The Mystic Kiddo
Smash Rookie
What do you think of the character itself? Do you think they need a nerf, buff, or any adjustments at all?
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I agree for the most part, PP definitely has problems getting kills but I feel like where he really shines is once he gets you off the ledge and the guarding begins. With a proper amount of skill, you could damned near guarantee someone didn't make it back with PP.. or at least make them pay for it dearly in damage. His recovery is pretty easy to keep safe in most situations, if you fear getting spiked (which I've thought of, actually after getting hit during a Down B) try to recover from far out into high-to-mid stage. You're not 100% safe, but it makes jumping out to spike you extremely risky. If they miss, then they have to worry about recovering (and against PP that can be scary) now.. otherwise they're liable to get caught in the blades from PP going sideways a bit.In general I've been able to get lots of damage but have had difficulty getting kills. Most of my kills have been edge-guards or up-throws. Up-smash works too, but that's kinda stage dependent.
Biggest weakness is recovery. Its distance is amazing but not being able to cancel it or move downwards makes you very vulnerable, especially if recovering low since your head has no hitbox so you're very easy to spike.
I still think down-b off stage has enough potential for Piranha Plant to be amazing in some matchups, but the skill floor is pretty high for that, and if they can recover low and have a spike (e.g. Pikachu) it's often more risk than its worth.
Yeah, this is why I thought it was kinda a catch 22:The worst part of the recovery IMO is that slow, laggy fall to the ground where you're vulnerable as hell afterward.
PP can probably approach by dashing and jabbing the beam blade to approach. His jab comes out on frame 2.Too slow to be high tier, in general.
Ptooie is good, and learning how to use it properly - consistently and quickly getting the long distance on throw when you want it, when to hold it, when to use it offstage or the like - is going to be a big thing. Up-B is great and can get stage spikes when people try to challenge it. The Poison Breath is interesting but while it has potential to do huge damage when properly set up, ultimately I won't be surprised if it's not terribly useful particularly once people learn the proper amount of respect to show it. It seems it's great if you can get a grab, but then the plant has a weak grab range. Down-B can be good but it's slow and can leave you vulnerable.
It's tricky enough and it has powerful moves and great recovery, so maybe (probably?) it won't end up bottom tier, but I dunno why people think it'll be high tier without buffs. Characters with good projectiles are a problem, particularly if they are fast or have good up-close tools. For example, Cloud can throw the blade beam to force you to approach, Ptooie doesn't have enough range and the long throw takes too long, so you don't really have a long distance punish, so you approach but you're slower than him and his attacks outrange yours. What do you do in that match up?
I've found approaches are best done as a sort of compromise with PP. You're right in that he doesn't have any truly great way to just straight-up approach.. BUT, it isn't terribly difficult to use his kit to manipulate the situation into one that DOES favor an approach. It's also not that hard to approach closer into the stage because his jab, DTilt and dash attack (plus a NAir could work here too) all work for catching/punishing quick reactions. Again, no, it's not fool-proof or anything.. but I've found it works with enough consistency to where it isn't an issue.Too slow to be high tier, in general.
Ptooie is good, and learning how to use it properly - consistently and quickly getting the long distance on throw when you want it, when to hold it, when to use it offstage or the like - is going to be a big thing. Up-B is great and can get stage spikes when people try to challenge it. The Poison Breath is interesting but while it has potential to do huge damage when properly set up, ultimately I won't be surprised if it's not terribly useful particularly once people learn the proper amount of respect to show it. It seems it's great if you can get a grab, but then the plant has a weak grab range. Down-B can be good but it's slow and can leave you vulnerable.
It's tricky enough and it has powerful moves and great recovery, so maybe (probably?) it won't end up bottom tier, but I dunno why people think it'll be high tier without buffs. Characters with good projectiles are a problem, particularly if they are fast or have good up-close tools. For example, Cloud can throw the blade beam to force you to approach, Ptooie doesn't have enough range and the long throw takes too long, so you don't really have a long distance punish, so you approach but you're slower than him and his attacks outrange yours. What do you do in that match up?
Why would you say they're broken? Genuinely curious if I'm not getting r/woooshed.absolutely ****ing broken beyond belief.
Right, I'm not saying he/she/it's terrible, but your explanations don't really make it sound... great. Still not seeing it as high tier. Could be mid tier, but I'm skeptical of it being high, is all I'm saying.I've found approaches are best done as a sort of compromise with PP. You're right in that he doesn't have any truly great way to just straight-up approach.. BUT, it isn't terribly difficult to use his kit to manipulate the situation into one that DOES favor an approach. It's also not that hard to approach closer into the stage because his jab, DTilt and dash attack (plus a NAir could work here too) all work for catching/punishing quick reactions. Again, no, it's not fool-proof or anything.. but I've found it works with enough consistency to where it isn't an issue.
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I feel 'great' on that end is subjectively entirely down to a mix of your own personal playstyle / skill with that particular character, as I've been able to pull off wins more consistently on the plant than with my main (Richter) and I haven't really had approach issues. All I'm saying. Your descriptions are of specific situations with specific characters and are assuming a specific reaction. The plant, objectively on this matter, is NOT that limited in options if you get a feel for it.Right, I'm not saying he/she/it's terrible, but your explanations don't really make it sound... great. Still not seeing it as high tier. Could be mid tier, but I'm skeptical of it being high, is all I'm saying.
I mean, Wii Fit Trainer isn't top tier, and Cloud is not a great matchup for her either, but in that situation, you can hit the soccer ball at Cloud, if you have a charged Sun, it will beat the blade beam, and you're not so much slower than Cloud... Most Clouds will be forced to approach since your projectile options are just better than his projectile. Mega Man can cancel the blade beams with pellets, has good air speed if he wants to jump over it, or simply beat the blade beams with Leaf Shield. These both seem far easier than dealing with it as the plant.
Yeah, that's pretty much the size of it. Between Patooie, Down B and Side B (Poison Cloud) you can shut down a lot of stage options and limit the route of approach to a very specific area / window which opens up the perfect opp for a RAR or a good punish read otherwise.. or even just another well placed Patooie. PP is great in the air, though has a lot of landing lag, so if you can outspace his aerials and quickly find footing, he will be open for punish. That window is small and it's also likely to result in a side B coming out right before you grab or something, making you eat WAY more damage in the trade.I haven't played as him, but I've played against him. If you don't have a fast projectile to deal with him, he's pretty tough when those neutral b's are on point. Approaching is a nightmare.
This. The sheer amount of mindgames you can play with Plant is insane. Same goes for faking the patooie. People will straight up freeze or charge at you.one thing ive never seen plants do is just crouch in a scenario where you'd probably want to downb to mess with your opponent.
There is an animation difference between the two but its very subtle. Ive been having people suddenly airdodge for no reason against me lol
So for one thing I think people are having trouble grasping pp design philosophy. Ptooie and down b both supplement each others weaknesses, and one thing to note is that the bite part of down b can be done early when b is pressed before max range, so it has its own mix up. Imho, down b is the move that makes up for many of plants weaknesses in neutral. It does massive shield damage if not parried, and because you can active if immediately following a ptooie, it functions as an amazing follow up in almost every situations. This means that if plant is mixing up the opponent with ptooie, ptooie canceles, and down b , all with cloud mixed in, he is probably winning neutral. It should actually be abused. The biggest mistake I see plant players making is NOT using down b enough. Yes, it extends your hurt box, but it also happens to have more priority over most moves in the game, including peach aerials. If the plant player is skilled, trying to punish it purposely will often just get you killed. Its also plants main answer to projectiles and pressure up close. The super armor is invaluable. I used it against Snake throughout the entirety of our matches and i was beating Snakes wall clean. Also tanking nikita with the armor.After time with the plant, I'd actually put him in mid-tier. The landing lag on his aerials is a massive con in certain matchups, resulting in pretty much everything he does leaving him open for punish. His lack of kill moves isn't a huge problem with how fast he does damage and the grab boost tech does help his range, but a lot of people will start playing REALLY defensively against a PP when they get above 120% or so. PP has like, nothing, to penetrate a solid turtle-defense like a Link who has battened down or something. Patooie lacks precision a lot of other projectile characters / zoners have on their projectiles.. and even though it has a ton of knockback and hits hard.. it's slow and inaccurate.
Once you fight people who are used to fighting PP, a lot of his cross ups simply won't work anymore. Down B becomes near useless outside of the ledge and after throws, Patooie (B) is more likely to get you punished than to punish when against fast characters and/or characters with good hitboxes for walling you back. Side B gets really easy to read. His recovery leaves him SUPER vulnerable. Add in the landing lag on his aerials, a lack of kill power and an overall low speed and.. I think I overestimated the plant. He kind of melts in a lot of matchups now that people are used to him.
Down B isn't a very good move period, it's extremely easy to read and you're vulnerable if your opponent has good spacing after because your head is STILL an active hurtbox when doing that move.So for one thing I think people are having trouble grasping pp design philosophy. Ptooie and down b both supplement each others weaknesses, and one thing to note is that the bite part of down b can be done early when b is pressed before max range, so it has its own mix up. Imho, down b is the move that makes up for many of plants weaknesses in neutral. It does massive shield damage if not parried, and because you can active if immediately following a ptooie, it functions as an amazing follow up in almost every situations. This means that if plant is mixing up the opponent with ptooie, ptooie canceles, and down b , all with cloud mixed in, he is probably winning neutral. It should actually be abused. The biggest mistake I see plant players making is NOT using down b enough. Yes, it extends your hurt box, but it also happens to have more priority over most moves in the game, including peach aerials. If the plant player is skilled, trying to punish it purposely will often just get you killed. Its also plants main answer to projectiles and pressure up close. The super armor is invaluable. I used it against Snake throughout the entirety of our matches and i was beating Snakes wall clean. Also tanking nikita with the armor.
its the greatest achievement of mankind, truly perfection, its sole purpose its to convince cience that a god and overlord truly existsWhat do you think of the character itself? Do you think they need a nerf, buff, or any adjustments at all?
My thoughts:I think if they toned down the landing lag on his aerials, made Patooie have a little bit more range OR come out slightly faster and reduced the time to fully charge poison cloud.. he could be low high-tier at best. His kit by-design prevents him from ever going far into the high tier or getting close to top tier, but he definitely could be very high mid tier or low high tier if they tweaked him a little bit. As it is, his moves are really easy to punish, his mix-ups even easier to read and moves like Down B are just outright bad. There's potential in the design, to a point, but as-is he's too easy to punish and too slow overall to really warrant using him over other zoners who can play his games to a much greater extent with more overall potential.