Palutena Custom Move Discussion

[InfinityCollision]

We have Warp ledge cancels, Jump Glide bouncing, Super Speed shenanigans/SSS, infinite Lightweight... How long til we get some janky Rocket Jump and neutral B techs?

It is a pretty interesting trick, I'll give it that. The delayed version is likely where the real power of that tech lies given the option for approaching bairs, crossups, and nigh unpunishable retreats. The immediate bounce is pretty funky for mindgames but probably not that useful in practice.

 

[NairWizard]

As you know, @ Amazing Ampharos has been trying to coordinate an easy and convenient method for legalizing custom moves in tournaments. In order for this method to work, each character must have 8 "standard" custom loadouts (not including 1111, the default set) for quick selection at tournaments. 2 slots will remain open in each Wii U for uploading custom sets outside of these 8.

Even though Palutena's customs are unlocked by default, we need to choose 8 custom sets to make the custom selection process smooth. As Palutena mains, it is our civic duty to assist in the name of customs; this is a character who can truly show the depth and value of custom moves. We don't want to be the reason that people want customs banned at tournaments because "Palutenas take too much time to select their movesets."

Please make all suggestions in a 4-digit format (Neutral, Side, Up, Down special), such as 1111, the default set, but do not suggest the default set as it is available on every Wii U anyway.

I will start by suggesting three sets that I believe to be very strong

2322 - this is the aggressive set, and probably the coolest one that Palutena can make. Explosive Flame + Super Speed + Jump Glide + Lightweight gives her the most movement and approach options (Explosive Flame is a goodmixup out of Super Speed).
2122 - the same set as above but with Reflect Barrier instead of Super Speed--for use against characters with lots of projectiles (or useful projectiles) like Samus and Megaman.
2312 - the aggressive set but with Warp instead of Jump Glide--for use against characters with strong edgeguarding, such as Pikachu.

Celestial Firework is probably fairly strong in some matchups too, and Counter is always good, so let's get some discussion going!

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Man, couldn't wait another 39 minutes for me to make this one? Anyway, that's fine, but consider this like the OP:

Welcome to the official Smashboards Standard Custom Set project. In brief, this project is designed to be a logistical solution to using custom movesets in tournaments by filling many of the in-game slots with the most popular and powerful sets for each character so they can be quickly selected without further 3ds import. This will allow tournaments with customizations on to save large amounts of time throughout the event. More details about the project's ideas and mission can be found here:

http://smashboards.com/threads/project-proposal-we-can-make-custom-moves-fast-easy-and-legal.379555/

Our goal here is to find out what the most popular and powerful sets are for your particular character the best way we know how: asking you the mains of this character. To be clear, we're not talking about disallowing any particular custom sets or even imposing any rules in general; we're talking about making sure the popular and powerful options are simply accessible quickly in a tournament environment as our sole mission. We need up to three critical sets that represent the best options your character has that have wide general utility and from there to fill up to slot 6 with supplemental movesets that will cover less mainstream, more match-up specific, or even teams sets. Slots 7 and 8 are reserved for 2222 and 3333 to allow all moves to be explored more easily in the new metagame, and slots 9 and 10 are left open for 3ds import of non-standard sets.

Please list all movesets in the order NSUD, that is neutral special, side special, up special, and down special. This four digit code will be the naming convention so players can quickly and easily identify which moveset is which.

I know for many characters the default moveset, 1111, is a powerful and useful option. However, it should not be included; the game allows default to be picked regardless of what custom options are prepared so including it does not add any additional options to players.

I further know that some characters may find six slots a large number to fill. Others may find six very limiting. Do your best to pick out the overall six most likely to be picked even if some good stuff has to be left on the table or if some more experimental sets have to be included to fill out six. Every set included is time saved in tournament when that set would be picked, and we want to make the best use we can of these slots.

I would ask that everyone please be respectful of each other's opinions; this game is young, and the metagame is still very much forming so we are likely to each perceive it differently. This project will be revisited throughout the game's lifespan and revised to properly include the most mainstream movesets at the time. What we want for now is what will be commonly selected for now, and don't worry, other options are not being discriminated against as those last two slots are left open for 3ds transfer for a reason. This first version of this project will be refined throughout the rest of the year, but I hope to have a very rough draft up and usable by December 5 so TOs who wish to use the results of this project will have something to plug in for that weekend's worth of events. Thank you for your cooperation in this project, and we look forward to making sure the most useful options are quickly available for your character under this system.

As a specific note, since Palutena's custom specials are unlocked by default, up to slot 8 can be used by supplemental movesets if you feel you need them. It is not necessary to ensure all players can use every Palutena special since that's already possible, but you guys may decide you don't need that many and you don't have to take them.

 

[NairWizard]

Man, couldn't wait another 39 minutes for me to make this one? Anyway, that's fine, but consider this like the OP:

Grand Finals sets have been decided in 39 minutes, my friend.

Also, I actually wasn't aware that you were making these until just this moment. My bad.

 

[TsuKiyoMe]

... why did we make this thread & sticky it?

http://smashboards.com/threads/optimizing-palutenas-special-moves.371667/

 

[NairWizard]

... why did we make this thread & sticky it?

http://smashboards.com/threads/optimizing-palutenas-special-moves.371667/

Whoops, I looked for a thread like that, but didn't find one. Double my mistake. But I'll consolidate the OP with whatever conclusions we come to from both threads.

 

[NairWizard]

Didn't find this thread before making the stickied one. You guys can continue discussing optimal options in here. I'll consolidate the thoughts found in this topic and move them to the sticky at the end.

 

[evmaxy54]

Good luck picking 10! :D

 

[chipndip]

In all honesty, her standard move set is viable enough. Counter is good because her n-air is garbage for defensive/safe maneuvers, her teleport goes straight through peoples' gimping attempts, her reflect is always a solid pick (best reflect in the game imo), and all her neutral b moves are garbage, but AR is the least so.

 

[NairWizard]

In all honesty, her standard move set is viable enough. Counter is good because her n-air is garbage for defensive/safe maneuvers, her teleport goes straight through peoples' gimping attempts, her reflect is always a solid pick (best reflect in the game imo), and all her neutral b moves are garbage, but AR is the least so.

This topic is about picking her best custom sets. While the default set has merits, it is definitely *not* her best custom set. Super Speed alone probably makes her jump a tier or two in viability, as good as Reflect Barrier is in some matchups (it's completely dead in others). Her Counter is OK, but it's one of the worst counters in the game: Celestial Firework does a better job of countering grounded approaches, and Lightweight substantially improves her ability to net KOs when %s get high. Explosive Flame is way better than Autoreticle too, as you can JC EF out of Super Speed to grab people.

I don't think this is an appropriate place to discuss the merits of going all default, because there are other options which are simply better.

 

[mimgrim]

Didn't find this thread before making the stickied one. You guys can continue discussing optimal options in here. I'll consolidate the thoughts found in this topic and move them to the sticky at the end.

How did yours even get stickied when this thread hasn't gotten stickied yet?

@ KuroganeHammer is it possible to get a merge, seeing as both thread are going over the same thing?

 

[NairWizard]

How did yours even get stickied when this thread hasn't gotten stickied yet?

@ KuroganeHammer is it possible to get a merge, seeing as both thread are going over the same thing?

All the threads that Amazing Ampharos made or posted in got stickied as part of the customs project.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Stuck, merged and changed the title to better reflect what the topic is about. (the old title was kinda ****ty anyway)

 

[Rashid]

...So I assume the "voting"/discussion for AA's project goes here? In that case... Well, I have nothing special to contribute. I usually switch between three sets: default (super defensive), 2133 (balanced) and 1322 (aggressive). You guys already covered everything, so here're my 2 fils.

 

[rpgcaster]

1322 or 1312 are usually my go to. I personally just don't like explosive flame, and feel as though Lightweight and Super Speed are the best in all matchups. Reflect is nice but not really needed as much as the movement options gains from Super Speed and Lightweight

 

[Cap'nChreest]

1322 is the one I use. Default isn't bad in certain match-ups.

 

[TsuKiyoMe]

I run 7 setups

1. Default
2. Autoreticle/Jump Glide/Super Speed/Lightweight - Standard setup for when I don't 100% know the MU
3. Explosive Flame/Jump Glide/Super Speed/Lightweight - Against Sheik, Diddy, etc. as AR is worthless from Neutral
4. #2 with Warp based on stage I want to CP or Glide is just bad in the MU.
5. #2 with Rocket Jump for certain MUs (Heavy Characters w/ Poor Offstage, or characters like Marth that are easily edge guarded)
6. #3 w/ Warp
7. #3 w/ Rocket Jump

I don't really see a reason to run any other setups besides maybe Default with Lightweight or a random Counter snapped to one of the setups vs Shulk or Ike

 

[Rashid]

I run 7 setups

1. Default
2. Autoreticle/Jump Glide/Super Speed/Lightweight - Standard setup for when I don't 100% know the MU
3. Explosive Flame/Jump Glide/Super Speed/Lightweight - Against Sheik, Diddy, etc. as AR is worthless from Neutral
4. #2 with Warp based on stage I want to CP or Glide is just bad in the MU.
5. #2 with Rocket Jump for certain MUs (Heavy Characters w/ Poor Offstage, or characters like Marth that are easily edge guarded)
6. #3 w/ Warp
7. #3 w/ Rocket Jump

I don't really see a reason to run any other setups besides maybe Default with Lightweight or a random Counter snapped to one of the setups vs Shulk or Ike

So to "translate" (for the sake of AA's project), these are @ TsuKiyoMe 's general sets:

• 1322
• 2322

And these are match-up specific (or something)

• 1312
• 1332
• 2312
• 2332

 

[mimgrim]

2312 is my general set-up.

 

[NairWizard]

Posted mine before the threads got merged, but I had:

2322 - this is the aggressive set, and probably the coolest one that Palutena can make. Explosive Flame + Super Speed + Jump Glide + Lightweight gives her the most movement and approach options (Explosive Flame is a goodmixup out of Super Speed).
2122 - the same set as above but with Reflect Barrier instead of Super Speed--for use against characters with lots of projectiles (or useful projectiles) like Samus and Megaman.
2312 - the aggressive set but with Warp instead of Jump Glide--for use against characters with strong edgeguarding, such as Pikachu.

listed.

I think that Reflect Barrier is way better than Rocket Jump personally. Completely shuts down certain mid-tiers and is worth taking sometimes.

To speed discussion along and consolidating some thoughts, I think our 6 sets should be:
1322
1332
2322
2312
2311
2122

These two sets are required by the project:
2222
3333

Anyone have objections or thoughts to add?
Remember that you can bring your own sets as well; this is Palutena, after all, her sets are unlocked by default. This is just for convenience.

 

[takai]

I think Counter is a pretty critical move to Palutena's overall fighting style, so I use it quite often.

Angelic missile is great when it hits, and you can use it multiple times in the air. It's also a good recovery off stage and can knockback players who are hanging out near the edge trying to KO you.

I'm still trying to find the best move set, but since you can't customize online in For Glory, I've just stuck with default.

After reading through this thread however, I'll start testing out sets to see what works best.

Also I love Celestia Fireworks, when someone's damage is high enough, it can usually KO them if you hit them just right. But that's it's only down side, it has a very small range. You have to be up close.

 

[mimgrim]

I would say 2312 is more of a mix set then an aggressive set. Wrap provides Palutena a very safe recovery ana good get-out-of-jail card. Lightweight is both good for offense and defense. Super Speed is offense. Explosive Flame is more of a defensive tool.

 

[NairWizard]

Lightweight actually decreases your defense because you take more damage, so it's really more of an offensive tool. You don't generally use its mobility to get away from opponents (it makes followups etc. easier on the flipside).

Explosive Flame is also more offensive imo. It's hard to catch approaching opponents with it because of its set distance, but you can use it as a mixup out of Super Speed which gives you a jump-cancelled grab option, which is fantastic.

Warp is indeed defensive.

 

[Thinkaman]

I've been playing a lot of Palutena in a variety of matchups against skilled opponents. Imo dominant options have clearly emerged.

Explosive Flame is better than Auto-Reticule in every matchup. Explosive Flame is hardly a great move, but its edgeguard utility alone outmatches anything Auto-Reticule has to offer. Explosive Flame also stuffs certain high-commitment rushing approaches and zoning projectiles, and is more useful out of Super Speed. Heavenly Light is trash tier.

Super Speed is patently absurd and is the main reason people should play this character. With a GCN controller, I'm prepared to say it is the single best move in the game. Reflect Barrier is a good move by normal standards, but Super Speed is god-tier, it's no contest. Angelic Missile is trash tier.

I was previous split between Jump Glide and Warp, but Warp slowly proved more and more superior until current day, where I can't think of a single matchup or stage I'd prefer Jump Glide for. Superior vertical recovery is important for maximizing Palutena's otherwise fantastic off-stage play, the ability to reset to neutral freely is huge, and ledge cancels offer far more offensive utility than any of the dubious glide approach gimmicks. Rocket Jump isn't a bad move, but the spike isn't faster than her dair and it's not worth giving up Jump Glide for, much less Warp.

I was also previously split between Counter and Lightweight. (I've been fairly sure for awhile now that any matchup where you'd enjoy Firework, you'd actually prefer Counter.) However, Lightweight has time and time again proven to just be overwhelming in most matchups, whereas Counter has frequently failed to connect its hitbox on activation. I just can't see myself ever giving up Lightweight atm.


What clinches it is how intense the synergy is between all 4 moves:

• Wavebounced Explosive Flame out of Super Speed is absurd.
• Ledge-cancelled Warp to Explosive Flame edgeguard is absurd.
• Ledge-cancelled Warp to buffered reverse Super Speed is absurd.
  • I can't emphasize this one enough. Palutena is now Dhalsim.
• Lightweight's ability to let you quickly place Explosive Flames at virtually any recovery height is absurd.
• Super Speed, Lightweight, and Warp let you attack off-stage EXTREMELY aggressively.
• Super Speed and Warp cover Lightweight's cooldown.
• Lightweight and Warp cover Super Speed's cooldown.

tl;dr -- After playing a ton of Palutena, I can't think of a single matchup (on any stage) that I'd run anything other than 2312.

 

[TsuKiyoMe]

I like Auto Reticle for slower matchups (Dedede, Donkey Kong, Bowser, etc.). Exception is Mac. For most of the "Top Tiers", Explosive Flame is the pick though so I'd ask who you faced. I like it vs Diddy, Rosalina, Sheik, etc.

I'm largely starting to agree with you though about Jump Glide. My interest in it is starting to fade. The only use for it any more is to Glide Bounce an FSmash but once your opponent realizes it's an option, it doesn't work out so well. I have been leaning more towards the setup you've been playing against the people I've been playing.

That said, I can't get in as much practice as I'd like with the 2312 setup or any custom setup because my region is dominated with people now who are Anti-Customs so I'm forced to stick with Default. Keep talking to Apex staff and asking if Palutena can get her customs because for the most part, I kind of agree with you that Super Speed is one of the best moves in the game (I'm not downright going to say it's the Best because it isn't the best move in every situation, unlike Shuttle Loop) and she really should have it to compete.

 

[Starbound]

I'm in agreement with TsuKiyoMe and Thinkaman with their setups.

2312 is the main set with the remaining being variations on that set.

2312, 2322, 2332, 1312, 1322 and 1332 get my votes

On a side note, I'm amazed at how totally useless Heavenly Light is. I figured it'd be better than her other options in fighting Master Hand et al. but the move still managed to blow chunks due to the endlag of it.

 

[InfinityCollision]

Palutena has so many options for dealing with projectiles that Reflect Barrier's viability is reduced even before weighing it against the incredible strengths of Super Speed. The ability to space and reflect with it is nice, but a game-changing rushdown ability on a 5 second timer is really, really nice.

I will also throw my hat in for the *3*2 sets, obviously excluding neutral 3 since it's complete ass in a competitive setting. That gives us exactly 6 configurations to work with. If we want to include a set or two deviating from the SS/LW combo, I'd suggest dropping the sets that use Rocket Jump.

 

[Thinkaman]

Me calling Super Speed the best move in the game is cheating, because it is including all six million options she can do out of it, including grab and invincible dash attack.

Literally her entire moveset is "included" in it, and there is no move on any opponent that just "beats" all Super Speed options.


I can see an argument being made for Counter, even if I won't be the one to make it. It does have significant Super Speed synergy; it is a robust Super Speed option for moves with invincibility or super armor.

While I appreciate Rocket Jump, it seems more plausible that I'd be sooner willing to sometimes sacrifice Lightweight for Counter, than Warp for Rocket Jump.


Everyday I am more convinced about Explosive Flame, though I will keep an open mind about AR.

 

[NairWizard]

Doesn't sound like anyone is actually disagreeing, so let's just proceed with what was suggested.

For what it's worth, I do think that Reflect Barrier is worth more than Super Speed against projectile characters, but I won't bother to make that argument as it is for the most part academic (if you find yourself more comfortable using Super Speed, then go ahead; my theory shouldn't change your comfort level), as again, this is Palutena, and you can take a few seconds to make any set you want in tournament anyway, if you dislike the given options.

 

[Hyrule Candy]

Don't judge me but I actually love heavenly light. On battlefield its useful for the platforms
I also use it for some specific MUs where the recovery has to go from above. Also during the situational shieldbreak, you can get damage and then get the kill. The wind box is useful for some MUs when they to recover like little Mac, and bad sweetspotted recoveries.

Angelic missle is godlike. The knock back is so strong and has good range. It's a good recovery too and I think it's more reliable than Fsmash. U can also do tech changes and the range is great. It's great for pressure 2.

 

[NairWizard]

Given the information about vulnerability at the beginning of ledge snap animations, I think it's safe to say that Jump Glide is a better recovery than Warp. Jump Glide -> attack onstage (conserving the Super Speed) doesn't get spiked, whereas Warp with its lack of hitbox does if you snap the ledge, and if you don't snap the ledge there's enough endlag that you can still get hit by a followup up-air or f-air. Whether this makes Jump Glide superior to Warp overall or not is still up in the air, since Warp still escapes juggles better, but in matchups such as vs. Ike or Charizard, I would almost certainly take Jump Glide now.

 

[InfinityCollision]

Is Warp's startup to ledge snap time slow enough that you can punish it on reaction (disregarding characters like Zard that have crazy long lingering hitboxes for a moment)? I don't know the frame data for Warp off hand.

@ KuroganeHammer plz assist

Ike seems bad either way, Tempest could potentially punish Jump Glide pretty well.

 

[NairWizard]

Warp's startup seems pretty long to me, but frame data would be nice.

And that's true, I forgot about Tempest in a customs environment. You would probably have to use Super Speed shenanigans against Ike and jump over him entirely (always DI up I guess).

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Warp is like, instant lol

It's significantly faster than Ferrari's Wind

Buuuuuuuuttttttttt I don't have the data atm sorry

 

[MrEh]

Honestly, if you have Superspeed (which you probably do), you can just recover that way and not worry. Superspeed is crazy amazing.

Spoiler

I use 2333. I'm a fraud.

 

[Rashid]

Honestly, if you have Superspeed (which you probably do), you can just recover that way and not worry. Superspeed is crazy amazing.

Spoiler

I use 2333. I'm a fraud.

Well, to be fair, Celestial Fireworks is pretty radical. I almost always use it. RJ is usable if you have SS to cover horizontal distance. Plus it's completely disrespectful yet satisfying to spike someone with it. (especially since Pale Turnip can't do much against some characters whose bodies hang too low when grabbing the ledge)

 

[Thinkaman]

I find giving up Warp an increasingly hard sell.

Edge-cancelled Warp to Super Speed behind an opponent is too fancy. We Dhalsim now.

Edit:
I also can't see myself giving up Lightweight, but I'm still intrigued by Counter and Firework.

 

[Djent]

Does ledge snap vulnerability significantly impact your opinions of Warp? I still think it's worth it, but perhaps not against the few characters who can really abuse this.

*kablow!*

EDIT: NVM, this was discussed already. I'm leaving this clever use of character icons here.

 

[Salad Bowl]

I actually prefer angelic missile. Its fairly strong and kills early and can also be used as a recovery. Its also good for tech chases and its more reliable than fsmash. It is legit a better fsmash

 

[mimgrim]

Super Speed is better than Angelic Missile in every possible way.

http://smashboards.com/threads/supe...ed-to-stop-worrying-and-love-the-bair.374449/

That's just a small portion of why.