Opinions For The New Tier List

[Violence]

Here's my list. It's whack as ****. Don't judge me.

Fox
Sheik
Falco
Marth
Peach
Jiggs
Falcon
Samus
ICs
Doc
Ganon

Samus4hightier

 

[MalwareDie]

Any thread started by Doc King should be deleted.

 

[EPsilon933]

Jigglypuff is not top 4/tier. She has no anti low tier capability compared to Falco/Fox/Marth/Sehik.

If we're going to look only at tournament viable characters, we're going to have to take
Donkey Kong
Luigi
Mario
Link
Pikachu
Mr Game & Watch
Roy
Young Link
Zelda
Bowser
Mewtwo
Ness
Yoshi
Kirby
Pichu
off the list.

teh icey has a good math formula for giving better characters more weight in ranking characters. If we want an accurate tier list, we're going to need to eliminate inaccuracies, aka bias. Someone should make a matchup chart of only tournament viable characters, aka
Falco
Fox
Marth
Sheik
Peach
Jigglypuff
Captain falcon
Ice Climbers
Doctor Mario
Ganondorf
Samus

 

[Doc King]

Jigglypuff is not top 4/tier. She has no anti low tier capability compared to Falco/Fox/Marth/Sehik.

If we're going to look only at tournament viable characters, we're going to have to take
Donkey Kong
Luigi
Mario
Link
Pikachu
Mr Game & Watch
Roy
Young Link
Zelda
Bowser
Mewtwo
Ness
Yoshi
Kirby
Pichu
off the list.

teh icey has a good math formula for giving better characters more weight in ranking characters. If we want an accurate tier list, we're going to need to eliminate inaccuracies, aka bias. Someone should make a matchup chart of only tournament viable characters, aka
Falco
Fox
Marth
Sheik
Peach
Jigglypuff
Captain falcon
Ice Climbers
Doctor Mario
Ganondorf
Samus

I actually think that Puff should be a top tier cause she has a lot of good techniques and wins a lot of tourneys like Wall of pain, best recovery, powerful move (rest), etc. Maybe 4th place would be good for Puff (Below Fox, Falco, and Sheik).

Also MalwareDie, no trolling please.

 

[EPsilon933]

I actually think that Puff should be a top tier cause she has a lot of good techniques and wins a lot of tourneys like Wall of pain, best recovery, powerful move (rest), etc. Maybe 4th place would be good for Puff (Below Fox, Falco, and Sheik).

Also MalwareDie, no trolling please.

That's MaNg0's Jigglypuff and Hungrybox winning tournaments, which brings up another inaccuracy; player skill. Not everyone of the top 20 players in the world are of equal skill. The argument I'm making is that we should judge a character's whole performance based on the character's collective matchups.

Also, MaNg0 is God. No one can make arguments that use MaNg0 as proof/evidence.

 

[Doc King]

That's MaNg0's Jigglypuff and Hungrybox winning tournaments, which brings up another inaccuracy; player skill. Not everyone of the top 20 players in the world are of equal skill. The argument I'm making is that we should judge a character's whole performance based on the character's collective matchups.

Also, MaNg0 is God. No one can make arguments that use MaNg0 as proof/evidence.

Your kindof right about that, like when he plays Mario, he doesn't become a high tier automatically. Although I've seen other Puffs and they've done very well in tourney play.

 

[Nygma]

Let's discuss the trolling tier list.

ICG for undisputed god tier.

If this was Facebook, I'd "Like" this.


Pichu does not do decent against Marth.....at all. You're a funny guy ICG. It's easily 70-30 or 80-20.



Jigglypuff is not top tier. When Jigglypuff mains around the world say that she is not top tier....you know that is a sign.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mep1aUW3Opk

We didnt move Peach up to the top when Armada started ****** everyone...why would we do it for Puff?

My list:

Fox
Marth
Falco
Sheik
Jigs
Falcon
Peach
Ganon
ICs
Samus
Doc


Bottom Five:

Ness (Top tier for bottom five)
Bowser
Yoshi
Pichu
Kirby

That 5 way tie for worst character in the game was the saddest thing I've ever seen portrayed in a tier list.

 

[Doc King]

If this was Facebook, I'd "Like" this.


Pichu does not do decent against Marth.....at all. You're a funny guy ICG. It's easily 70-30 or 80-20.



Jigglypuff is not top tier. When Jigglypuff mains around the world say that she is not top tier....you know that is a sign.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mep1aUW3Opk

We didnt move Peach up to the top when Armada started ****** everyone...why would we do it for Puff?

My list:

Fox
Marth
Falco
Sheik
Jigs
Falcon
Peach
Ganon
ICs
Samus
Doc


Bottom Five:

Ness (Top tier for bottom five)
Bowser
Yoshi
Pichu
Kirby

That 5 way tie for worst character in the game was the saddest thing I've ever seen portrayed in a tier list.

Pretty good tier list. Although Bowser and Yoshi should switch because Bowser is really slow and sluggish.

 

[Kason Birdman]

Fox/Falco
Sheik
Jiggs
Marth
Peach
Falcon
Ice Kids
Ganon
Samus
Doc

There you go.
New tier list

 

[Doc King]

I think that Falcon>Peach because Falcon has more power, speed, and better matchups than Peach.

 

[Kason Birdman]

Peach does better against fox and falco. Who I think are clearly somewhere in the top 3. And most people would agree.

Falcons recovery is pretty bad.
I suppose peach doesn't have options off the ledge where as falcon is pretty good off ledge.

 

[Nygma]

Bowser is better than yoshi because he has better options out of shield and his up b comes out in one frame.

Yoshis recovery is better but his on stage presence is horrible.

-can't zone
-no oos options
-weak combo ability
-no second jump (make recovery predictable)

 

[Nygma]

Falcon does not have better mus than peach.....at all.

Now that I think about it...falcon sucks.

Fox
Falco
Jigs
Marth

All **** falcon. Falcon has no options from tech chases (no shine, d smash of death) and has the worst recovery amongst top to high tier characters. Falcon relies on gimmicks and guessing and if the falcon cannot guess right...he gets destroyed.

Switch peach and falcon in mine. What was I smoking?

 

[Doc King]

Falcon's recovery isn't bad, he can falcon kick to get his 2nd jump back and he has a wall jump and stuff like that. Peach's move are very slow and predictable and she has poor matchups against Marf, Sheik, Falco, and Y. Link. It's hard for her to KO since she has to grab someone with her poor range grab and throw them to KO pretty good.

Falcon has options like Dair>Knee (good finisher), Nair>Upair>Knee, and stuff like that. Also he has the fastest running speed while being strong and powerful. Falcon is crazy when he's on the field!

 

[Shadow Huan]

Falcon does not have better mus than peach.....at all.

Now that I think about it...falcon sucks.

Fox
Falco
Jigs
Marth Sheik

All **** falcon. Falcon has no options from tech chases (no shine, d smash of death) and has the worst recovery amongst top to high tier characters. Falcon relies on gimmicks and guessing and if the falcon cannot guess right...he gets destroyed.

Switch peach and falcon in mine. What was I smoking?

Fix'd. the Marth/Falcon MU is 50/50. Sheik/Falcon is 70/30 or something.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

SS. Fox, Puff
S. Falco
A. Sheik, Marth
B. Peach, Falcon
C. ICs, Ganon
D. Samus, Doc, Luigi, Pikachu, Zelda
F. Errybody else

 

[Metal Reeper]

I think first we should all agree that talking about a new tier list is ******** as of right now.

 

[Brookman]

SS. Puff
S. Fox, Falco
A. Sheik, Marth
B. Peach, Falcon
C. ICs, Ganon
D. Samus, Doc, Luigi, Pikachu, Zelda
F. Errybody else

fiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiixed

 

[Quic]

here are my onions for the new tier list

Geeze Lovage, lets keep it serious shall we?
Here's my 2 cents.

 

[EPsilon933]

I think first we should all agree that talking about a new tier list is ******** as of right now.

Yes! Yes! So very Yes! It was pathetic ever since day 1! Oh, wait, facepalm. I read that as.

I think first we should all agree that the new tier list is ******** as of right now.

Falcon's recovery isn't bad, he can falcon kick to get his 2nd jump back and he has a wall jump and stuff like that. Peach's move are very slow and predictable and she has poor matchups against Marf, Sheik, Falco, and Y. Link. It's hard for her to KO since she has to grab someone with her poor range grab and throw them to KO pretty good.

That awesome face means you admit everything bolded out is very incorrect, right?

 

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

I dont see why we even argue about the tier list...
I mean the MBR doesnt care about our opinions...
its best to just wait til they release it...

 

[EPsilon933]

I dont see why we even argue about the tier list...
I mean the MBR doesnt care about our opinions...
its best to just wait til they release it...

Back rooms are a dictatorship. I say rebellion!

 

[Pragmatic]

Love how icg completely derails everything he touches.

LOOOOOOOOOL.

Why is anyone taking ICG seriously?

Just smile and be like "awww that's cute" and then move on.

LOOOOOOOOOOL.

I love my region. <3

 

[Theftz22]

Quality thread, quality thread.

 

[Doc King]

Yes! Yes! So very Yes! It was pathetic ever since day 1! Oh, wait, facepalm. I read that as.

I think first we should all agree that the new tier list is ******** as of right now.



That awesome face means you admit everything bolded out is very incorrect, right?

No not really. Sheik can chainthrow Peach, Falco can shine star KO peach and hit with lazers to build up damage, and Y. Link can use his 3 projectiles to confuse and stun Peach from doing her combos. Her grab range is poor as I can see it.

 

[Pragmatic]

"Confuse and stun Peach?"

-_-

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

Your lack of knowledge sadens me. how many star OKs do you see falco getting even if they're mango or zhu? And sheik can't chain throw if you believe in DI and junk.

But you even know when the chain throw cut off is for people? Also question how the f*** do you grab a peach? Every single ice climber main will love you forever if you tell us the grand serect maybe if they are dumb and stay on the ground and don't turpin and junk.

Seriously check your f***ing facts these are ALL theory not even basiced on anything I know you haven't even tested this s*** out on noobs man. come on.

Really I chalage you to study up before your next post watchs matches, test the gameplay yourself and etc. check frame data if you want.

 

[KirbyKaze]

No not really. Sheik can chainthrow Peach

For 20%

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

I thought peach got out if she died up and naired?

 

[Doc King]

I don't think that a character with slow and kindof sluggish moveset should be above a very fast and powerful character. I know Peach has strengths like her floating ability and techniques, but I don't think that she's better than C. Falcon.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

I don't think that a character with slow and kindof sluggish moveset should be above a very fast and powerful character. I know Peach has strengths like her floating ability and techniques, but I don't think that she's better than C. Falcon.

All I have to say pichu pichu pichu.

peach is a low risk high reward charcter

 

[KirbyKaze]

@ Doc King

It's fine if you think that Peach is worse than Falcon but please articulate why with real points.

A huge portion of what you've said so far regarding the characters is inaccurate or exaggerated. You cite Falco as a bad matchup for Peach but also neglect to include that Falco is also arguably Falcon's worst matchup. You cite Sheik as troublesome for Peach, but also don't include that Sheik is by and large considered easier for Peach than Falcon at high level because of her autcombos, gimps, edgeguards, and tech chases that work on Falcon (and don't work on Peach). The meager 20% CG that Sheik has on an extremely specific DI is by no means as damaging as the combos, gimps, or tech chases she has on Falcon. Similarly, Falco's combos are far more likely to kill Falcon than Peach. Shine KOs off the ceiling are common on one level and then they're largely disappearing at high level since they are extremely DI dependent.

Peach, incidentally, is one of the few characters with a decent answer to lasers that isn't "powershield" because she can float over them. Not a complete solution by any means, but it certainly makes his laser game more complicated than usual.

You've argued Falcon's recovery as a quality recovery. When it's disputably one of the worst in the game. Peach, in contrast, has an arguably top 3 recovery. At absolute worst it's top 5 because of how much versatility she has in her float and her lack of landing lag, two traits that Falcon does not have and that lead to a lot of vulnerable situations especially on stages like FD.

Peach kills more with D-smash shield pokes, CC D-smashes, Nairs, and Fairs than she does with grabs.

Other than saying Marth and Young Link are hard for her, and that Peach is slow, nothing you've said about her is correct. Other than saying Falcon has good combo finishers and a good combo game, nothing you've said about him is correct either.

 

[EPsilon933]

I don't think that a character with slow and kindof sluggish moveset should be above a very fast and powerful character. I know Peach has strengths like her floating ability and techniques, but I don't think that she's better than C. Falcon.

Floats, priority (disjointed hitboxes), shield pressure, spacing game (turnips and disjointed hitboxes), downsmash

Read KK's post for details.

 

[Nygma]

I still do not understand why people think Jigs is #1 or even #2.

Are you guys for real?

Jigglypuff is an awesome character but when you have numerous jigs players saying that she is not top tier... (Including MaNg0) that should be a clear sign. Just because two kids are good with her does not mean she warrants being an awesome character.

If hungrybox and mango were good with Doctor Mario and won all the tournaments would he be top tier? No. So why does Jigglypuff deserve top tier? Armada ***** with Peach...why isnt she top tier? You guys need to remember that hbox, mango, armada, amsash etc are almost ABOVE the rest of the meta game and are just naturally stupid smart. Honestly, I still strongly think Marth beats Jigs. Why? Because 90% of jigglypuffs mains need to learn this match up and know how to get in and marth mains don't. its easy mode. All Marth has to do is get a lead and camp and jigglypuff cannot get in. Sure IF jigglypuff can get in she can do her dmg but a good Marth will not let he rin. It's like the Zangief VS SEth MU in SF4. SEth takes loads of dmg and Znagief can do it....but is a good Seth going to let Gief in? LOL. No.

Marth is still top three without a doubt. Know why? All he has to do is grab you with his bust grab range like once or twice and hit you and tech chase you with his amazing range and disjointed hit box and he wins. Get a lead? camp the ledge and throw off your fast fallers and do stuff. It's simple and it leaves so much room for error while fox, Falco, and Sheik cannot make as many mistakes. Don't sit there and tell me "high level players dont make mistakes" because guess what? Everyone makes mistakes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ml9QjEVUp5Q

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qna80MbcAAc

http://www.youtube.com/user/yourstillwithme?feature=mhum#p/f/33/O4lgzjUU6Yk


The tier list is NOT a popularity chart.

 

[Doc King]

I can see how Peach can be good but I hate how you guys say how Falcon is bad in recovery. Someone with a kick move to gain his 2nd jump, a wall jump, etc. has no bad recovery. When you guys say that Falco has good recovery when his fire bird has a lot of beginning lag and his range is poor. You guys only think he's good at recovering because he has a few more choices than other characters. I mean his side B move can be predicted and his recovery is hugely affected by Mario and Docs side B moves (along with Fox). Really, Falcon is not a bad character, I just think that Falcon has more strengths over Peach.

 

[EPsilon933]

I can see how Peach can be good but I hate how you guys say how Falcon is bad in recovery. Someone with a kick move to gain his 2nd jump, a wall jump, etc. has no bad recovery.

Edgeguarding

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

I have a question what is currently the highest level of charcter metagame? now prove marth is top 3.

No answer the question straight on.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I can see how Peach can be good but I hate how you guys say how Falcon is bad in recovery. Someone with a kick move to gain his 2nd jump, a wall jump, etc. has no bad recovery.

Let's expand these descriptions.

He has a kick move with no priority that can be stuffed by projectiles or moves very easily and leaves him extremely vulnerable. It can't be used close to the stage, and if he's not above a certain height threshold he dies outright or is forced to recover low, where it is extremely easy to systematically hit him. Many characters have untechable answers for his low recovery.

He has a wall jump that doesn't really matter most of the time because in order to use that walljump he has to be hugging the level or double jump into it, which can be countered with the same things you'd do vs a normal low Falcon recovery.

As a bonus, his air-dodge is short distance and he has tons of landing lag from his Up+B if he cannot edgecancel it.

When you guys say that Falco has good recovery when his fire bird has a lot of beginning lag and his range is poor. You guys only think he's good at recovering because he has a few more choices than other characters. I mean his side B move can be predicted and his recovery is hugely affected by Mario and Docs side B moves (along with Fox). Really, Falcon is not a bad character, I just think that Falcon has more strengths over Peach.

Whether you agree with Falco's recovery being good or not is irrelevant for the discussion of Peach vs Falcon. But I'll address this anyway. You're saying that Falco's Side B can be predicted? If you have to "predict" their selection to beat it, I tend to think that gives the recovering player a better chance than if their recovery can just be systematically reacted to. Falcon's recovery is slow. If you take appropriate measures, you can cover pretty much everything he does (with most characters).

That's the problem with Falcon's recovery. You don't have to "predict" anything. You just wait and see what he does, and hit him. Some exceptions apply, but on the whole there's not much guesswork needed.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

I can see how Peach can be good but I hate how you guys say how Falcon is bad in recovery. Someone with a kick move to gain his 2nd jump, a wall jump, etc. has no bad recovery. When you guys say that Falco has good recovery when his fire bird has a lot of beginning lag and his range is poor. You guys only think he's good at recovering because he has a few more choices than other characters. I mean his side B move can be predicted and his recovery is hugely affected by Mario and Docs side B moves (along with Fox). Really, Falcon is not a bad character, I just think that Falcon has more strengths over Peach.

how does falcon beat grab edge and punish? if he knees he gets baired to death.

falcon's recovery is just long.

 

[CloneHat]

At low percents, Falcon's recovery is slow and has lots of landing lag.

If he gets hit far away however, he's dead. Hold edge and ledgehop bair/grab/anything him if he lands in front of you.

I must concur that Peach is better, simply because she has such reliable and safe options. She can dsmash, throw turnips, float over projectiles, fair your shield and be perfectly safe, etc.. Falcon has combos and the ability to techchase some characters, but most of his damage is from flinging himself across the screen in a wild guess.