Opinions For The New Tier List

[gm jack]

People like Ganon don't chaingrab fast fallers Tuesday, they specialize in characters with the weight of Pichu and Pikachu. There's a whole other world out there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhzEEAO0Kxk

O rly?

 

[Megatron1]

I lol'd. Mewtwo beats Pichu in that MU, what game are the smashwiki ppl playing?

but yeah, I think that Jiggs should be above Peach and Falcon but that's as high as I'd put her personally. people need to re-learn how to fight jiggs.

You wanna know how updated our matchups are?
http://www.ssbwiki.com/Character_matchups_(SSBM)

It would be nice if we had the latest matchups.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

It would be nice if you had the right link too

edit- first glance: lol @ fox 60-40 marth and sheik 70-30 marth.

also hilarious is puff's 40-60 matchups with sheik, marth, peach and ganon

 

[KirbyKaze]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhzEEAO0Kxk

O rly?

Stolen from Magus's guide:

Ganon CG percents.

Middle number in the brackets is supposed to represent relative difficulty. Lower is easier, higher is harder going up to 5. Fox is 5+ because he's stupid hard.

Falco and Fox aren't really feasible to attempt at the percents they start working (12 and 34) and probably for a good while after. Magus said at one point he doesn't try it vs Falco until about 60 in real matches because of how difficult it is to do consistently. Linguini does it periodically but only at higher percents and mostly vs DI in front or no DI.

Bowser --------- (4) ---- 0-72
Yoshi ------------ (2) ---- 0-36 (30+ make sure you grab his eyes before he spins around)
DK ---------------- (4) ---- 21-69
Ganon ---------- (3) ---- 0-67
Falco ------------- (5) --- 12-Death (250+)
Fox --------------- (5+) - 34-Death (250)
Ness ------------- (3) ---- 0-18 (Higher if they don't airdodge. Use dash grab for its duration)
Sheik ------------ (1) ---- 0-90 (80-90 is very tricky due to Sheik's skinny legs)
Link -------------- (3) ---- 0-74
Y Link ----------- (1) ---- 0-72 (Legs ftw)
Pichu ------------ (2) ---- 0-54 (Thank his bigass head for this one)
Pikachu --------- (1) ---- 0-37 (His tumble animation works very much in his favor to escape)
G&W ------------- (2) ---- 0-28
Marth ----------- (4) ---- 0-15
Roy -------------- (3) ---- 0-91 (Hooray legs!)

So yeah Pichu can definitely be CGed by Ganon. Not sure if he can KO at 54, but it wouldn't surprise me too much if he had a bogus grab attack, D-throw, U-smash KO at 54 on FD or something just because.

Also Mewtwo DEFINITELY beats Pichu in that matchup. Pichu SUCKS at dealing with Mewtwo's retreat everything and Mewtwo can KO with U-throw at silly percents. Mewtwo wins the projectile war because Pichu's hurts him. D-throw leads either to automatic combos or equally automatic tech chases into combos or more tech chases. This is compounded by Pichu being not great at avoiding grabs.

Plus generic Pichu has less range and should never hit U-smash vs Mewtwo if Mewtwo is patient and doesn't do idiotic things (like jump directly above Pichu into it). Pichu sucks at comboing Mewtwo and can't edgeguard him either. So he mostly works off arbitrary Nair KOs, which also sucks because those don't KO until like 150.

Pichu is bad.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

Really stop chain throwing a bit early and side-B into something should mess him up but pichu's recovery is hard to deal with even still i've lived from bairs at pretty high percents vs gannon it's nothing as bad as I used to think because he can't really get hold of pichu.

vs m2 I won't say mess even if i'll only fought lori's m2 (4-stocked) when I didn't know anything about the match-up yeah m2 should winother pichu can get some mindgames for up-smash also to point out I really doubt m2 can solidly tech chase with d-throw becuase he can't legitly chain throw I'm pretty sure pichu could jump out aided with good di.

but nair has decent combos on m2 well at least from what I know. I really don't see how pichu would have a lead. Also what I don't like about m2 being defencive is how unlike other walls like say marth/puff/peach whatever he's teleport lets him stop you have getting him solidly locked down even if you could punish it with prediction still I would think m2 would be harder to break down then marth like with simple baiting, projectiles, sheilding, and etc.

Don't know thinking about it makes me want to play some good m2, however something I think I should throw out there is that even when I played m2 dittos on DL64 it only lasted 10 secs longer than pichu dittos on the same stage or pichu vs mario there. Pichu isn't bad at slowly breaking through people or forcing them to approach. Again it's all about being smart pichu's mix-up, fake outs, baits, movement, pressure, tension and etc. is more than eough to win many times.

 

[Doc King]

I will aim this at you Doc. Seeing as how you have continued to be oblivious and stubborn in the past, at least acknowledge these experts and consider your argument faulty.

How am I being so stubborn over this Tier discussion? I've listened to these ppl and actually agree with some of the stuff that their saying on here like Falcon's recovery not being so great and Fox having an advantage over Falcon in the matchup. I'm sorry that I have my own opinions on Smash and I don't take critisism from ppl.

 

[Megatron1]

How am I being so stubborn over this Tier discussion? I've listened to these ppl and actually agree with some of the stuff that their saying on here like Falcon's recovery not being so great and Fox having an advantage over Falcon in the matchup. I'm sorry that I have my own opinions on Smash and I don't take critisism from ppl.

You didn't listen when Pichu's bad attributes were covered. You just decided to bring them up again. And if you don't take criticism from people, you are being a massive hypocrite. Everyone takes criticism from people. No one is immune to this system.

 

[Wo1f]

I think Falco should be switched with Marth.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

People can't understand what they don't know, party why I don't get mad. pichu>kirby unless it's vs sheik. but still not that huge of a deal.

 

[Ace55]

I was just pointing out to any Pichu-haters who happened to see your post that it isn't true. Only CG Pichu suffers from is Sheik in NTSC (hell, the ICE CLIMBERS, kings of chain grabs, can't chain grab him ).

...

Astonishing... do you play this game?

 

[gm jack]

Or read a few posts up.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Anyway, I lied.

I got so bored this morning I tested the Ganon CG vs his non-DI and DI away.

Ganon can combo U-smash on the non-DI at 54 and kill. I think because it's a CG you may need to grab attack once since your throw won't be fresh but whatever. For DI away you have to dash JC U-smash sort of fast but it combos. Kind of hard though. Granted CPU Pichu doesn't really DI so this might be wrong within about 5% or so but yeah it's certainly feasible to kill Pichu in a grab on FD. Which I find hilarious.

Also LOL WTF ICs can DEFINITELY chain grab Pichu. Their D-throw alone CGs him. I'm fairly sure they can D-throw D-smash CG like they can vs Sheik but even if they can't they can still D-throw him to like 50 and then do something to finish it.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

i'm pretty sure if they ice climber pummel wait for nana to get over her lag from grabbing you can just press the C-stick down and do the d-smash d-throw chain throw without timing it.

wouldn't the up-smash be wierd to land?it takes some time to come out and if they when bedie you yeah.

 

[Doc King]

Any1 think that Link should rise a few spots because he has pretty good options with Recovery, offense, etc.

 

[Doc King]

You didn't listen when Pichu's bad attributes were covered. You just decided to bring them up again. And if you don't take criticism from people, you are being a massive hypocrite. Everyone takes criticism from people. No one is immune to this system.

Dude, when I thought Pichu was better than Kirby you were complaining how Kirby was better than Pichu and now since I think that Kirby>Pichu you're complaining how Pichu is better than Kirby just because some random casual player thinks that. If your seriously gonna always mirror my opinions and follow other ppls opinions just to fit in then you seriously need a life.

 

[KirbyKaze]

wouldn't the up-smash be wierd to land?it takes some time to come out and if they when bedie you yeah.

it takes some time but pichu gets stunned for a while and the throw ends super fast because of pichu's weight so it's not too hard to get after a bit of practice

also Link sucks

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

I was trying it today and had problems so yeah why I said something.

Really doc king I'm going to be debating this till the end of time unless i'm proved wrong maybe if pichu had like unuseable nair or something then yeah kirby>pichu.

Really I simplely saying pichu would have a better chance of winning overall than kirby at higher levels. Like a tier suggests. Kirby is extremely gimckicky

 

[Doc King]

Link I think is decent, good recovery, good defense, pretty strong. Although I do admit that his speed is poor and he doesn't combo as good as some others.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

link is fun to rush and grab. that's his biggest problem I think.

 

[Doc King]

I was trying it today and had problems so yeah why I said something.

Really doc king I'm going to be debating this till the end of time unless i'm proved wrong maybe if pichu had like unuseable nair or something then yeah kirby>pichu.

Really I simplely saying pichu would have a better chance of winning overall than kirby at higher levels. Like a tier suggests. Kirby is extremely gimckicky

Well, Kirby has some good gimping options, he is stronger than Pichu and isn't so light that it can be killed in 2 secs or something, and his range is a lot better than Pichus and doesn't have a hard time reaching ppl.

You're not gonna win this battle so don't bother.

 

[Rappster]

=Doc King;11519168]Link I think is decent, good recovery, good defense, pretty strong. Although I do admit that his speed is poor and he doesn't combo as good as some others.[/QUOTE]

link would be mid-high tier if he wasn't really really really really really slow.
he just doesn't have an answer to camping.
or getting cg'd.
his nair and upb oos make him better than 1/3 of the cast, however.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

Well, Kirby has some good gimping options, he is stronger than Pichu and isn't so light that it can be killed in 2 secs or something, and his range is a lot better than Pichus and doesn't have a hard time reaching ppl.

HAHAHAHHAHA geuss what sunshine? everyone has good gimp options vs the people you're thinking of. tringer I disargee he can't get as many combos and has even less kill moves than pichu.

range is worthless if you can't back it up look at all that range roy has. i'd rather use pichu's nair than his fair. also kirby's lack of speed wrecks his range in a lot of ways. If he had a massive WD his f-tilt could cover lots of ground or be used way better. also think about kirby's SHFFL fair think about all the ground it covers it's doesn't do much. pichu's nair covers a LOT of ground way more than kirby's fair. with pichu's speed I feel he nearly out

also kirby fails at approach so how can he reach people? People simply only have to joggle away and he also has the slowest jumps ever. he is super easy to camp.

also pichu is super hard to get a hold of kirby he doesn't reallt move and he's an easier target so he will be easier to hit and he's dead off stage. kirby isn't much better as in taking hits. kirby is going to get grabbed more, gimped more, easier to hit and etc.


more on kirby's gimping.

first off EVERYTHING kirby can do stage like f/d-tilt pichu can do seriously just as well with bonus of his f-smash and jolts. on edge pichu's bair lasts longer and beats the same stuff but wall jump nair is mad good at times. kriby's dair if they don't metor cancel it fast is really good but if they canel it or don't straight up die then they'll make it back to stage before kirby a lot of times learned from playing kirby dittos with my borther. off stage/edge pichu's jolts being able to quickly get there is mad helpful plus his b-throw set-up kirby can't campare to. however I geuss kirby can fair/bair wall I geuss.

also lets say they're are recoverying super high up kirby loses because he can't get up there and lack of upwards range.

pichu's thunder and faster jumps are more useful. at least pichu will get some damage.

kirby's dair is all he solidly has on pichu but I've never really have said pichu is better at gimping/edge gaurding however if they lose to dair they'll lose to f-smash and that's automatic they lose at recovering if they f*** up.

 

[Doc King]

I mean Kirby has a lot more power than Pichu and so what if he's slow, Peach is slower than a freaking turtle and Ganon and Link aint that fast either. A character who's so weak and basically almost defense less should not be considered better than a character with some ok contributes. Also since Pichu is so light, chainthrows and throws become very fast and he can get killed VERY easy!

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

no you don't understand pichu combos better, hits harder, better attack in everyway but range. better killing and gets hit less and is very hard to grab it's not happening he's like fox when it comes to getting grabbed.

peach/gannon have kill moves, pressure, damaging attacks and great edge gaurd. plus they can take hits and space people out decently kirby can't do anyof thhat really.

 

[Van.]

Top:
Fox/Falco
Sheik
High:
Marth
Upper:
Jiggs
Peach
Falcon
IC's
Idc bout the mids
Neglidgible:
G&W
Yoshi
Bowser
Pichu
Truly Neglidgible:
Ness/Kirby

 

[Ace55]

Why are you having a discussion with doc king ICG? You're better than that.

 

[MalwareDie]

You're not gonna win this battle so don't bother.

Everybody >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Doc King

GTFO.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

Why are you having a discussion with doc king ICG? You're better than that.

Mostly to enlighen him on a number of things. The thing is if someone doesn't understand you expalin it right? even if they don't 100% right away you help.

I don't dislike/disrespect anyone really. Also the person you know as ICG is someone who is funny, silly, out of his mind in insaneily and is currently suffering from serious depression issues, but ICG is also serious, nice and caring and loooks for truth. If I didn't care who would I be? not the one I describle myself as. So i'd have to be a lair something in which i'm not(as in one who lies a lot or more than avaerage).


Also don't be mean to doc king he only needs to study up or learn some more. He's at least trying some. give him that.

 

[Doc King]

Everybody >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Doc King

GTFO.

Dude stop trolling man, it's not funny at all. At least im trying to help out with the smash bros community while all I see you do is say sh*t about me that's very stupid and useless for the topic and for the community. What about you, do you know anything about smash because I don't see you bringing up ideas. Also for that whole Pichu vs Kirby thing, we should just put them as even. Kirby and Pichu are the worst characters and don't have that much to contribute to tourney play.

I think the most important thing to talk about who's better in terms of all of the ties and how we can make this list look more official.

Also you ppl should know that I've only had this game for 2 years so my knowledge might be kind of limited compared to you guys.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

Doc King you sadden me. Respect people more.

pichu isn't kirby bad. I can camp kirby to death as pichu so it's impossible to win like seriously there's nothing they could do even if they wanted to. Really I think pichu is better than ness but I don't know everything about ness so I'm not debating it now. pichu has a lot going for him that most bottom tiers don't. like being fast, spamable move super safe, and a solid projetile annd recovery. pichu isn't total fail like fox when he's hit or near that bad. seriously he has everything but range and being able to take hits if he had both he'd be insane.

time doesn't judge knowledge fully you can be wise but not old or old and dumb. it simply reflects use of time.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Melee discussion saddens me. Used to be funny trolls and some cool discussions, now its Doc King (worst troll i've seen in a while) vs ICG (semi-troll) but none of the arguments are entertaining at all.

Doc King, i request a new approach with more subtle flaming and hilarious pictures.

 

[Doc King]

Well Melee discussions arent always sapossed to be all entertaining, but I will try to keep it so we can all discuss about something without it being a gigantic arguement with me and ICG.

Like we should discuss who we think is overrated and underrated on the 10th MBR tier list. For me personally I think the most overrated is probably Puff and the most underrated Mr. G&W.

 

[Pragmatic]

I wonder if Doc King is actually trolling, though.

Calling it that might be giving him too much credit.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

i think puff is the most underrated and kirby is the most overrated.

 

[Doc King]

Really? or did you mean the other way around?

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

I could believe sveet puff's only flaw really is having to be hella smart and easy to camp on some stages. puff makes it unsafe to attack it's like falcon DD but having a large hit box in front of him every now and then and you have to approach or something.

I don't know sveet puff to me feels like she may still be untapped in her metagame and being countered.

kirby is hella overated the last time his metagame stepped up was either wavedashing being discovered or when no one played as him so no one knows how to fight him.

 

[Pragmatic]

Really? or did you mean the other way around?

I tl;dr

Can both of you stop posting? Just for a little while?

Thanks.

 

[Youngling]

At least icg somewhat knows what he is talking about

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

Thank you for respecting me kind sir. I do try to only talk about things I feel I know and about the up-throw puff thing with brawl i've watched puff videos and I won't play as anyone but puff if a bralwer asks me and there's no melee/ssb/bushido blade/better game/bike to ride.

but pichu deals out punshment far better, has an easier time breaking down walls/appraoch, harder to hit/great recovery. pichu IF skilled is much better than kirby. how problem this debate keeps running into is most pichu's can't really back their s*** up because pichu isn't half as easy. kirby you can figure out in playing for a few hours and be legit.

my brother gave up trying to play as pichu like me because it's impossible to sweetspot easily like he's falco or something.

 

[KirbyKaze]

At least icg somewhat knows what he is talking about

you take that back