Paranoia: Will people really begin to use the bananas?

[fource]

Since the tier list came out and even earlier, everyone has been saying that Diddy will go down when people begin to utilize his banana game. After giving it some though I've decided that this just is NOT true.

The reason people cannot get a hold of the bananas is because Diddy almost always maintains control over them. If Diddy throws one banana and misses, chances are Diddy will immediately charge after the opponent, either with another banana, a grab, or cartwheel. I've been playing Snakes that use my bananas brilliantly and can use them to rack up damage but that does not give them a HUGE advantage. Same with Meta Knight, we all know he has a retardedly long GT which he can do into DSmash, NAir, grab, and so on. This however can all be stopped with a SH Fair which should not only grab the banana with proper timing but hit Meta Knight.

If our opponents ability to use the bananas was really that big of an issue I think they would have realized this by now. On the other hand...if you do happen to run into someone who does not main Diddy but can use bananas, you might want to bring up doubles. =] Banana into Snake's UTilt is SOOO WIN!


Anyway, I hope this thread brings up CIVILIZED discussion on whether we truly believe our opponents will or will not control the banana game.

 

[zyzzx]

It's not going to ever give anyone a "huge advantage" over us, but it can even the playing field more.

If you immediately charge after an opponent after a missed banana, you're probably going to get punished. The people I play with a lot will punish my dash attack if its not used with a banana or in some sort of "combo". And one of them, <3, uses bananas pretty well against me if he can get ahold of them. I just have keep tighter control and trick him more into getting hit/tripped.

I don't think it's going to cause a huge change in his game, but could be enough to drop a couple spots... buuuut I've never played against a good diddy kong, so I don't have too much experience, I want to tho, want to see what I can do with bananas with my other characters

oh and ridiculously long glidetosses are pretty useless in my opinion :o

 

[Le_THieN]

Ask BoRn about my Kirby versus his Diddy. LOL.

 

[Steeler]

well...how much of what diddy can do with bananas is really exclusive to diddy? it's all about people putting in the work to use them as well as diddy can.

 

[Le_THieN]

well...how much of what diddy can do with bananas is really exclusive to diddy? it's all about people putting in the work to use them as well as diddy can.

When you mix in character-specific tactics like dribbling and then throw in popgun-canceling mind games, Diddy Kong is completely stacked out when it comes to small, various techniques that he can deploy in his mix-up game.

The key thing to realize is that it often only takes a fundamental understanding of item micromanagement and how to turn it against players who depend on these games in order to clinch the victory.

The main problem with people trying to advance the anti-Diddy meta-game is that they usually don't even get this far in the thought process.

If you think about it, all it takes are a handful of competent Diddy mains to switch over to other characters for anti-Diddy tactics to be advanced at an exponential rate. All that's currently missing right now is motivation to do so.

 

[white peachy]

Yeah, the more I think about it, eventually people will be catching bananas off of sheilds, using an aerial or air-dodge to grab them off the ground, instant throw, and learning to z-catch also. All that said I don't think it will be devastating to Diddy, but it certainly won't help him advance. The best way to describe this is the next time someone uses diddy against you, choose another character. You'll be amazed how well you'll be able to control bananas in comparison to people who don't main diddy.

 

[ADHD]

No you don't realize how hard it is to fight diddy when you're on the other side of the match. He's too solid of a character to fall because of something silly like this.

 

[AvaricePanda]

I doubt that he as a character will fall drastically or anything, MAYBE one or two spots, but that's not what I'm concerned about.

Look at other character threads when they talk about the matchup. What do you usually find? "His bananas are annoying." "Seperate him from his bananas." "You have this awesome followup from a trip so use it."

It's really not convincing. They don't talk about specific banana situations, what most Diddy's do after a banana hits the opponents sheild, how to bait Diddy to get back his banana and punish, what to do if there's a banana on the platform above them, what to do if their throw hits Diddy's sheild, if their glide toss length is good enough to dribble, if it's best for their character to throw it back, throw it away, or camp with it, how to z-catch and instant banana glide toss while falling on the opponent's banana, etc, etc.

There's a LOT of things about banana control. But you usually don't see that in matchup discussions. You usually just see generic statements that those characters should get bananas and use them. You usually see, "Don't let Diddy control the stage with 2 bananas or you're screwed," without any mention of how he controls the stage, what he can do in a relatively safe position, and how you can get yourself out of the pressure.

I've played a couple of people who obviously know how to nullify bananas well, and they were all probably either Diddy mains or played a lot of Diddys. Granted, I don't believe that when opponents learn the anti-banana game that we're going to cripple as a character; we can still easily work on controlling bananas, because I notice that like 80% of the time when the opponent gets a Diddy's banana, the Diddy made a mistake.

I've played Coyn3Masta's Diddy online (with my Wario, because Diddy dittos suck) and he wasn't able to use bananas effectively like I think he probably would have against any other player. I probably only barely won because of z-catching, instant GTs, and other things (plus Wario is good at avoiding them anyway). I played Count's Diddy in-person with my Wario, and while he still decently beat me, I didn't feel as overwhelmed by bananas all the time (there were still times I got banana locked and sadfaced).

That's also how I felt when I played Count's Sonic; Count said that he thought his Sonic sucked, but I wasn't able to use my bananas with great effectiveness either; it's a weird experience when you're playing against someone with such banana knowledge and you can't do all of the stuff that would be able to against any other Sonic or any other character. It seems that some of things that current Diddy's do are unsafe, but they a lot of the times get away with it because of the opponent not knowing what they can do to exploit the situation.

I kind of agree with ADHD though; Diddy's too solid of a character to fall much from anti-banana game, especially when Diddy can also work on his control. However, the whole thing isn't going to help Diddy when character boards as a whole start to familiarize themselves with bananas.

 

[bludhoundz]

No nana Diddy is underrated.

I'm not saying don't use the bananas.

But his fair is amazing. His bair is great, uair is pretty good. Side b is awesome, tilts are all pretty solid, and his dash attack is incredible. He has an above average grab game too.

So yeah, even after opponents start to utilize bananas, Diddy still has his own thing going for him, not to mention he has the best utility with the bananas due to the obvious things like GT length, popgun cancelled GTs, etc..

 

[Melomaniacal]

If anything, people will learn how to use Diddy's bananas, so Diddy will become smarter about using them. It may change the way we use the bananas (slightly, if at all), but I don't think it will affect how well Diddy performs.

 

[Ingulit]

That's also how I felt when I played Count's Sonic; Count said that he thought his Sonic sucked, but I wasn't able to use my bananas with great effectiveness either; it's a weird experience when you're playing against someone with such banana knowledge and you can't do all of the stuff that would be able to against any other Sonic or any other character. It seems that some of things that current Diddy's do are unsafe, but they a lot of the times get away with it because of the opponent not knowing what they can do to exploit the situation.

I 100% agree. If I'm EVER playing another character for some reason (usually Wolf) and they are Diddy, I rarely fall for a typical Diddy's (or even my) usual tricks; I can usually neutralize the Banana or to avoid it altogether. The unsafe thing is a completely true assessment :x

 

[TreK]

i'm the opposite, actually. Since my playstyle's pretty uncommon, i fall for other diddys's basic tricks...

 

[Bellioes]

You know, I gotta agree with Melo. Diddys a deep enough character where we'll always be able to figure out ways to counter other anti-Diddy tactics. I mean its not like D3 where there really is only one way to be effective him. With Diddy, you have several options at any given time, especially with a banana in hand, so youll always have the option of adapting to the opponent.
The only thing that will make Diddy drop IMO is if some universal technique that makes items pretty useful is discovered and I 'highly' doubt thatll happen.

 

[Advent Lee]

It seems that some of things that current Diddy's do are unsafe, but they a lot of the times get away with it because of the opponent not knowing what they can do to exploit the situation.

^^THIS^^ Much more true than a lot of your are even "ready" to admit...

I really thought about this in depth especially when thinking about actual character match ups and the things we get away with them that will cease to end as soon as the wall of ignorance is torn down from other players characters. It makes you wonder what characters "truly" do well against Diddy as soon as they get around the gimmicks. I agree with a long time post of GDX & Hanson saying something along the lines of "Diddy's tricks/gimmicks will be figured out soon, and when they are thats when we will really know who is actually good with Diddy, and who relies on the gimmicks."



-Lee-

 

[Coyn3Masta]

i completely agree with avarice, only time will tell though

 

[~^.NoiR.^~]

Since the tier list came out and even earlier, everyone has been saying that Diddy will go down when people begin to utilize his banana game.

They are right. Think about it more or go pick up a character and utilize the bananas to a high potential and you'll see why.

 

[GooseMainsDiddy]

Diddy is best with his bananas. That alone is keeping them from using them as well. He has the best glide-toss in the game for doing what it is supposed to and a long GT doesn't benefit other characters with the banana. His cartwheel is optimal for retrieving nanners and throwing them directly after which sets up the majority of his combos. He can GT=>Smash which can only happen with his short GT.

 

[AlAxe]

Other people will get better with bananas, some characters more than others, but diddy will always be the banana king. Diddy mains will always be one step ahead of everyone else when it comes to utilizing bananas. Plus if we are smart and careful we can keep our opponents from using the bananas at all.

 

[Ingulit]

I still firmly believe there is at least one other character that is better with Bananas than we are. I don't know who, but I know someone has the tools that would make them broken if they could only pull the Bananas themselves. The fact we are the ones able to pull Bananas keeps us ahead of the game, but I think it's only a matter of time before the other characters start experimenting and finding out the potential they have in the Diddy matchup.

 

[GooseMainsDiddy]

Not happening Ingulit. It may be a coincidence that Diddy can use his bananas better than anyone else can but it will always be true. No character has the mobility that is needed to use the bananas.

 

[Melomaniacal]

Snake can use bananas very well, actually. His dash attack (and DACUS, IIRC) are fantastic for picking them up, and he can follow up a trip well.

I'm not saying he's better than Diddy with bananas, but he's definitely very, very good with bananas.

Like I said before, the worst that will happen is that we will have to be more careful about how and when we use our bananas. We will always be in control of when bananas are out and where they will be placed. It always begins in our control.

 

[GooseMainsDiddy]

Snake is very dificult but bananas shouldn't be why. It is his gay tilts and nade spamming that gets in our way. Nades are like the nanner of Snake, only he can use them properly because he can sit back and cook.

 

[Melomaniacal]

Snake is very dificult but bananas shouldn't be why. It is his gay tilts and nade spamming that gets in our way. Nades are like the nanner of Snake, only he can use them properly because he can sit back and cook.

Yeah, I'm just giving an example of a character who can use bananas very well. I've heard people argue that he uses bananas better than Diddy.

 

[Veggi]

Donkey Kong is also very good with bananas. I'm not just saying that because he is from the same franchise as Diddy. Well even if I was wrong, I would probably say it anyway, but you get the point.

DK has can glide toss into smash attacks, side b, and giant punch. His glidetoss is also very long, although I don't think that hinders him at all because I've been able to get an attack off every time I hit with one. It seems like DK throws farther than other characters, which I think is the reason. Not sure though.

I know it wrecks teams, at least.

 

[Coyn3Masta]

i always thought shiek and ZSS were pretty good with nannerz =S

 

[fource]

i always thought shiek and ZSS were pretty good with nannerz =S

I'm gonna make a small comment 'cause I'm mad tired. Sheik is really good, I don't think so too much for ZSS. She actually throws her armor pieces off stage because Diddy uses them better...Lolz.

SNAKE USES BANANAS LIKE A **** MONSTER! He's so good with them...so retardedly good...

 

[GooseMainsDiddy]

^overreacting.

 

[AvaricePanda]

Sheik is really stupid with bananas, and she's really the only matchup where I actually have trouble with her controlling the bananas, and even then I've only played one Sheik online that was able to effectively do that. I've played him twice; the first time was a couple months ago and I got completely wrecked, which made me try to be better with my banana control. The second time he still won, although it was really close, and I could use my bananas a lot better but not as well as I wanted to.

Really, Diddy's can easily work on spacing banana throws so they don't whiff them, and not pulling out bananas and immediately getting pressured away. Situations like that are where people lose their bananas and shouldn't have to, because it's completely in their control.

 

[Ingulit]

Sheik is really stupid with bananas, and she's really the only matchup where I actually have trouble with her controlling the bananas, and even then I've only played one Sheik online that was able to effectively do that. I've played him twice; the first time was a couple months ago and I got completely wrecked, which made me try to be better with my banana control. The second time he still won, although it was really close, and I could use my bananas a lot better but not as well as I wanted to.

Really, Diddy's can easily work on spacing banana throws so they don't whiff them, and not pulling out bananas and immediately getting pressured away. Situations like that are where people lose their bananas and shouldn't have to, because it's completely in their control.

&& Sheik has a single banana lock

But yes, a good Diddy SHOULDN'T lose control of their Bananas... but if they do, I do think some other character could use them better than we could. It's just nobody has looked into this matchup that closely yet.

 

[Jupz]

Zelda also has pretty good banana control. Although Diddy will always have the best. Its an amazing coincedence that he has one of the best glidetosses for bananas lol.

 

[Advent Lee]

Its an amazing coincedence that he has one of the best glidetosses for bananas lol.

I always wonder about things like that, is it really coincidence or was it done on purpose....



-L-

 

[LuVr]

I am not too good with the newer ways of using bananas, I'm not nearly as quick as the pros, I just use the bananas to stop people but I throw them with a lot less skill... Coming from someone who is moderate at best but can still sometimes beat good players, wouldn't that be an indication that banana's could become a problem?

 

[Player-1]

I always wonder about things like that, is it really coincidence or was it done on purpose....



-L-

I'm pretty sure glidetoss length is determined by how long it takes for a character to throw a banana and also maybe how fast the roll is. Diddy's banana throw comes out on frame 3 I think it was while MK's throw comes out slower (don't know what frame) and yet one characters glidetoss is longer than the other. I also think that how fast the roll is helps to, Diddy has the 2nd fastest roll in the game next to Lucario's.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Quivo is the best person at using my bananas and he also has TL's bombs to work with. Yet, he still falls short of anything I can do with them. Even with his superb use of them changes are he only gets about 50-% damage off of them a game. (zair > nana > rising nair recatch > zair > nana > repeat - something that he pulled on me like 3 weeks ago like that that I've since figured out how to get out of [and recontrol nanas] so his damage off of a nana hit will likely drop to like 30-50% a game).

 

[Le_THieN]

I'm pretty sure glidetoss length is determined by how long it takes for a character to throw a banana and also maybe how fast the roll is. Diddy's banana throw comes out on frame 3 I think it was while MK's throw comes out slower (don't know what frame) and yet one characters glidetoss is longer than the other. I also think that how fast the roll is helps to, Diddy has the 2nd fastest roll in the game next to Lucario's.

I haven't checked rolling frame data in quite some time, but I was certain Falco had the second longest and fastest roll behind Lucario's roll.

 

[Player-1]

I haven't checked rolling frame data in quite some time, but I was certain Falco had the second longest and fastest roll behind Lucario's roll.

Well I checked a few weeks ago and it had lucario has fastest, then Diddy and Squirtle tied for 2nd.

Edit:

Back Roll

4-19 / 27 Lucario
4-19 / 29 Diddy
4-19 / 29 Squirtle

4-20 / 31 Kirby
4-19 / 31 Donkey Kong
4-19 / 31 Fox
4-19 / 31 Pikachu
4-19 / 31 Luigi
4-19 / 31 Zelda
4-19 / 31 Sheik
4-19 / 31 Falco
4-19 / 31 Lucas
4-19 / 31 Wolf
4-19 / 31 Ness
4-19 / 31 Sonic
4-19 / 31 Ganondorf
4-19 / 31 Ice Climbers
4-19 / 31 Captain Falcon
5-20 / 31 Peach

4-19 / 32 Jigglypuff
4-19 / 32 Mario
4-19 / 32 King Dedede
4-19 / 32 Ivysaur
4-19 / 32 Olimar
4-17 / 32 Pit

4-19 / 33 Snake
4-12 / 33 Metaknight
4-21 / 34 R.O.B
4-23 / 35 Marth
4-19 / 35 G&W
4-19 / 36 Charizard

4-21 / 37 Wario
4-19 / 37 Ike
4-19 / 37 Link
4-19 / 37 Zero Suit Samus
4-19 / 37 Yoshi
4-19 / 37 Toon Link
5-20 / 39 Bowser
4-23 / 44 Samus


Foward Roll

5-12 / 23 Metaknight
4-19 / 27 Lucario
4-17 / 27 Pit
4-15 / 27 Zero Suit Samus
4-19 / 29 Diddy
4-19 / 29 Squirtle

4-20 / 31 Kirby
4-19 / 31 Donkey Kong
4-19 / 31 Fox
4-19 / 31 Pikachu
4-19 / 31 Luigi
4-19 / 31 Zelda
4-19 / 31 Sheik
4-19 / 31 Falco
4-19 / 31 Peach
4-19 / 31 Ganondorf
4-19 / 31 Ice Climbers
4-19 / 31 Wolf
4-19 / 31 Ness
4-19 / 31 Sonic
4-19 / 31 Captain Falcon
4-19 / 31 Lucas

3-19 / 32 Jigglypuff
4-19 / 32 Mario
4-19 / 32 Ivysaur
4-19 / 32 King Dedede
4-19 / 32 Olimar

4-19 / 33 Ike
4-21 / 34 R.O.B
4-19 / 34 Yoshi
4-19 / 35 Charizard
4-19 / 35 Marth
4-19 / 35 G&W
4-17 / 35 Snake

4-21 / 37 Wario
4-19 / 37 Link
4-19 / 37 Toon Link
5-20 / 39 Bowser
4-23 / 44 Samus

 

[Le_THieN]

Sweet, there's that list. This actually wasn't the speed I was referring to, though; I was referring to how fast Lucario and Falco actually covers distance as opposed to which characters can act the soonest after rolling cool-down ends.

Minor distinction, though.

 

[Player-1]

well I'm pretty much 100% sure it has something to do with that list, look at ZSS. ZSS's forward roll is one of the best while her back roll is one of the worst. She can forward GT, but she can't backwards glidetoss.

 

[PhantomX]

Yeah, the more I think about it, eventually people will be catching bananas off of sheilds, using an aerial or air-dodge to grab them off the ground, instant throw, and learning to z-catch also. All that said I don't think it will be devastating to Diddy, but it certainly won't help him advance. The best way to describe this is the next time someone uses diddy against you, choose another character. You'll be amazed how well you'll be able to control bananas in comparison to people who don't main diddy.

A lot of us already do this and it still doesn't stop Diddy from being better at it.

 

[Gnes]

A lot of us already do this and it still doesn't stop Diddy from being better at it.

:3 Diddy's ability to adapt is too great. I haven't played a person in tourney in about 3 months who haven't been able to use basic naner techniques. And i still ***** them.

(save PX...)