Palutena's future is through her customs. Customs don't seem to have a future however.

[JayWon]

Guys. We need to step it up a bit vocally. After Evo, the chances of customs continuing in being part of Smash 4's meta seems unlikely when Zero/Dabuz/Esam tweet disfavorable opinions about customs.

For the most part, I agree. All the common controversial custom moves like Heavyskull Bash, DK Cyclone, Trip Sapling, Luma Warp/Bits, etc., are pretty dumb and janky. For the most part, a handful of custom moves honestly seem to be made without as much quality care and thought due to limited resources/time; some custom moves feel rushed, lazily changing some properties and slapped some janky windbox with logically defying physics for ****s and giggles. (I don't blame the developers. It's understandable if custom moves couldn't be a high priority. The core game came out great!)

As a Palutena main, the future of Palutena is honestly through her custom moves... and I just CANNOT let the Smash community destroy her future! I honestly believe Palutena's ****ty normal moves were designed with Lightweight as the original foundation. Sure under lightweight we can overwhelmingly be all over the place but all her tilts, smashes, whiffed dash attack / dash grab completely stops her momentum and gives plenty of time to punish with a charge smash attack. All of her ****ty normals (including her 1 frame tiny d-air) all of a sudden become acceptable/bearable/tolerable/appropriate and MAKES SENSE under Lightweight. Her lackluster pivot F-tilt actually complements her playstyle when she's whizzing by with Lightweight.

I'm sorry to say but Palutena is straight up done competitively if the smash community universally officially completely agree to disregard customs forever. After EVO I think the discussion for custom moves future will be a big deal. I urge you all to see this as a big deal too. Don't just be voiceless and accept Palutena's true beautiful potential.

Some arguments that defend at least custom Palutena:
-Her custom moves are intricate and designed thoughtfully. You can tell they actually put a lot of time into them unlike other custom moves. Custom Palutena brings something VERY special to competitive Smash. She is FUN for spectators. She is insane. She is something else.
-Palutena's custom moves particularly got special treatment from Sakurai. Only Palutena's custom moves are all unlocked from the very start. They are indeed special and Sakurai wanted to particularly feature them. Why does only Palutena get to deserve special treatment for customs? because she DID get special treatment for customs. Tell people Palutena is an exception.
-In terms of balance, there are trade-offs. Lightweight does not last forever, you take more damage under lightweight, there's a 5 second half speed half jump cool down, cannot use again for 10 seconds. Currently, the infinite lightweight glitch is literally broken and I am more than happy for it to be fixed if that is what it takes for custom Palutena to live. Tell people to pretend they are fighting against Ness when Palutena is under lightweight so tell them they just need to not get grabbed for only 15 seconds.
-(help me grow this list. suggest more below)



_____
(disregard)

For those "Palutena mains" who still think default Palutena is underrated and think using custom Palutena is a sellout/overrated OH PLEASE. How much more "POTENTIAL" does Counter have to offer? it's a ****ty counter too. How much "POTENTIAL" does Reflect have to offer? SURE it ignores shield (WHY NOT JUST GRAB?), that's it. In terms of options, I think those who for some reason keep defending default Palutena have NO IDEA and completely underestimating Superspeed, Jumpglide, and Lightweight. Superspeed literally has more potential than Reflect/Angelic Missile because Superspeed utility is not situational. If there wasn't a cool down I would use it ALL THE TIME. I am, once and for all going to explain what having a move having more POTENTIAL means. Feel free to add more but as of my current knowledge, Reflect has two usages/options. Reflect is a VERY good reflector that reflects projectiles VERY well! Reflect also ignores shield and can screw up peoples recovery, does 5%. Superspeed on the other hand... Palutena gains THREE VERY RELIABLE KILL SET UPS. Superspeed > D-air; Superspeed > U-air; Superspeed > Upsmash. That's already better than reflect in my eyes. Palutena gains tremendous amounts of variety in approach options, combos, landing options, punish landings, and much much more. Seriously, if you are defending Default Palutena, you are wasting your resources/time for the Palutena community and her future. You don't know what potential means. You don't know what good is. Just because you can't be effective with her amazing customs does not mean your preference for default palutena is universally true.

Preference is preference. But fact is fact. Super speed is not situational. It has MANY utilities. It creates many OPTIONS. It gives three kill set ups. It is better than Angelic Missile and Reflect. (I actually use reflect against Mii Gunner. I get more mileage off reflect than super speed in that situation. I'm not saying Reflect is bad at all. It's one of the best reflectors. I'm saying Super speed literally has more potential.)

Counter sucks. One of the worst counters. There is no revolutionary mindblowing potential for this move from what I can tell. It is a counter. I dont know much about Fireworks but I know LIghtweight has endless utility, enhances the neutral game significantly, mid-high percent combos pretty much unheard of, guarantee kill options, useful for recovery/landing/juggling, etc. etc. etc. Need I say more? How can anyone with common sense think Counter or CF is better than one of the BEST moves in the game aka Lightweight?

Too lazy to say much about Jump glide vs Warp but overall, the reason why jump glide is better is because Jump glide gives you more options/utility than warp. Warp canceling spikes/edgeguard is sweet yeah i know. Jump Glide... gives you endless approach options when lightweight/super speed is in coold down, you can continue to do combos and use it as a third jump, mix up landing options, can recover from far away but not low.

Explosive Flame / Auto reticle are both good. Depending on match up. Personally, I use both all the time.​

//

*Update*
The primary focus of this post was to encourage discussion on ways to protect at least customs for Palutena. Let's disregard the all or nothing concerns on customs as a whole. Yes, if all customs are allowed, Palutena's customs are safe to so discussing ways to keep all of customs is indeed productive but let's place that discussion in some general discussion thread.

Palutena is a bit in a grey area. Whenever I read posts concerning Mii Fighters or the future of customs, Palutena always pops up in discussion because she indeed is in a unique circumstance hence when she is mentioned it is warranted. Some common arguments usually goes like this:
-everything should just be off including mii fighters,
-1111 guest Mii's should be allowed
-1111, 2222, 3333 guest Mii's should be allowed
-but that's stupid Mii's were designed to be customized and it's dumb to limit them with 1111, 2222, 3333
-but then if Mii's are allowed then what about Palutena?
-Customs should be allowed but some should be banned (this is what I prefer)
-All customs should be allowed.

So what about Palutena? Unfortunately, though Palutena is the only main character with all her customs unlocked, the counter argument people say for this when compared to the Mii's customizability is Mii's don't require to switch Customs On. So that sucks.

Anyways, the more I play Palutena with Lightweight the more I sincerely believe Lightweight was the original foundation that primarily influenced Palutena's ****ty neutrals. And for whatever the reasons, Sakurai ended up deciding to have our current 1111 Palutena as the official default available to be played online. As I mentioned above, her tiny 1 frame active hitbox D-air coincides with Lightweight in a balanced manner. Her huge end lag on her Dash Attack and whiffed Dash Grab balances out fairly with Lightweight. Her pivot F-tilt actually fits the Lightweight playstyle. Her slow normals are justified harmoniously with Lightweight, and Lightweight very appropriately makes Palutena goddess-like. This is just my personal opinions on what I noticed and one argument I say when people claim Palutena's customs and customs in general are jank and unintended or not serious.

I dont want to repeat what I said but I try providing counter arguments for people complaining about balance and etc.

I shouldn't have written that huge rant on why I think people who think default palutena is better than custom palutena are silly, for that greatly misdirects the focus. Please ignore that. Let's just discuss ways to provide defense for AT LEAST custom palutena in a constructive way. This is more of a last resort kinda thing if it looks like the smash community is pretty much deciding to ban customs entirely.

TL;DR Please stop being voiceless and don't let the Smash community kill Palutena's future.

 

[Pyrofishy]

It's sad to say, but Palutena was killed when she was placed low tier.
Even more when people see her B moves. "Her B moves aren't attacks?"

 

[☆Jazz☆]

Agreed.

Her customs are much more useful and accessible than her defaults. Oh Samurai, what were you thinking?

 

[JayWon]

Best setup imo:
Auto Reticle
Super Speed
Warp
Lightweight/Fireworks

One day you'll convert to Jump Glide. We all do eventually.

But that's besides the point. This is not a forum to discuss which customs set is better. This is for us to discuss how we can better present to the public a good argument/defense on why at least Palutena should rightfully be allowe to access her customs.

 

[RedCap-BlueSpikes]

For those "Palutena mains" who still think default Palutena is underrated and think using custom Palutena is a sellout/overrated OH PLEASE. How much more "POTENTIAL" does Counter have to offer? it's a ****ty counter too. How much "POTENTIAL" does Reflect have to offer? SURE it ignores shield (WHY NOT JUST GRAB?), that's it. In terms of options, I think those who for some reason keep defending default Palutena have NO IDEA and completely underestimating Superspeed, Jumpglide, and Lightweight.

*SNIP*

Seriously, if you are defending Default Palutena, you are wasting your resources/time for the Palutena community and her future. You don't know what potential means. You don't know what good is. Just because you can't be effective with her amazing customs does not mean your preference for default palutena is universally true.

Hey, some of us have good reason to defend default Palutena outside of blind fanboyism. Most people think she's unplayably bad and that she's incapable of winning against good opponents, but that's simply untrue. The few high-level Palutenas out there have proven that she's better than that; I mean, she can't be too bad if she can place Top 8 at big events. You would not believe how many times you hear commentators say some variation of "Palutena's a lot better than people think" or "After playing/seeing *insert player's name here*, I think Palutena's mid-tierish. She's underrated" while watching Ryo, Trevonte, IceNinja, etc.

Anyways, I agree with the general message behind your post. She may get buffed in the future (The U-tilt buffs are hopefully a sign of things to come), but it'd be nice to guarantee a great future through customs. I think that TOs who can afford to run both Default and Customs should do so if there's enough interest (some regions already do this and it works for them).

That, or they let Palutena and the Miis use customs regardless of whether or not customs are allowed for other characters. Customs are their gimmick and they're designed around them, taking that away not only limits them severely but also goes against some pretty obvious design choices they made with the characters. After all, they're intended to be customizable and everything from promotional material to their in-game trophies make this clear.

 

[Dinoman96]

edit: forget this

 

[Wintropy]

"I don't like customs but I'll defend them if it's for a character I like."

No. You don't get to mix and match what works and what doesn't to suit your criteria. I'm a vocal advocate for customs and I find this logic distasteful. Yes, I'm being snarky about it, but this is honestly the tone I get from your apology in defence of customs.

I agree with the core of your thesis, yet I find the egregious hyperbole totally unnecessary. RedCap summed it up nicely: default Palutena is viable in the right hands, and honestly, crying in the streets about how this is literally the only way to save Palutena just cripples whatever faith people have in her default set.

Yes, we do need to get involved if we want customs to be a thing. I am not disputing that. Your message is timely and arguably necessary. I just think the approach needs to be more measured if we're going to get our notion across.

 

[JayWon]

I'm compensating and bargaining the bare minimum for those who want to completely ban customs. I'm essentially asking the anti custom people to please let at least Palutena keep her customs because she is indeed a special case. Having all customs allowed is luxurious and great for all those who benefit.

And who else is Palutena in better hands than Aerolink himself? He works his butt off very impressively to get results with custom Palutena. Default Palutena is looking rough AF.

And yeah, totally down for everyone to discuss optimal best ways to present a better way to handle her future without sounding as whiny as me.

 

[Wintropy]

Even so, saying, "But she's the exception, Sakurai said so!" isn't a convincing argument.

Sakurai also says the game isn't competitive and that items are an integral element. The competitive scene is almost entirely built on disregarding what Sakurai says and going against the game's orthodoxy.

There is arguably a case to be made for Palutena and Mii having their customs enabled by default (which suits me fine - I play Palutena and Mii Swordfighter), though I think there are just as many compelling arguments against that notion. DLC characters without customs just muddies the waters further. There are good arguments on both sides of the argument, in addition to a few very silly ones.

We need to come to a consensus as a community on the viability of customs as a rule before we commit to advocating for a single character. I'm of the opinion that customs benefit everyone, not just Palutena exclusively, ergo we can't just play favourites because it benefits us and what we stand for.

 

[PlTe]

I think if tournaments allow Mii Fighters w/ customs, Palutena should be allowed with customs, using at least the EVO sets.

 

[TastyCarcass]

The only possible case for Allowing Miis and Palutena their custom moves is that they are unlocked by default. No others are. This means there will be no problem setting them up on each console.

I do believe this should be spoken up about. People overreact to what customs bring the game. The only possible reason to ban them IMO is Thunder Wave. Other than that, people should just learn the game more. I like how knowledge is important. It's still not exactly PM levels of required knowledge.

As for the new characters not having customs, I think that people should stop seeing customs as a means of making characters stronger, that's not why it's there. It's because a lot of depth is being completely unused, and there's no real reason to not use that content.

 

[PlTe]

As for the new characters not having customs, I think that people should stop seeing customs as a means of making characters stronger, that's not why it's there. It's because a lot of depth is being completely unused, and there's no real reason to not use that content.

I completely agree. I remember watching Sm4sh at Apex, and it was god awful boring. The only characters there were Diddys, Sheiks, and Luigis, among the rare Greninjas and Pits. And a lot of people criticize Sm4sh for being too boring to watch. With customs, the game becomes fun for both the player AND the spectator. On top of that, a lot of competitively unviable characters in Sm4sh become all of a sudden viable with customs, and banning them altogether leaves characters like Palutena out in the dust.

 

[Wintropy]

I agree, though there's no point in debating in an echo chamber.

A good place to start would be to encourage your local TOs to allow customs and get the word out. I know my local scene is hesitant to adopt them because they need new players and are afraid of alienating people, though I'm helping to advocate them for what they can do to get new people interested. It's a small step, but if we can dispel the common myths around customs and get people involved in using them, we can help create a new paradigm of custom legality.

 

[JayWon]

The primary focus of this post was to encourage discussion on ways to protect at least customs for Palutena. Let's disregard the all or nothing concerns on customs as a whole. Yes, if all customs are allowed, Palutena's customs are safe to so discussing ways to keep all of customs is indeed productive but let's place that discussion in some general discussion thread.

Palutena is a bit in a grey area. Whenever I read posts concerning Mii Fighters or the future of customs, Palutena always pops up in discussion because she indeed is in a unique circumstance hence when she is mentioned it is warranted. Some common arguments usually goes like this:
-everything should just be off including mii fighters,
-1111 guest Mii's should be allowed
-1111, 2222, 3333 guest Mii's should be allowed
-but that's stupid Mii's were designed to be customized and it's dumb to limit them with 1111, 2222, 3333
-but then if Mii's are allowed then what about Palutena?
-Customs should be allowed but some should be banned (this is what I prefer)
-All customs should be allowed.

So what about Palutena? Unfortunately, though Palutena is the only main character with all her customs unlocked, the counter argument people say for this when compared to the Mii's customizability is Mii's don't require to switch Customs On. So that sucks.

Anyways, the more I play Palutena with Lightweight the more I sincerely believe Lightweight was the original foundation that primarily influenced Palutena's ****ty neutrals. And for whatever the reasons, Sakurai ended up deciding to have our current 1111 Palutena as the official default available to be played online. As I mentioned above, her tiny 1 frame active hitbox D-air coincides with Lightweight in a balanced manner. Her huge end lag on her Dash Attack and whiffed Dash Grab balances out fairly with Lightweight. Her pivot F-tilt actually fits the Lightweight playstyle. Her slow normals are justified harmoniously with Lightweight, and Lightweight very appropriately makes Palutena goddess-like. This is just my personal opinions on what I noticed and one argument I say when people claim Palutena's customs and customs in general are jank and unintended or not serious.

I dont want to repeat what I said but I try providing counter arguments for people complaining about balance and etc.

I shouldn't have written that huge rant on why I think people who think default palutena is better than custom palutena are silly, for that greatly misdirects the focus. Please ignore that. Let's just discuss ways to provide defense for AT LEAST custom palutena in a constructive way. This is more of a last resort kinda thing if it looks like the smash community is pretty much deciding to ban customs entirely.

 

[TastyCarcass]

I agree, though there's no point in debating in an echo chamber.

A good place to start would be to encourage your local TOs to allow customs and get the word out. I know my local scene is hesitant to adopt them because they need new players and are afraid of alienating people, though I'm helping to advocate them for what they can do to get new people interested. It's a small step, but if we can dispel the common myths around customs and get people involved in using them, we can help create a new paradigm of custom legality.

Yeah, I'm fairly certain my local scene is keeping them.
I don't think there's been any cases for actually removing them. People complain that they don't like certain characters with them, but I've yet to see a custom Pikachu or Villager win a tournament. Anyone who thinks wind Dong is uncounterable is speaking in hyperbole

 

[Azero Tehiro]

I'm fairly knew to Smash 4 in general, much less this discussion about customs, but if I could relay my opinion a bit, I believe that for the sake of Sakurai's intentions for the character, we should allow Palutena to use customs, BUT we must agree as a whole on only inserting in one custom set for her to be tournament legal.

Since the default Palutena is designed as a defensive character, we should prompt to elect an offensive Palutena to be included into the tournament roster; something like 2322. We can then just say that it's something like Dr. Mario, Lucina, Lucas etc. If we're going with the Uprising theme, we can just call her Chaos Kin Palutena

Is that a satisfactory solution to this quandary? I'm expecting either a pat on the back or a slap on the face for this.

 

[Wintropy]

I'm fairly knew to Smash 4 in general, much less this discussion about customs, but if I could relay my opinion a bit, I believe that for the sake of Sakurai's intentions for the character, we should allow Palutena to use customs, BUT we must agree as a whole on only inserting in one custom set for her to be tournament legal.

Since the default Palutena is designed as a defensive character, we should prompt to elect an offensive Palutena to be included into the tournament roster; something like 2322. We can then just say that it's something like Dr. Mario, Lucina, Lucas etc. If we're going with the Uprising theme, we can just call her Chaos Kin Palutena

Is that a satisfactory solution to this quandary? I'm expecting either a pat on the back or a slap on the face for this.

*Hand hovers inches from you, unsure of how to react*

Isn't there a "standard set" for customs, as there is for every character? That may be a good citation.

 

[TastyCarcass]

I'm fairly knew to Smash 4 in general, much less this discussion about customs, but if I could relay my opinion a bit, I believe that for the sake of Sakurai's intentions for the character, we should allow Palutena to use customs, BUT we must agree as a whole on only inserting in one custom set for her to be tournament legal.

Since the default Palutena is designed as a defensive character, we should prompt to elect an offensive Palutena to be included into the tournament roster; something like 2322. We can then just say that it's something like Dr. Mario, Lucina, Lucas etc. If we're going with the Uprising theme, we can just call her Chaos Kin Palutena

Is that a satisfactory solution to this quandary? I'm expecting either a pat on the back or a slap on the face for this.

Bad idea. First off, why can't other characters use their customs?
Also Palutena players would disagree. I personally thing 1312 is her best set.

*Hand hovers inches from you, unsure of how to react*

Isn't there a "standard set" for customs, as there is for every character? That may be a good citation.

Yes, that's the customs rules, you have to use premade sets.

 

[Greda]

She may get buffed in the future (The U-tilt buffs are hopefully a sign of things to come), but it'd be nice to guarantee a great future through customs.

Out of this whole thread this single line caught my eye, because I hope it might be true. From my knowledge (please correct me if I'm wrong), Palutena has been consecutively buffed from every patch that featured changes to her, taking this I do believe Sakurai does feel Palutena is in need of buffs, but just hesitant to do so because of his own version of balancing. After a bit of research on the topic, I found something that might be very important from Sakurai himself,

"There are two characters I can’t seem to get the hang of: Pit and Palutena. I personally feel those two are below average in terms of strength. If I further adjusted the game’s balance for myself, I would make them stronger, but that’s not what I’ve done.

And, given that I am still making adjustments little by little.

Generally speaking, the most important resource for balancing is the report we receive from the playtesting team. While the playtesters don’t ever appear in the spotlight, I’m confident they’re skilled enough to perform quite well in a tournament.

In addition to the playtesters’ daily impressions, the team also considers results from online battles, as well as opinions they find about characters on the Internet. Then, using all of this data, they propose balance adjustments."

So, it looks like I was correct a tad bit. It seems what's going on is Sakurai wants to buff Palutena, but the playtesters are either indifferent about it or only want her to be buffed in a minor sense, so small changes are only being made. And keep in mind, Sakurai said they could potentially do well in tournaments, so they could bias towards our side a little?

But, there is also another way he decides to balance characters, and that is through online matches, so if my theory above were to be true, Palutena could be buffed through major loss. But, that's odd, if so many people claim that Palutena's default set is bad, how come not much people are losing enough to make the balancing team notice? I mean, if it's so bad Palutena must be losing a lot online, right? Well, that doesn't seem to be the case. So from here I can imply Palutena is actually doing well with her default, and it could have a better future than people imagine. Then again, this is online and not a competitive scene.

And how much time do we have left? I mean, Sakurai said something important when talking about DLC characters,

"From now until the end, it is going to be fan service, but I can’t keep the development team together forever, so there’s only going to be several more characters."

So, what do we do from here? Go online and die on purpose with Palutena? Get a bit more vocal and talk about balancing issues? Or do we drop the whole topic of Sakurai with balancing, and only focus on custom move exclusivity with Palutena? Unfortunately, I don't think we can do anything. Sakurai has already said that he doesn't believe this game is made to be played competitively, so he's not going to listen to us. And, let's be honest, the big tournaments are for "Advanced" players, and Sakurai already has said,

"At the end of the day, I’m aiming for intermediately-skilled players to be able to properly enjoy the game."

We aren't aiming for that area, so we are probably considered the "vocal minority" Sakurai said he won't listen to for balance. As strange as it sounds, I believe at this point Palutena will only have small, steady buffs, unless if something big were to happen, as Sakurai contradicts himself... a lot.

To be honest, I'm actually thinking customs enabled to be a nice fallback if nothing happens, and I support the idea of Palutena having this exclusivity, but I also do think her default moveset has a nice future if it doesn't happen. Anyways, anything is possible at this point, I'm curious to see what will happen from here on out.

 

[JayWon]

I wouldn't be surprised if Palutena has one of the highest win rates in For Glory because I'm sure her sample size is tiny and I'm sure within the tiny sample size of the very few Palutena players, it's probably saturated with competent skillful players who have very solid understanding of the game.

I have an Instagram account and post Palutena clips and have a lot of younger (10-18) fans that watch my clips and think Palutena is so cool and want to main her literally cuz she is "bae". But they don't. They can't. And they all just end up maining falcon, yoshi, marth/lucina, ness, link, Mario. Palutena weaves off bad players in an instant!

Bad players play good characters and lower win rates. But it balances out cuz good players play good characters and increase win rates.

Bad players straight up can't stand Palutena. Palutena is pretty much only played by people who are capable, and willing to dedicate. And it is only these good capable people that is solely responsible for the good win rates in For Glory which ironically ends up biting us in the butt cuz Palutena gets rekt at anything else more serious than For Glory.

Stop winning with Palutena on For Glory . Plz. Let us all purposely lower her win rate from now on!

 

[Greda]

I wouldn't be surprised if Palutena has one of the highest win rates in For Glory because I'm sure her sample size is tiny and I'm sure within the tiny sample size of the very few Palutena players, it's probably saturated with competent skillful players who have very solid understanding of the game.

I have an Instagram account and post Palutena clips and have a lot of younger (10-18) fans that watch my clips and think Palutena is so cool and want to main her literally cuz she is "bae". But they don't. They can't. And they all just end up maining falcon, yoshi, marth/lucina, ness, link, Mario. Palutena weaves off bad players in an instant!

Bad players play good characters and lower win rates. But it balances out cuz good players play good characters and increase win rates.

Bad players straight up can't stand Palutena. Palutena is pretty much only played by people who are capable, and willing to dedicate. And it is only these good capable people that is solely responsible for the good win rates in For Glory which ironically ends up biting us in the butt cuz Palutena gets rekt at anything else more serious than For Glory.

Stop winning with Palutena on For Glory . Plz. Let us all purposely lower her win rate from now on!

#loseaspalutena2k15

You are right to some degree, I've met only 5 Palutena's on my time of FG. Though me, sharing data to Nintendo is off, when I play as Palu in FG I score an 88% win rate including SD's which is decent I suppose but I try my best to make her default viable against every character (and it has the potential, Warp, Reflect, and Counter albeit Counter being the most useless, give Palutena the tools to win over anyone on the roster). I can say I'm doing well and I love playing as her so far at default.

 

[TastyCarcass]

That logic is probably why Sakurai claimed Little Mac's win rate was so tiny even before his nerfs.

 

[Wintropy]

That's a rather dishonest tactic, not to mention pretty desperate. And anyway, manipulating data like that isn't so easy. You'd have to convince a huge majority of Palutena players to commit ritual suicide in FG for that to make a dent. Even then, I doubt Sakurai is naive enough to just ogle the data and say, "Oh, sudden deficit in Palutena victories online? Guess I'd better buff her!"

Also, maximum ***** mode engaged:

Rather than getting in a huff about customs and decrying Palutena's future without them, why can't we just work to make use of what we do have? I'm not saying abandon our efforts to legalise customs or anything, just that we should be considering alternatives and working to advance the metagame anyway, regardless of what happens after EVO.

 

[JayWon]

That's a rather dishonest tactic, not to mention pretty desperate. And anyway, manipulating data like that isn't so easy. You'd have to convince a huge majority of Palutena players to commit ritual suicide in FG for that to make a dent. Even then, I doubt Sakurai is naive enough to just ogle the data and say, "Oh, sudden deficit in Palutena victories online? Guess I'd better buff her!"

Also, maximum ***** mode engaged:

Rather than getting in a huff about customs and decrying Palutena's future without them, why can't we just work to make use of what we do have? I'm not saying abandon our efforts to legalise customs or anything, just that we should be considering alternatives and working to advance the metagame anyway, regardless of what happens after EVO.

lolololol dude .... I think it was clear purposely losing was a light joke for a light chuckle.

You say a lot of things aggressively and treat people like they are dumb idiots while really saying the obvious or pretty much nothing relevant or insightful at all.

Seriously bruh. To all the replies you have posted so far I respond: OBVIOUSLY but that's not the point.

You constantly keep missing the main topic of concern: How can we keep Palutena's customs alive?

 

[Wintropy]

lolololol dude .... I think it was clear purposely losing was a light joke for a light chuckle.

You say a lot of things aggressively and treat people like they are dumb idiots while really saying the obvious or pretty much nothing relevant or insightful at all.

I'm going to offer you the benefit of the doubt and presume you're under a lot of stress right now.

Seriously bruh. To all the replies you have posted so far I respond: OBVIOUSLY but that's not the point.

You constantly keep missing the main topic of concern: How can we keep Palutena's customs alive?

I'm not even sure how to respond to that.

EDIT: Oh wait, yes I am~

You don't get to mix and match what works and what doesn't to suit your criteria. I'm a vocal advocate for customs and I find this logic distasteful.

...

RedCap summed it up nicely: default Palutena is viable in the right hands, and honestly, crying in the streets about how this is literally the only way to save Palutena just cripples whatever faith people have in her default set.

Yes, we do need to get involved if we want customs to be a thing. I am not disputing that. Your message is timely and arguably necessary. I just think the approach needs to be more measured if we're going to get our notion across.

There is arguably a case to be made for Palutena and Mii having their customs enabled by default (which suits me fine - I play Palutena and Mii Swordfighter), though I think there are just as many compelling arguments against that notion. DLC characters without customs just muddies the waters further. There are good arguments on both sides of the argument, in addition to a few very silly ones.

We need to come to a consensus as a community on the viability of customs as a rule before we commit to advocating for a single character. I'm of the opinion that customs benefit everyone, not just Palutena exclusively, ergo we can't just play favourites because it benefits us and what we stand for.

A good place to start would be to encourage your local TOs to allow customs and get the word out. I know my local scene is hesitant to adopt them because they need new players and are afraid of alienating people, though I'm helping to advocate them for what they can do to get new people interested. It's a small step, but if we can dispel the common myths around customs and get people involved in using them, we can help create a new paradigm of custom legality.

Isn't there a "standard set" for customs, as there is for every character? That may be a good citation.

Rather than getting in a huff about customs and decrying Palutena's future without them, why can't we just work to make use of what we do have? I'm not saying abandon our efforts to legalise customs or anything, just that we should be considering alternatives and working to advance the metagame anyway, regardless of what happens after EVO.

 

[Greda]

That's a rather dishonest tactic, not to mention pretty desperate. And anyway, manipulating data like that isn't so easy. You'd have to convince a huge majority of Palutena players to commit ritual suicide in FG for that to make a dent. Even then, I doubt Sakurai is naive enough to just ogle the data and say, "Oh, sudden deficit in Palutena victories online? Guess I'd better buff her!

That logic is probably why Sakurai claimed Little Mac's win rate was so tiny even before his nerfs.

Guys, oh my god it was a joke please don't actually attempt this.

-----------------

After reading up on more recent posts, I think further analyzing her default set and its potential (rather than COUNTER IS USELESS LOL) and analyzing the future of Palutena and her as a character with upcoming patches included should be discussed first before delving into customs, if we are talking about Palutena's overall viability and MU's.

If we are talking keeping customs in tournaments, however, perhaps some more immediate action should be taken.

 

[NovemberMan]

Guys, oh my god it was a joke please don't actually attempt this.

Of course not. For me, that would be sacrilege to the character. I'm fine with how she is.

 

[Teshie U]

Reflect have to offer? SURE it ignores shield (WHY NOT JUST GRAB?

Reflect is unblockable?

 

[AeroLink_the_SoulMaster]

Reflect is unblockable?

Mhm.

 

[Teshie U]

Are you talking about the windbox or are you saying if I put that thing on a shield I get 5 damage and some hitstun? Because that actually sounds kind of cool.

Not trying to derail thread, I just saw no mention of this in the guide.

 

[JayWon]

Are you talking about the windbox or are you saying if I put that thing on a shield I get 5 damage and some hitstun? Because that actually sounds kind of cool.

Not trying to derail thread, I just saw no mention of this in the guide.

You have to be right next to your opponent but even if they are holding shield it ignores it and does 5%. But the hitbox has low priority and I believe Palutena's amazing grab range reaches further than the reflect's hitbox. Unless someone can enlighten me otherwise, I get more mileage off of grab than reflect beating shield unless it's against Little Mac or something.




Anyways, guys! Please no more Default Palutena vs custom Palutena argument. If you are fine with default Palutena and haven't quite invested enough in custom Palutena to the point it's hard not to be completely devastated by the idea of custom Palutena never to see the light again, this isn't the appropriate thread to discuss how much potential Palutena default has and tell people to just git gud with default. T_T



---
Everyone is so bias on the Palutena boards. I am damn sure I am too. But just a little background of me and my "credibility" as a Palutena main (you may see me as having none, or some it really is up to you to judge), I believe I can say I have a fairly decent understanding of the potential of default Palutena (I mean this is where it all started and I have thousands of wins online); & I have relatively decent experience with these certain customs: Lightweight, Superspeed, Explosive Flame, Jump Glide (also of course Auto Reticle, Reflect, Warp, Counter). I have absolutely no credibility in saying how bad/good Celestial Fireworks, Angelic Missile, Heavenly Light, or Rocket Jump is.

Anyways, I just want to share with you guys how my biases changed over time since the first day of 3DS launch. I straight up didn't like custom Palutena initially. It was pretty much just ridiculous nonsense and because I personally couldn't control Lightweight or personally make use of Superspeed/Jump Glide successfully, I very quickly concluded they were stupid and sucked. I was quite comfortable with default Palutena. But over the year, one custom move at a time, my views changed. I was pretty much WARP MASTER RACE for a very long time but now I will switch to Jump Glide in a heartbeat. I am biass but I am confident custom Palutena is objectively better and for me it totally means a lot to be this passionate and silly about her custom moves. And it totally is worth it for me to fight for at least the usage of her customs officially in all the future competitive meta.

Anyways, I contributed some Palutena stuff like:
Neutral Stop, Foxtrots, Perfect Pivot, Swagwalk, Lightweight, Super Speed B-Reversal, etc.
and I go to local tourney's recently placing 5th out of 55 no customs. I have a fairly popular instagram page with lots of awesome Palutena clips and got MANY people interested in maining her. It would be an honor for other fellow Palutena mains to check it out (AT LEAST these) and leave comments and say hi!

I am not amazing nor nearly as credible as Aerolink. Take what you will.

 

[Benmjy]

I know this is a total pipe dream but wouldn't it be just amazing if Sakurai just decided to change some of her defaults to the better customs and in turn make the move he replaced it with a custom. Like, for example, making Lightweight her default and Counter a custom instead. I'm more just thinking out loud here I guess. It get's tiring seeing people say she's **** without customs. Maybe not as good but definitely not trash.

 

[Greda]

I know this is a total pipe dream but wouldn't it be just amazing if Sakurai just decided to change some of her defaults to the better customs and in turn make the move he replaced it with a custom. Like, for example, making Lightweight her default and Counter a custom instead. I'm more just thinking out loud here I guess. It get's tiring seeing people say she's **** without customs. Maybe not as good but definitely not trash.

It's too late to change her moveset, people are too accustomed to her default that I believe if it changed it would cause the community Sakurai is aiming for to be angered.

Counter to Lightweight is the only possible one imo, I think Sakurai is smart enough to realize Counter doesn't contribute to the battle as much as Lightweight. Though, then Counter would be a bad and underused custom.

That being said, it's still unlikely since Sakurai created customs with the intentions of it being fun, they're even banned online, so what are the chances?

 

[Benmjy]

It's too late to change her moveset, people are too accustomed to her default that I believe if it changed it would cause the community Sakurai is aiming for to be angered.

Counter to Lightweight is the only possible one imo, I think Sakurai is smart enough to realize Counter doesn't contribute to the battle as much as Lightweight. Though, then Counter would be a bad and underused custom.

That being said, it's still unlikely since Sakurai created customs with the intentions of it being fun, they're even banned online, so what are the chances?

Like I said, a pipe dream, not very likely to happen but a man can dream. Also, what kind of buffs/changes do you guys think Palutena needs to make her default customs more viable?

 

[JayWon]

what kind of buffs/changes do you guys think Palutena needs to make her default customs more viable?

T_____T Can we talk about saving Palutena's custom future instead?

 

[Dinoman96]

Palutena won't receive any major changes. The sad thing is, her default kit being weak/underwhelming is kind of the point of the character. She's supposed to be a blank slate that you customize into a more interesting and versatile fighter.

As I mentioned here (http://smashboards.com/threads/i-re...gned-balanced-around-a-normal-moveset.408844/) Sakurai really should of never designed her around custom moves.

 

[Teshie U]

Hasn't Palutena actually received minor buffs from a few patches? Her tilts have gotten better and she still boasts a somewhat unique toolkit.

Sakurai did mention once the decision to sacrifice balance for characters to feel unique and she does still feel unique without customs.

I don't think she is top tier with or without customs, but she definitely has some tricks up her sleeve.

 

[sleepy_Nex]

T_____T Can we talk about saving Palutena's custom future instead?

The future of customs would be saved if customs would be playable online.(on FG i mean)
I think this isn't just a dream since there will be a online-tournament mode soon. It wouldn't be surprising if you could switch customs on in your own tournament. This will probaly affect the online-community.

@ Teshie U her utilt got buffed but no other tilts.
The utilt is amazing now tough...if it wouldn't be for the lag.

 

[Teshie U]

Didn't Dtilt also get buffed? I mean hell they aren't stellar moves, but they arent garbage.

 

[RedCap-BlueSpikes]

D-tilt got buffed in 1.0.4, less endlag. I wish they'd fix the startup on D-tilt. It'd be really good if they halved the startup so it comes out on frame 7 instead of frame 14 (and removed 7 frames from the total animation). As is, it's only okay.