Path of Radiance: Ike Guide and Strategy Discussion

[RE-DAZ]

still happens to me fighting a ness

 

[Sir_Zedd]

Belated thankyou to the OP, that combo section was really helpful

 

[Planet God Venus]

Did a little big of labbing with Dabuz and apparently Eruption while people are trying to recover is one of Ike's best options...
Why?:
There is one or more frames of vulnerability as someone grabs the ledge and eruption stays out for at least what I think is 5 frames. And the longer you charge eruption the longer the hitbox is apparent. This means we got a free kill option =o!

 

[Deleted member 269706]

Yeah it's a great tool for edge-guarding, because on top of the fact that it can go under the stage, the pillar of smoke that is generated is also a hurtbox, so enemies have a hard time going over or behind Ike as well!

 

[Lavani]

Frame data fun:

Uncharged and partially charged Eruption's explosion is active for 3 frames, with the sword's hitbox being active for 7(!). Fully charged Eruption's explosion is active for 5 frames. All charge levels hit 11 frames after charging ends, so plan accordingly.

Bonus round: Furious Eruption (neutralB 3) is active for 11 frames on uncharged/partially charged and 15 frames on full charge lol

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Random question, but do you guys use the C-Stick for your aerials?

 

[ChivalRuse]

Did a little big of labbing with Dabuz and apparently Eruption while people are trying to recover is one of Ike's best options...
Why?:
There is one or more frames of vulnerability as someone grabs the ledge and eruption stays out for at least what I think is 5 frames. And the longer you charge eruption the longer the hitbox is apparent. This means we got a free kill option =o!

So basically you want to release the eruption around the same time (or slightly before) your opponent snaps to the ledge with their up-b?

 

[Deleted member 269706]

Random question, but do you guys use the C-Stick for your aerials?

Personally I don't. Not with Ike anyways. I use the A + directional input out of habit. I've been planning on switching my jump button from X to L, so I could access the C-stick faster in which case I would start using it. We'll have to see what happens. Yourself?

 

[Arrei]

So basically you want to release the eruption around the same time (or slightly before) your opponent snaps to the ledge with their up-b?

You definitely want to release it slightly before - since it takes a moment for the hitbox to actually come out, and the idea behind ledgeguarding is to have a hitbox out at the frame immediately after the frame where they snap. Since Furious Eruption is active for so long, that just might be the go-to edgeguarding tool for Ike, yes?


For aerial controls, I usually use the A button, with two exceptions - I got in the habit of using the C-stick for Dairs a while back after a few too many accidental fastfalls, and I do use the C-stick when I don't want any horizontal movement during an Fair or Bair, such as when going for an OoS Bair.

 

[Planet God Venus]

So basically you want to release the eruption around the same time (or slightly before) your opponent snaps to the ledge with their up-b?

you got it! except no one uses customs so you gotta be precise with the regular eruption.

 

[san.]

Frame data fun:

Uncharged and partially charged Eruption's explosion is active for 3 frames, with the sword's hitbox being active for 7(!). Fully charged Eruption's explosion is active for 5 frames. All charge levels hit 11 frames after charging ends, so plan accordingly.

Bonus round: Furious Eruption (neutralB 3) is active for 11 frames on uncharged/partially charged and 15 frames on full charge lol

lol!

 

[Arrei]

You think it'd be worth trying to use Aether to ledge guard against low recoveries? It's tougher to time, but if Ragnell's spinning catches the snap the spike's a sure kill.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Probably worth looking into. I could see it working in some matchups.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

It's probably more practical than in Brawl, at least. Plus you don't have to worry about being edgehogged anymore. Your biggest concern is accidentally missing the blade's ledgesnap.

 

[Oblivion129]

About Short Hop Nair:
I normally (and most people, I think) do the Nair at the top of the short hop and press down to fast fall right when the Nair starts.

So I wondered how it would be if I Short Hopped and immediately pressed A (like when doing a fair) and THEN fast falling.
Well, it comes out faster and Ike manages to hit behind him while taking the same amount of time as the other SH Nair.

BUT, since the hitbox comes out faster and you have to wait a little longer to land, it doesn't combo well hitting in front. It does however let you combo with the sourspot, but nothing special. Other way is still better most of the time because of combos, range and you get to hit smaller characters; so just disregard everything I said.



About pivot grabs this time:
I'm standing in front of my opponent and I try to pivot grab but I slide too far back. I'm starting to get the shorter slide ones to work and be able to grab in front, but I'm not sure how lol. Is it because I'm inputting it faster?

 

[san.]

About Short Hop Nair:
I normally (and most people, I think) do the Nair at the top of the short hop and press down to fast fall right when the Nair starts.

So I wondered how it would be if I Short Hopped and immediately pressed A (like when doing a fair) and THEN fast falling.
Well, it comes out faster and Ike manages to hit behind him while taking the same amount of time as the other SH Nair.

BUT, since the hitbox comes out faster and you have to wait a little longer to land, it doesn't combo well hitting in front. It does however let you combo with the sourspot, but nothing special. Other way is still better most of the time because of combos, range and you get to hit smaller characters; so just disregard everything I said.

It won't combo so easily, but SH directly into nair is better as an anti air. It's also good not to fast fall at all if someone is tossing out a projectile. It's susceptible to dash grabs, so it's a risk to do it when jumping forward but has a decent chance of success if they're attacking.

About pivot grabs this time:
I'm standing in front of my opponent and I try to pivot grab but I slide too far back. I'm starting to get the shorter slide ones to work and be able to grab in front, but I'm not sure how lol. Is it because I'm inputting it faster?

They heavily altered roll canceled pivot grabs ever since 1.0.4, so you'll almost always slide now. It's either the speed of the input or where in the running animation that you pivot.

 

[Oblivion129]

It won't combo so easily, but SH directly into nair is better as an anti air. It's also good not to fast fall at all if someone is tossing out a projectile. It's susceptible to dash grabs, so it's a risk to do it when jumping forward but has a decent chance of success if they're attacking.

Yeah, I noticed my retreating Nairs were all SH directly to Nair. I'll still use it like this and for anti-air.
Also, the reverse SH/Full Jump Nairs I've seen Ryo use are useful as well. Landing behind the opponent is normally safer.

They heavily altered roll canceled pivot grabs ever since 1.0.4, so you'll almost always slide now. It's either the speed of the input or where in the running animation that you pivot.

That's strange. Well the sliding one is still useful. I just wanted the shorter slide for when my opponent is right in front of me. Thanks for clearing that up.

 

[RE-DAZ]

A good use for pivot grab is when the opponent have the bad habit of rolling back when they miss a grab or an attack, and it works pretty well on this guys

 

[san.]

In training mode, I was able to combo uthrow->nair vs. Diddy until 130%. With medium rage, it'll probably work until around 100 or so. Even so, that's pretty great. 16% without a pummel, and since you can get 2 pummels at that percent, that's ~22%. If they DI away, that lowers their trajectory, making it even easier. Even fair would hit at 100% if they DI away. The input is to full hop, then input nair the same frame as your double jump. It may kill when there are lower ceilings. If you're not sure whether you'll be able to combo properly or follow their DI, just use nair.

Also, keep in mind dthrow for kills. At >110% rage, you'll be able to kill lightweights around 130 and medium weights around 140. Ike has good pummel dps, so make sure to pummel twice at high percents. Add 10% for battlefield.

 

[MagiusNecros]

I don't use Ike but I have a question starting from 0% if you use a Dthrow and go straight into Aether can the opponent DI or Jump out of that? If not that's a little over 20% of free damage.

 

[san.]

They can get out if Ike is at high rage. If not, they are always susceptible, but the Ike has to respond to the DI. This makes it easier to just use an aerial instead.

 

[MagiusNecros]

So if Ike has no Rage it's guaranteed?

 

[Arrei]

Your opponent can DI towards Ike to be out of Aether's range even at 0%, which leaves much more margin for error when using Aether than just using Uair or Fair.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

This is in the video thread, but it seems to be going slow. For anyone who visits this topic regularly, I felt it would be better to post it here. I'm going up against a Diddy player and he's just wrecking me. What am I doing wrong?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VA5OIEVw2-w
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Z0wALZMQiQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=695AGIEWwT8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9NeS8D-ub8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYPZD0OTmns
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDk4nX14aic
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYl0uW_BcxI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqFYuous3HU

I could really use the critique and greatly appreciate it.

 

[DarkDeity15]

Anyone know for sure if uthrow>bair is guaranteed at low %s?

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

How do you use auto-canceling effectively? I don't use it as often as I should and I habitually fast-fall almost every time I jump.

 

[san.]

How do you use auto-canceling effectively? I don't use it as often as I should and I habitually fast-fall almost every time I jump.

Most simple is if you short hop a bair and fair, don't fast fall. If you full hop a bair or fair, fast fall ASAP. If you full hop a uair or dair, don't fast fall. Then there are imperfect timings of attacks where you should fast fall with the proper timing. You've probably been doing it, just not familiar with the jargon.

Anyone know for sure if uthrow>bair is guaranteed at low %s?

Probably, if you're extremely quick. Maybe on a few of the fastfallers, but people will tend to be a little bit too high before they can air dodge. At low percents, you'd want to do dthrow anyways.

This is in the video thread, but it seems to be going slow. For anyone who visits this topic regularly, I felt it would be better to post it here. I'm going up against a Diddy player and he's just wrecking me. What am I doing wrong?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VA5OIEVw2-w
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Z0wALZMQiQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=695AGIEWwT8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9NeS8D-ub8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYPZD0OTmns
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDk4nX14aic
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYl0uW_BcxI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqFYuous3HU

I could really use the critique and greatly appreciate it.

I'm not very good with video critique but I can get through it sometime through the weekend. I think I have a better grasp on how MUs play out than what I had before.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Am I the only one having problems with out-of-shield and movement options? For OoS options, I shieldgrab. This is a reflex, and one Fox players use to hop down by me, wait for the shieldgrab, airhop, and bair me from behind before I can shield again. When I try to DTilt out of shield, I end up spot-dodging by mistake. How can I use out of shield better and what other options do I have?

For movement, I habitually roll, dash, or hop using my aerials. Do you utilize walking or slower movement?

Also, why is it that Fox and Pikachu players just don't seem to give a crap about my Nairs and DTilts? When I try to maintain my space, they dash through for an attack anyway.

 

[Arrei]

Sounds like you just need to condition yourself to drop your shield sooner on block. I usually jab on shield, though I should probably make a conscious effort to go for Dtilt more often. I'm not very fond of shieldgrabbing as Ike unless the enemy ends up in the perfect position, which isn't often against cautious opponents.

For movement, I don't walk very often, since my usual approach is a dash aerial or empty hop, but I must say I haven't had as much practice at playing Ike defensively.

Fox and Pikachu are aggressive because they have to be - their rush tactics depend on keeping you off your balance and they're at a stark disadvantage if they let you maintain your space. Against a fast character like those two, your spacing game will probably have to feature a lot more empty moves to bait them into doing something you can punish, since they can take advantage of any of our moves with endlag very easily.

 

[san.]

Am I the only one having problems with out-of-shield and movement options? For OoS options, I shieldgrab. This is a reflex, and one Fox players use to hop down by me, wait for the shieldgrab, airhop, and bair me from behind before I can shield again. When I try to DTilt out of shield, I end up spot-dodging by mistake. How can I use out of shield better and what other options do I have?

For movement, I habitually roll, dash, or hop using my aerials. Do you utilize walking or slower movement?

Also, why is it that Fox and Pikachu players just don't seem to give a crap about my Nairs and DTilts? When I try to maintain my space, they dash through for an attack anyway.

Do you have C-stick set to attack? Dtilting with the C-stick is what you want. Dtilt is pretty good against linear approaches such as that.

You want to mix jab and evasive options if your dtilt misses, since it's not guaranteed you'll be able to get the next dtilt off safely against fast characters. You're likely not to get immediately punished from dtilt, but rather whatever you decide to do afterwards. Dtilt is still a great option against opponents who try to dash at you since they're forced to shield or use an aerial that's likely to go over your head. If they whiff an attack above your head when using dtilt, continue to hold down so when you shield, it'll automatically power shield.

Walking is an option if you do it after landing so you don't have to deal with the startup as much. The startup for walking is quite slow so I personally don't use it often from rest. Walking into jab or dtilt using the c-stick is quite potent sometimes.

Nair is punishable on whiff against fast opponents. Even so, it's still great to use for its sheer reward, but you have to mix it up and retreat/fastfall/no fastfall depending on what your opponent is doing. Dtilt is punished if they can shield it close up or if a fast character times a perfect charge from just beyond its reach.

Haven't been on my computer all day so I haven't gotten a chance to look at the videos.

 

[-RedX-]

Wait, what's the difference between Dtilt->hold down->Shield and Dtilt->let stick return to neutral->Shield?

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Do you have C-stick set to attack? Dtilting with the C-stick is what you want. Dtilt is pretty good against linear approaches such as that.

You want to mix jab and evasive options if your dtilt misses, since it's not guaranteed you'll be able to get the next dtilt off safely against fast characters. You're likely not to get immediately punished from dtilt, but rather whatever you decide to do afterwards. Dtilt is still a great option against opponents who try to dash at you since they're forced to shield or use an aerial that's likely to go over your head. If they whiff an attack above your head when using dtilt, continue to hold down so when you shield, it'll automatically power shield.

Walking is an option if you do it after landing so you don't have to deal with the startup as much. The startup for walking is quite slow so I personally don't use it often from rest. Walking into jab or dtilt using the c-stick is quite potent sometimes.

Nair is punishable on whiff against fast opponents. Even so, it's still great to use for its sheer reward, but you have to mix it up and retreat/fastfall/no fastfall depending on what your opponent is doing. Dtilt is punished if they can shield it close up or if a fast character times a perfect charge from just beyond its reach.

Haven't been on my computer all day so I haven't gotten a chance to look at the videos.

What about using C-Stick USmashes or FSmashes, or using other characters? How does that come into play if you switch C-Stick to attack?

 

[Arrei]

Ike doesn't get much mileage out of C-stick Smashes, since FSmash's startup makes it unfeasible to use even if you're positioned perfectly, and having the stick set to Smash can complicate things when you're trying to perform retreating aerials.

Make a profile with Smash stick and another with Attack stick and switch between the two if you're swapping to a character that benefits more from C-Smashes.

 

[san.]

Uthrow->nair definitely seems legit for fast fallers and heavies with the possibility to kill at higher percents and decent rage. Uair's 13 frame hitbox doesn't hit as high as nair so while uair is close to comboing, nair gives that extra edge and ease of use if they DI as well.

Edit: The more the uthrow stales, the easier it seems to continue to combo as well.

 

[Zog]

When I play online, it seems people can air dodge out of those basic combos just in time to escape my aerial after the grab. Am i doing it too slow?

 

[Funkermonster]

Best out of Shield Option?

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Best out of Shield Option?

Shieldgrab, DTilt, jumping nair, jabs, retreat fair, and bair.

 

[PyroTakun]

Shieldgrab, DTilt, jumping nair, jabs, retreat fair, and bair.

/edit

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

I said jabs.

 

[PyroTakun]

I said jabs.

Ha, idk why I didn't see it the first time.

I believe @ san. also mentioned U-Tilt or F-Tilt for a hard punish on slower attacks.