Overcoming scrubness to play competitively.

[ShadowLink84]

Scrub = someone who is held back by personal limitations outside the scope of the game.

There is a difference between being crappy and being a scrub.

You aren't necessarily crappy if you are not following the typical characters metagame.
i.e. camping pit.
As I mentioned there was a peach player (my memory is poor) who won several tournaments and did not abide by strategies that are typical of a high level Peach.

Granted this would be true for a character that is somewhat limited, i.e. Ike but not so for characters like Peach who are versatile or does not need to have their game revolve around laser spamming or camping.
That's why i find it silly to make a general assumption on saying a player is crappy for choosing to take their character in another direction.

I mentioned at the bottom of my post that you're only a scrub once you limit yourself due to ignorance so I am glad that you agree with me on this aspect.

 

[Teczer0]

Peach in melee isn't that versatile >_>

And I agree there shouldn't be a "Right" or "Wrong" way to play a character.

Scrubs are players who refuse to allow themselves to use every option possible.

Like in melee they would think that wavedashing is a glitch and won't use it no matter what because they believe its not meant to be used or something.

Basically in order to not be an idiot/scrub start playing the game and use whatever is available to you.

Know that camping with Pit is an option available to you and use it whenever you see it helping you.

Does it mean you are forced to use camping every time because you are pit?

No of course not but it should be an option that you can allow yourself to take if need be.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Peach in melee isn't that versatile >_>

And I agree there shouldn't be a "Right" or "Wrong" way to play a character.

Scrubs are players who refuse to allow themselves to use every option possible.

Like in melee they would think that wavedashing is a glitch and won't use it no matter what because they believe its not meant to be used or something.

Basically in order to not be an idiot/scrub start playing the game and use whatever is available to you.

Know that camping with Pit is an option available to you and use it whenever you see it helping you.

Does it mean you are forced to use camping every time because you are pit?

No of course not but it should be an option that you can allow yourself to take if need be.

Exactly.
Well granted I was exaggerating about Peach a bit but you know what I mean. She does have other options available to her and they have proven successful so I don't think there should be a right or wrong way to play a character.

 

[Teczer0]

Don't worry I know what you meant I was just messing with you lol .

 

[ShadowLink84]

YOU MEANY!

Is that a kid in a fish suit in your sig?

 

[Twin Dreams]

Chiyo-chan from Azumanga Dioah


Spelling might be off...

 

[Teczer0]

YOU MEANY!

Is that a kid in a fish suit in your sig?

LMFAOOOO!!!!

Haha that was awesome

My sig is from an anime called Azumanga Daioh.

And its a penguin suit LOLOLOL

That was an awesome guess best one if heard so far.

 

[kamikaen]

I read the article, and although articles like this aren't really my favourite (discussing vague mentality, or "new way of thinking" over a specific tactic), I agree with almost all of it. I take issue with this quote, "The first step in becoming a top player is the realization that playing to win means doing whatever most increases your chances of winning." If that is the case, then you should not always play to win. Let's assume that there was a simple technique that allowed you to instantly win your game. If you play to win, you will use this method, assuming that it's truly unbeatable, to achieve your goal, correct? The game would boil down to nothing, if everyone used this technique. For many people playing competitive games, the fun in a game comes from depth, not necessarily winning. So if pressing a button, and instantly winning isn't fun (no arguments there... right?), then "using any method possible to win" won't necessarily bring you enjoyment. I apologize for my step outside of the game, into the real world, but you shouldn't throw away your free time for something that doesn't bring you enjoyment. Winning should neither be your goal nor your means, the attempt to win should be your means, and fun/enjoyment should be your goal. "Playing to win" should be more about the playing than the win. If you're playing for prizes, then just go for the win within the limits of the set rules, but the rules should be set so that everyone has fun, anyway, even if they don't win the prize.

The article suggests that there should be no line (within the limits of the game), so if you base any argument against me on the article, please don't say anything like "he didn't mean for anyone to go that far..." or, "that's already assumed." He does seem to recognize the line between inside and outside of the game, though. Back on track, if you don't use the aforementioned broken tactic, then you do draw a line somewhere. For me (and hopefully others...), this line divides the tactics that over-centralize, or sap the fun from the game, and those that don't. But I also think that a broken tactic should not be immediately banned, you need to give it a chance to be countered. So I think I've drawn my line so that the game stays fun, and it also has a chance to develop.

Yeah, so this is my first post outside of the Meet & Greet forum... shoot me. "By this definition, we all start out as scrubs, and there is certainly no shame in that."

 

[Teczer0]

IMO you don't start out a scrub.

You start out terrible at the game. You simply allow yourself to become a scrub in one way or another. Telling yourself some other excuse than, "Right now I suck and I need to think of a way to do (Insert move,tactic here)" or something along those lines.

Scrubs are players who see an aspect of the game as being something that should never be used in any sort of gameplay. If you start out you just need to learn everything so you can become a better player.

Don't tell yourself that you are a scrub, obviously you can't use things you haven't learned yet. If you just started out in melee you can't expect to Float cancel and L-cancel on point. But if you want to play better you will eventually learn it and use it. Not expect others to see your way and not use it as well.

I haven't read the article I have seen a lot of these to tell you the truth I sorta just skimmed it.

But really you don't start as a scrub you start off terrible at the game.

 

[phosphorus]

It seems that some people are misinterpreting what Sirlin is saying.

It seems to me to be more along the lines of "don't complain, learn to deal with it, and use tactics that lead to victory" rather than "just copy what the best players do"

 

[Teczer0]

...>_>

Uhh I guess I haven't been keeping up. T_T

Whatever me and Shadowlink are on the same page

And this thread was about "How to not be a scrub anymore" I think.

>_>
<_<
>_<

 

[kamikaen]

It seems that some people are misinterpreting what Sirlin is saying.

It seems to me to be more along the lines of "don't complain, learn to deal with it, and use tactics that lead to victory" rather than "just copy what the best players do"

I thought that the primary point of his argument was "use any method available to you to win".

 

[Mephianse]

How about a person who knows he will win with a certain character (Let's say Marth) but he decide to pick someone he isn't good with and he try with all his might to win the matchwith that character. Also, his oponent is not as good as him.

Does that make him a Scrub?

 

[Teczer0]

No thats just sandbagging in SWF terms.

I have come to realize sometimes people do that for a lot of different reasons.

In tourney its sometimes to not show you what he is capable of which is dumb IMO but it happens.

The other one is cuz he knows he can win if he tries so he does it because they just don't care. Or they could just be having fun because playing the same characters can get boring once in a while.

The other one which is awkward is that people are scared to lose as their main character. So they pick a different character so they can ease the pain so to speak.

 

[ph00tbag]

Apparently that person and yourself have no real notion of honour or showmanship. When you have a duel, one where you count to ten, turn and shoot, it's pretty easy to just shoot your opponent in the back of the head once he's counted to two. It takes respect for your opponent to show them the same courtesy they pay to you, namely not spamming one move that's guaranteed to hit and kill without fail and actually put effort into a fight as they are.

Call me a scrub if you must, but just pressing one thing that always yields the same results isn't much of a game to me. At least in a one button RPG, the button does different things every now and again.

If what I'm doing is just pressing one button, then figure out what to do about it or gtfo. If you're just gonna sit there and let me win, then you deserve to lose.

 

[jtowns]

This is my first post ever on Smashboards. I had been told by many people that this was a place for douche bags just saying how they were great. About how they did all of these advanced techniques. This post really spoke to me. I've been a bad sport recently in a few smashes. I lost and I blamed it on "cheap moves". Saying things like, "I'm glad there's money on the line... oh wait." The person I lost to beat me. I might have been playing badly, but I could have found a way to counter it. I realized from reading this post that there are ways to get better than people.

I just started playing Brawl after playing Melee for about a month. I think I've gotten better than I have ever been at any Smash games. Playing people on SWF Friend Finder, I'd win almost all, but I'd lose to the occasional person. I'd blame it on lag, or blame it on my girlfriend. Those are all excuses, and I think I could have overcome them. Thanks for posting this, it really spoke to me.

Yours Truly,
~Jtowns

 

[DeathNote]

This just inspired me to play my hardest every time, and to stop making excuses for my loses.

 

[CervPurp63]

a great thread i must say. i used to ***** and complain all the time about long range campers. i hated them and they still annnoy me. but i learned how to work around it instead of "making them fight me like a man". i just used counterpicks and a trap-based aggro style of play.

 

[SketchHurricane]

I'd blame it on lag, or blame it on my girlfriend. Those are all excuses, and I think I could have overcome them.

Oddly enough, those are two things that really could net you the loss regardless

 

[ThaDirtyG]

Great post!

 

[jtowns]

Oddly enough, those are two things that really could net you the loss regardless

I could punch my router and girlfriend?

 

[rabbitgod]

ugh i hate this essay

 

[kico]

Genius, Pure geniuse

 

[GoForkUrself]

First I want to state that when I said camp, I didn't mean only camp, but rather to use it at appropriate times. Anyone who purely camps isn't using their character to their full potential. Still though, if a player thought that they can do better by always being the approacher with a variety of approaches, rather than spam and be the spammer then defender, then they are doing the non-scrub thing by approaching, as that is what gives them the highest chance to win.
Anyway Shadow, you are right. I was being closed minded. If someone says they don't camp because they have a better chance of winning without it, then they aren't being a scrub. It's just from my personal experience that anyone who has told me they don't camp with Pit was because they think camping is cheap. Applying personal experiences to make a generalization and to treat it as anything more than a generalization with exceptions was pretty stupid on my part.
I made false assumptions on an entire community which is wrong on my part, and I apologize. Sorry to all those who were offended by my own ignorance. I'll try to be less ignorant in the future.

 

[Teczer0]

Don't worry playing brawl is camping.

Playing good in brawl is not approaching and camping for hours.

[/hating on brawl]

Sonic's costumes are stupid wtf his wristbands change colors? Lame

 

[Acryte]

OP paraphrased:

No johns. NO... ****ING... JOHNS. ~play on."

 

[Kayzee]

Oh wow. I'm glad I got to read this. This has changed my view of the game. From now on, I play to win.

 

[PredictablyStubborn]

This topic discussion can become stupidly misleading at times.

Playing to win- that's one thing.
but becoming better at the game- that's another thing.

In order to become better at the game, you don't play to win. You become better by playing for fun, and trying new things. You use stupid tactics, new tactics, try new patterns, etc...

But in order to win, you "play to win", taking everything you learned and putting it all into action.

Quoted from the text in OP's link:
"The unlikely moral here is that playing to win is often counter-productive. Those who love the game and play to play will uncover the unusual nuances that might be important in a tournament. Those nuances might never be important, but the “play to play” player doesn’t care. It’s all for fun, and he’s happy to accumulate whatever knowledge he can. The “play to win” player might lock himself into perfecting certain tactics/strategies/characters that will eventually be obsolete, as hard as that will be to believe at the moment. Meanwhile, the player who is able to take a step back and mess around will either discover new mountains to climb, or at least take a stab at climbing some other known mountains. The joke’s on you when his mountain turns out to be ten times higher than yours."


If this motivates you to stop whining: good.

If this makes you start seeing this game too seriously: bad.
Do that only when you want to test your skills at winning.

*edit*
And this explains why I can beat my 2 fox/falco tourney friends in Melee using ANY character as long as they don't use fox or falco. Not much of a skill I have, but I got it from trying, and sometimes even winning, with every single character against their high tiers.

You will understand more about the game by playing for fun and trying different things. Just don't do it when you're trying to win.

 

[Sandrockk]

As my first post to this forum, i would like to say HELLLLOOOOO!!!!! \(^_^)/

Anywho... I read threw the main post and thumbed threw the pages to follow and wanna say a few things. I think that playing to win is good in a tournament, but outside of that, I think its harmfull to you. If you are always playing to win, someone will eventually beat you, and probably in a way you never saw coming.

IMO, I think this is due to not having fun messing around. The more you screw around with a game, the more you find out about it. If you find out something new, you can create a counter for it. If you haven't been messing around, and missed that one strategy, then you can be smacked in the face with it. Also, if you lose the fun in a game, you will most likly lose your passion for that game. Once you lose that passion, your motivation starts to slip, and you become rusty and out of practice. Even if that happens just a small amount, someone can use that tiny opening to beat the snot out of ya.

Secondly, great post. I took a min to look at my personal pitfalls in the game and my attitude twards them, and found I have some areas to improve. My main one I noticed imeadietly was my inability to use items. Odd, I know, but I just flat out suck with them, so I keep them turned off. I remembered going to my friends house, and couldn't stand all the items and was quite flustered. Normally I sit back and rethink the situation, but I just couldn't at the time. I love to experement with many different characters, but never with items. There is also my problem with never doing throws, but usually I stay far away and use long range tactics. Which is odd cause I don't use items... I know, counterintuitive huh? I'm an odd cookie...

 

[masterspeaks]

As my first post to this forum, i would like to say HELLLLOOOOO!!!!! \(^_^)/

Anywho... I read threw the main post and thumbed threw the pages to follow and wanna say a few things. I think that playing to win is good in a tournament, but outside of that, I think its harmfull to you. If you are always playing to win, someone will eventually beat you, and probably in a way you never saw coming.

IMO, I think this is due to not having fun messing around. The more you screw around with a game, the more you find out about it. If you find out something new, you can create a counter for it. If you haven't been messing around, and missed that one strategy, then you can be smacked in the face with it. Also, if you lose the fun in a game, you will most likly lose your passion for that game. Once you lose that passion, your motivation starts to slip, and you become rusty and out of practice. Even if that happens just a small amount, someone can use that tiny opening to beat the snot out of ya.

Secondly, great post. I took a min to look at my personal pitfalls in the game and my attitude twards them, and found I have some areas to improve. My main one I noticed imeadietly was my inability to use items. Odd, I know, but I just flat out suck with them, so I keep them turned off. I remembered going to my friends house, and couldn't stand all the items and was quite flustered. Normally I sit back and rethink the situation, but I just couldn't at the time. I love to experement with many different characters, but never with items. There is also my problem with never doing throws, but usually I stay far away and use long range tactics. Which is odd cause I don't use items... I know, counterintuitive huh? I'm an odd cookie...

You kinda touched on one of the points I have been trying to make. There are people who have been replying that they can play with any character, in any fashion and win... in their little circle of friends. That is perfectly acceptable, I mean if you have a tactic that you can use among your friends and never lose why wouldn't you? However, the equations changes when you take your special talents into a tournament. Regardless of how technical or competent a player you are there is a required element of understanding tournament metagame that can only be achieved if you frequently attend tournaments, playing the best players, experiencing and creating counters to effective tactics. Although unlikely, even if some godly player with amazing timing and technical skill came out of a vacuum to play a large tournament, it is very likely he would lose simply because he would not have been exposed to the kind of tactics dedicated tournament goers have encountered.

Also, that fluster you felt was the gamer in you crying out to the randomness that items add to an otherwise competitive game. Having a high priority weapon or explosive projectile drop down on the lesser player will only be a hurdle he has to overcome if he ever decides to play competitively. Ask your friend if he would play with them turned off because at best items disrupt the flow of the game forcing you to stop in the middle of fighting to contend with some godly item so your opponent can't get it.

 

[otter]

When two people who make up their own rules meet, who's rule set do they use?

If one player bans edgeguarding in their own head and the other does not, there can never be a winner. If you don't like the game then play another.

 

[Yuna]

Apparently that person and yourself have no real notion of honour or showmanship. When you have a duel, one where you count to ten, turn and shoot, it's pretty easy to just shoot your opponent in the back of the head once he's counted to two. It takes respect for your opponent to show them the same courtesy they pay to you, namely not spamming one move that's guaranteed to hit and kill without fail and actually put effort into a fight as they are.

Call me a scrub if you must, but just pressing one thing that always yields the same results isn't much of a game to me. At least in a one button RPG, the button does different things every now and again.

Not all characters and moves are equal (if me pressing forward A in the air for a Fair is a really good move, why should I not abuse it just because your characters' Fair might not be very good?).

Not all people are equal, either. In a karate championship (and karate is big on honour), do you think the fighters go "Oh, you're not that good. You can't do 99% of what I do. I'll limit myself to only using moves and maneuvres you are able to or choose to do"?

In a gun duel, the rules are clear: Wait 'til the countdown is over, then turn around as fast as you can and shoot your opponent as fast as you can. As long as you follow the rules, you're being honourable. To shoot your opponent in the back is to cheat.

But not all duelists are equal. Some people can turn around much faster than others. Others can aim much better. Should they lower their skill to roughly the same as their opponents to be more honourable?

What if your opponent, like the gigantic scrub he is, chooses not to actually turn around and shoot blindly with his back to you? Should you still do everything in your power to win or should you be "honourable" and employ the same strategy or at least not try to aim properly to give him a bigger chance at winning?

If you pick Yoshi, should I have to pick a Low Tier character to give you a chance or can I just go with my Brawl Mains Toon Link and Marth and proceed to destroy you? If you're just a bad player and don't know how to combo or edgeguard properly, should I just ignore comboing and edgeguarding and lower my level of play to yours to be more honourable?

If you just choose not to use Marth's tippered moves (either through laziness of "pure honour"), should I lower my skill level so that I never tipper you?

If you play as Toon Link and choose not to use his projectiles, should I also not use them despite his campability being one of the best, if not the best, in the game?

The rules of Smash (Brawl) are simple:
* Pick a character
* Do anything (that's not banned) you can to win
* Screw your opponent, who cares if they suck or are a scrub?

By th eway, spamming the same move(s) over and over is punishable by the game itself now if you haven't noticed yet.

 

[Yuna]

This topic discussion can become stupidly misleading at times.

Playing to win- that's one thing.
but becoming better at the game- that's another thing.

In order to become better at the game, you don't play to win. You become better by playing for fun, and trying new things. You use stupid tactics, new tactics, try new patterns, etc...

In order to become better, you play the game to become better. This involves a lot of things.

Playing to win and playing for fun are not mutually exclusive. Playing to win can be (and is) fun as well.

Playing to win = Simply doing everything in your power to win.
Playing to become better = Using everything you can to become better, trying out new things, trying out old things, learning from your opponents

In playing to win and become better, playing around with stupid tactics and adapting to stupid tactics and devising strategies and tactics around them is all part of it. You cannot play to win and to become better if you simply play against "the most commons strategies and tactics".

If you do, then you might one day be destroyed by someone if they just use "uncommon" tactics and strats. Playing to win is not mutually exclusive to messing around with uncommon tactics and strategies.

But in order to win, you "play to win", taking everything you learned and putting it all into action.

You can't play to win if you haven't played to become better and become good enough to actually win. If so, then you're attempting to win but you just suck too much to.

If this motivates you to stop whining: good.

If this makes you start seeing this game too seriously: bad.
Do that only when you want to test your skills at winning.

Who are you to tell people when they're taking the game "too seriously"?

And this explains why I can beat my 2 fox/falco tourney friends in Melee using ANY character as long as they don't use fox or falco. Not much of a skill I have, but I got it from trying, and sometimes even winning, with every single character against their high tiers.

Or, they're just not that good.

You will understand more about the game by playing for fun and trying different things. Just don't do it when you're trying to win.

I play to win, play to become better and play to have fun all at the same time. But I guess I'm just awesome that way.

 

[uremog]

I'm really tired of seeing Sirlin quoted around here. Don't post his stuff unless you find something that he posts about smashbrothers or something similar. Street fighter is a very different game. I played CvS2 at a near competitive level (I played it alot and while I didn't play tournaments I played against people who did compete and placed highly. They were better than me but I was good enough to keep it close and win about 1/4 of the time against top local players). And it is so different than Smash that it is ridiculous. There are no physics exploits, or glitches to be taken advantage of. The most you can do is add some invincibility frames to a special move if your timing is very precise. So thats a pretty big difference. There are also, as far as I know but I could be wrong, no easily abused infinite combos such as Dedede's chain grab.

Street Fighter also does not have anything like the projectiles prevalant in Melee. If someone sat back in a corner and repeatedly threw fireballs they would be abused. You can dodge every one of them and jump in with a combo starter. Wolf or Pit's projectiles are not so easily dealt with. Turtling in a streetfighter game is not such a dominant tactic that it reduces high level play to projectile wars.

Here is the tl:dr version. This article was written about street fighter which is so vastly different from Smash that I don't think it really is useful in a smash community. If he wrote something about smash or games with major physics exploits (Mario Kart perhaps) then maybe it would be more relevant.

i believe it was an article about playing to win, not winning at street fighter.

it makes no difference that smash is such a different game from SF or MVC. non-banned exploits have no bearing on any of this (e.g.: roll canceling). neither does the pro-camping style being used now (which is also very viable in ST. see vs. honda strats).

the competitive nature is what makes it applicable here. there are winners and losers in smash, determined by the players' actions, which makes smash a competitive game. the nature of competition transcends the mechanics of any of these games. given the influx of new people, i'd say it's very appropriate to want them to read this.

 

[JRAFF]

I have a weird problem with fighting games... particularly SSB.

I KNOW in my head, right now, that there really aren't any moves that are unfair to use. If you can win by spamming a move or chain-throwing... there's really nothing wrong with that. You're playing to win.

But when I'm actually playing the game and I get beaten by things like that, I'll get angry and frustrated and swear at my TV. Haha.

So basically, I think this guy makes a lot of sense and I agree with him on pretty much everything, but I have trouble actually putting those beliefs into practice.

 

[Twin Dreams]

I have a weird problem with fighting games... particularly SSB.

I KNOW in my head, right now, that there really aren't any moves that are unfair to use. If you can win by spamming a move or chain-throwing... there's really nothing wrong with that. You're playing to win.

But when I'm actually playing the game and I get beaten by things like that, I'll get angry and frustrated and swear at my TV. Haha.

So basically, I think this guy makes a lot of sense and I agree with him on pretty much everything, but I have trouble actually putting those beliefs into practice.

It's ok to get angry when they are used against you. (Rather, it's ok as long as you vent your anger in a healthy way.)



He's only saying that it is self-defeating to NOT use the best technique to win.

 

[JRAFF]

Haha. I guess at least swearing is the only thing I do to vent my anger.

At least I haven't broken controllers I guess.

And I also always realize after the matches are over that the other dude was probably just better than me... and I always send a message to them if I can.

 

[SketchHurricane]

Playing to win and playing for fun are not mutually exclusive. Playing to win can be (and is) fun as well...

I play to win, play to become better and play to have fun all at the same time. But I guess I'm just awesome that way.

This hits home, and I wanted to say it but couldn't find the right words. Certain people equate playing to win with abandoning fun to become a stone-faced killer. I guess they don't realize that playing to win creates the most fun competitive people can have at a game. Having fun is subjective, and is thus not limited by style.

The text from OP's link claims that playing to win limits you to perfecting certain strategies while "fun" players discover new ones, but practicing one technique has nothing to do with actually playing to win. Anyone can practice one technique over and over, simply because they want to become good at it, they could be a scrub or a pro or anything in between. Instead, what your talking about is merely the difference between playing smart, or playing foolish. A smart player goes into battle with surprise tactics right along side the tried and true ones, and this has nothing to do with whether or not they are playing to win.

In effect, that text is saying that the person playing to win is the one limiting their self, but the entire point of the article is the exact opposite: to discourage players from stupidly abandoning the tactics that apparently win games. Playing for fun is just that and carries no negative; Playing to win means focusing EVERYTHING you have on victory and that alone.

 

[Reaver197]

There's just one issue about this thread. I don't think Sirlin's writings are applicable to Brawl because I don't think Sirlin would consider Brawl a competitive game. Judging from what has said and his experience with competitive games, I'm not quite sure what he would even think about Melee.

 

[Yuna]

There's just one issue about this thread. I don't think Sirlin's writings are applicable to Brawl because I don't think Sirlin would consider Brawl a competitive game. Judging from what has said and his experience with competitive games, I'm not quite sure what he would even think about Melee.

He talks about competitive gaming in general. What he personally thinks is a competitively viable game or isn't one is irrelevant.