superior i like wifi and all but it can never compete with solid real life tournaments with all players in the one place

 

[mzink*]

online does mean something but i agree tournaments in person are much different. i get a nice adrenaline rush

 

[Sundown]

Hmm, sounds like you're just angry becuase you've been loosing a lot. Online play is far from perfect, but when it comes down to it, it simply is fair game. If you someone beats you in a few rounds or a high stock battle, it's becuase they're simply better than you. Making this thread isn't gunna help you, only training will.

I dont play online Brawl bro, i dont like it.

And i wouldnt use that as an excuse, plz dont throw things like "this thread isnt gunna help you, only training will" when im talking over something completly different.

do you see me complaining about a character or something like that? no im not, im not one of the thousand different people going all around saying IC will be banned cause of chainthrows, or snake should be banned cuz of this and that, or there was even some guy that said luigi was broken. Seriously... im not writing that nor do i want to sound like that. Dont misinterpet.

All im trying to do is to warn some people about how dangerous online can be, specially for measuring skill.

EDIT: people need to learn when to use the "no johns" phrase and when not... when some1is having an online/offline debate, and when youre trying to discuss about how viable it is for meassuring skill and calling it competitive other not, phrases like "no johns" just dont fit.