Peach Weekly Match-Up Rediscussion: Meta Knight

[Meru.]

Does grabbing work? I dont know anything at all about this stuff, but it might be a good idea.. xd

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Just camp with turnips and TRY to avoid his tornado at all costs. If you dair and he shields, IMMEDIATELY move away before the dair finishes or try to get behind him to avoid the incoming OoS options. Poke and Run. SAVE YOUR FAIR. Be EXTREMELY patient in this matchup and take things slow. This is one of peach's most turnip spamming matchups.

I definitly agree with this

Praxis, if you use the C Stick when holding an item, you do an OoS Shield item throw. Same goes with Turnips. Try out my described methods and see what you find. C Stick Turnip throwing >>>>>>>> Pressing A to Turnip throw

 

[Praxis]

I'll definitely give it a shot but you still end up having very very few options. You can't get in the air or you get tornado *****. You can't approach without getting *****. If you're on a stage with platforms, he can tornado when you pull the turnip and end it on the platform and not get punished; on FD, he can tornado away and it's really HARD to punish.

All you can do is try to camp him, but if he can powershield or glide toss the turnips back...you're screwed. When the MK knows the matchup, it's a hard counter IMO.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

I'll definitely give it a shot but you still end up having very very few options. You can't get in the air or you get tornado *****. You can't approach without getting *****. If you're on a stage with platforms, he can tornado when you pull the turnip and end it on the platform and not get punished; on FD, he can tornado away and it's really HARD to punish.

All you can do is try to camp him, but if he can powershield or glide toss the turnips back...you're screwed. When the MK knows the matchup, it's a hard counter IMO.

Great Hope your testing goes ok

And I'm by no means saying this is a saving grace vs MK, it just can help a bit not only with this, but a lot more with other match ups (Zelda springs to mind). F Tilt won't work very well due to how well you can be punished. Toad is almost worthless against an MK who sees it coming. As you said, if MK knows the match up, it'll be incredibly hard...unfortunetly this is one of Peach's rather nasty downfalls...

I wanted to ask people something though - what does everyone think about Peach's Up + B when recovering vs MK?

 

[Praxis]

Great Hope your testing goes ok

And I'm by no means saying this is a saving grace vs MK, it just can help a bit not only with this, but a lot more with other match ups (Zelda springs to mind). F Tilt won't work very well due to how well you can be punished. Toad is almost worthless against an MK who sees it coming. As you said, if MK knows the match up, it'll be incredibly hard...unfortunetly this is one of Peach's rather nasty downfalls...

I wanted to ask people something though - what does everyone think about Peach's Up + B when recovering vs MK?

Oh man, I thought Peach could get past MK well with it, but then I fought Sean, who regularly fights Sky and knows the Peach matchup. It's like, impossible to recover low- my recovery strategy was to dive into his attacks and DI up and then recover above him, LOL.

I think the up-B has invincibility frames at some point, you CAN usually slip it past MK, but you have to be careful. RECOVER HIGH, AND DI UP.

 

[White-Peach]

Abusing peach recovering low and auto-grabbing the ledge requires ledgegrabbing for invincibility while she parasols up, dropping, and using an attack that is fast enough to hit her underside. I do this with peach v peach with UAir, and i know MK's UAir is stupidly fast.

 

[Morrigan]

I think he meant throwing a turnip OOS while glide tossing backwards. I don't think that's possible.

Lol I'm an idiot, I do this all the time. Guess I wasn't paying attention when I wrote that



Anywayyy, where the fruck are the MK mains.

 

[Praxis]

Lol I'm an idiot, I do this all the time. Guess I wasn't paying attention when I wrote that



Anywayyy, where the fruck are the MK mains.

Frankly, I don't want them here and I plan to delete my posts once we've got a decided matchup number, because I'd rather not have a documented "how to beat Peach" post sitting out here. xD

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Beating Peach? You can't, don't be silly. It's impossible to DI out of Dair combos and her Fair never gets stale and has the power of Snake's F Smash. Fully charged. She also pulls up the heads of her defeated foes from the ground which do at least 40% damage and shatter your shield regardless of whether you perfect shield or not. You can't dodge them either cause they just sit there and follow you until your invinciblity frames wear off

:3

Lol MK's F Smash. It's like the upper part of it is designed to hit Peach out of her Fair xD

 

[goodkid]

This match u have to be extra defensive, don't really even attack, it will take a lot of fainting & baiting w/ float to beat MK. At top-level, I bet the clock will run out, so try to build as much damage as possible & run away ^_^.

 

[deepseadiva]

Lol, that's how I took the only one stock off of M2K when I played him Peach vs MK. Against the Whorenado I think the only thing you can do is that.

Lols, congrats good sir. A stock off M2K is something worth a badge.

If an MK really, really knows the Peach matchup, it's 70:30 and Peach's worst matchup by far. 65:35 at best.

I'm getting quite convinced. I'm putting it at 65 now, but I can see it as 70 - I just haven't fought a die-hard defensive MK as you say.

Though, following everything said - wouldn't free pulled turnips be something really big in this matchup? Retreating while pulling turnips sounds really safe.

Infact...you do know you can throw Turnips OoS right?

I lol'd at this. Praxis, like, invented it. xD

Frankly, I don't want them here and I plan to delete my posts once we've got a decided matchup number, because I'd rather not have a documented "how to beat Peach" post sitting out here. xD

I was wondering about that. ^^
Don't need these quotes in the MK's matchup guide.

*plans to delete quotes at first sight of an MK*

 

[Morrigan]

^^^

For once I think that Peach Back Room group is good for something.
"No one" can see discussions like that. And I put it between " " because anyone switching mains/friends of someone/mods could probably see it.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

yesh head to the BRoom most of us are in there and i can always request you get entrance if you don't have it, this is one of those times it can be really useful, in more ways than one.

 

[deepseadiva]

How do we feel about... planking?

Does it work against Peach?

 

[Airgemini]

Didnt Dark lose a match from a MK planking?
I think Peach can plank fairly well, letting go of the edge and double jumping back to it is amazing since the height of the jump is pretty unpunishable.

 

[Sky`]

Didnt Dark lose a match from a MK planking?
I think Peach can plank fairly well, letting go of the edge and double jumping back to it is amazing since the height of the jump is pretty unpunishable.

Well, nobody really pays attention to her infinite ledge stall.

Wtf? What is sky talking about?

yeah, you can hang on that ledge and only have 1 frame of non invincibility or something. It's a really small margin of vulnerability.

Look up Marth's infinite ledge stall, and it's the same for peach.

Get on the ledge.
Press back.
Jump.
UpB

That's the motion, you should go straight to the ledge if you're fast enough, look it up on yuuu toooob.

 

[Razmakazi]

wow that's hella gay. i was just messing w/ it in practice mode. ima use that **** if the time comes next tournament.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

since Praxis doesn't want the MKs to know secret,s might we decide to move some of the rediscussions to the PBR? just a suggestion.

 

[Praxis]

Well, nobody really pays attention to her infinite ledge stall.

Wtf? What is sky talking about?

yeah, you can hang on that ledge and only have 1 frame of non invincibility or something. It's a really small margin of vulnerability.

Look up Marth's infinite ledge stall, and it's the same for peach.

Get on the ledge.
Press back.
Jump.
UpB

That's the motion, you should go straight to the ledge if you're fast enough, look it up on yuuu toooob.

Oh wow that's so easy :o I'm gonna use it. xD

 

[Kataefi]

Peach back room?

But how would regular peach mainers know what's going on? ^^

 

[JigglyZelda003]

most of us who have posted here have access to it, we have like 20 members. then i can always vouch for those who want to be in the discussion for Mpeach to let them in even just temporarily.

 

[Excel_Zero]

Get on the ledge.
Press back.
Jump.
UpB

I always do:

Get on ledge.
Press back or down (fastfalling works).
Uair.
UpB to regrab ledge.

Works nice, and it's good for baiting the opponents into grabbing the ledge to try and edgehog (not that they can, but of course they can wait till the UpB goes above them and hit you). If you see they get on the ledge, you can wait till their invincibility frames are over using your second jump (even float if still available) and hit with UpB. That's my way of doing ledgecaming.

It's been a while since I have contributed with anything at all to the Peach community... and I'm feeling kind of dumb in this matchup at the moment. I dunno why. :S

But to win you need to play safe, and let them come to you. You need to be good at predicting so you expect what they're going to do and punish as much as you can. Maybe later I will post some more about this matchup.

 

[Praxis]

I always do:

Get on ledge.
Press back or down (fastfalling works).
Uair.
UpB to regrab ledge.

Works nice, and it's good for baiting the opponents into grabbing the ledge to try and edgehog (not that they can, but of course they can wait till the UpB goes above them and hit you). If you see they get on the ledge, you can wait till their invincibility frames are over using your second jump (even float if still available) and hit with UpB. That's my way of doing ledgecaming.

It's been a while since I have contributed with anything at all to the Peach community... and I'm feeling kind of dumb in this matchup at the moment. I dunno why. :S

But to win you need to play safe, and let them come to you. You need to be good at predicting so you expect what they're going to do and punish as much as you can. Maybe later I will post some more about this matchup.

I've done this, but you lose a lot of vertical height from the uair- I actually have had someone run down and grab the ledge during the up-B and kill me with the edgehog >_<

The people around here know how to edgehog Peach's up-B. They grab it, then pull up right before the tip hits them off.

 

[$BONE$]

Easy easy easy. Metaknight is easy. Always hit him with the second frame of back air and follow up with f-tilt. Constantly punish with the second back-air frame, it makes them less aggressive. It stuns them for a dash attack follow up also, aside f-tilt. It rules at life. Its all theory of course. Don't listen to me, never mind.

 

[Excel_Zero]

I've done this, but you lose a lot of vertical height from the uair- I actually have had someone run down and grab the ledge during the up-B and kill me with the edgehog >_<

The people around here know how to edgehog Peach's up-B. They grab it, then pull up right before the tip hits them off.

Yeah, but as I said, you can be unpredictable using the second jump.

And people around here also know how to edgehog Peach's UpB. They did it to me the very first tournament I used Peach. And that was a long time ago. ^^

 

[Eddie G]

Alright so the only things I know to do in this matchup are well timed f-smashes against the tornado, u-tilt from below if they start to heavily rely on dair, space and punish with bairs as they can contend with his aerials, to be wary of his up-B OoS if we attempt to come in with any dairs, and just camp until an opportunity arises to punish him. I need to polish up on this matchup some more.

Something I personally like to do is space with a small barrage of d-tilts to fairs as I'm sliding back. The slide helps to outspace his fairs/f-tilts and occasionally leaves an opportunity to score a fair if they decide not to sit in their shield. Not only that but it leaves me at a safe distance not to be punished by the up-B OoS. D-tilt is seriously too good. <3

 

[JigglyZelda003]

can he like dash attack after the Fair though if he charged in near the same time?

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

It's been a week nearly since I started this topic. I'm giving these topics a week before I start to think about who I'll do next. I'll open up the next person tomorrow probably...

...although, as sadistic as it might sound, I would much rather start things up again when we have everyone here again. It's a double edged sword...

Also, it's difficult for me to say because I don't attend tourneys and therefore my money isn't on the line but I am highly against deleting information so that other people can't see it. That doesn't avoid the problem - it delays it. Not to mention the write up will be rubbish. If something isn't mentioned/is deleted and a Peach player comes up against a sort of tactic/counter tactic, they won't have a clue on how to deal with it because the information won't be there

 

[JigglyZelda003]

tough call Ricky. what a time for Dark and Niko to get banned huh?

 

[Deleted member]

waiting for them is a good idea, or if you are impatient, we can just try aim, since they both have it.

 

[Villi]

That ledge stall with Marth and Peach leaves you vulnerable for a small amount of time (no invincibility or hitbox) at the worst possible spot. If you get knocked away with a well-timed and sufficiently low hitting down smash, you're screwed.

Two things MKs who know the Peach match up like to do is beat fair approaches with shuttle loop and tornado as soon as they hear her turnip pull.

On the ground, shuttle loop has 1 frame of invincibility, when its hitbox comes out. That's why it will always beat Peach's fair when properly used defensively. In the air, it doesn't have invincibility at all.

You can bait and punish shuttle loops. Nobody talks about this on the Peach boards that I've seen, but MK already expects it. lol If you know the spacing for shuttle loop, and you fall into it, chances are they want to shuttle loop you. Duh. If they expect that you know the spacing, they'll wait for you to twitch (try to punish it with a nair or air dodge) and then shuttle loop you after. My only advice is to keep yourself properly spaced while you're falling and choose your option wisely. Fast fall dair, toad, nair, float/double jump, peach bomber.

Grounded shuttle loops are just something you don't need to go up against head on. It's not worth it to try to fair him when he can just shuttle loop you. There is a space right above him where you can float where if he shuttle loops, he'll loop around you and you can punish him with an aerial.

Spoiler

But that's just a risk to take when you think he'll go for a shuttle loop and not a nair oos. It's about the point where your dair wouldn't hit him if you floated above him. So you could just put a hitbox right over his head and see what he does about it.

Anyway, you can punish shuttle loop spam a number of ways since his glide attack clashes with everything and he's in freefall after.

When peach pulls a turnip, there's not much she can do about the tornado unless she has a special turnip. So damage control:

Pull your turnips facing away from MK. Dashing way to give yourself space is a good way to accomplish this. If you see a tornado you can either roll away, hold A, and let an fsmash loose or just glide toss away.

Tornado has lag -- lots of MKs like to end their tornado while they're still in the air to give them the illusion of no lag. When they land, you'll probably be met with a down smash for trying to punish because they've completed their lag before touching the ground. If you predict a down smash, please use an appropriate aerial.

The way MKs keep tornado safe is by hitting your shield, then retreating so that their lag can't be punished. There's an optimum spacing for this and all I can say is you should know it. What they want you to do is approach so that they can punish you. If they predict that you're going to chase after their tornado, they can just leave it there for an extra second for you to run into it. They could also go for the silly tornado Peach as she's pulling a turnip thing, which only works if Peach doesn't know what's up. It's punishable. Know your MK.

Learn to SDI out of tornado if you get hit. Depending on the direction they're carrying you, there's a best SDI for every kind. If they're carrying you upward, you want to SDI down and toward the direction you're being hit. If they're going across the ground, DI up and try to footstool it. If they're starting to fall, that means they're losing b-mash priority and sometimes you can just dair or nair and hit them.

Also, learn to DI his throws properly. He has follow-ups for any direction you choose from dthrow, but it's not practical to play against MK worrying about never being grabbed. If he dthrows you, mix it up between up, down-away, and whatever else you think might be unexpected. You might even be able to punish a whiffed follow-up attempt if you're smart.

xD I guess I didn't get invited to the backroom cuz I'm not a Peach main

 

[hotgarbage]

On the ground, shuttle loop has 1 frame of invincibility, when its hitbox comes out. That's why it will always beat Peach's fair when properly used defensively. In the air, it doesn't have invincibility at all.

minor correction: grounded shuttle loop is invincible on frames 5-8; so 4 frames total. Yeah it's no fun . You're right about it not having invinc in the air.

Tornado has lag

YESSSS


I already briefly mentioned this in my earlier post... but I think I'll go into it a bit more here (though I'm probably just repeating stuff that's already known :V).

Nado ALWAYS has 29 frames of cooldown. (unless they get the bad landing). Landing lag adjusts to this.
If after the tornado mk is falling for 5 frames, he will have 24 frames of landing lag.
If after the tornado mk is falling for 24 frames, he will have 5 frames of landing lag.

But really the landing lag doesn't matter. Because regardless he is unable to perform any actions for 29 frames.... which will be plenty of time to drop your shield and land an fsmash.... or maybe even a usmash if he lands right next to you, giving you time to quickly dash inside him before the move is done (I say maybe because I'm not sure how it's crap hitbox would perform in this situation)

This is why it's important to practice releasing your shield at the soonest possible moment; which is slightly tricky to do against the nado because of it's very low shield hitlag and shield stun.

So yeah, if the mk gets greedy and stops his nado near you, greet him with a pan to the face ^_____^.

 

[SSJ5Goku8932]

You mean Golf club.

 

[Praxis]

This is why it's important to practice releasing your shield at the soonest possible moment; which is slightly tricky to do against the nado because of it's very low shield hitlag and shield stun.

So yeah, if the mk gets greedy and stops his nado near you, greet him with a pan to the face ^_____^.

We can't assume the MK's are going to just stop the nado near you at high levels of play. I can't see Peach getting much out of it past a dash attack. And then he can Nado again and your shield isn't strong enough to stop it without breaking >_<

 

[Razmakazi]

I played Tyrant's MK in tourney on saturday. Basically I won round 1 coz he wasn't camping and playing gay and well I'm a Peach so I camped his **** (DUH!) and then round 2 and 3 it was just shield camping. nados on jumps and the threat of nados on turnip pulls (he didn't do it EVERY time so I kinda had to control myself...idk it was just hard). Shuttle loop everytime I got close. Even when I chased down his spaced nado's and tried to grab or dash attack shuttle loop activated even AFTER the first hit of dash attack connected. If I tried to float near him at all I ate the Shuttle Loop. This match-up is really gay. It's like 70:30. Praxis is right. Rly good + Rly Gay Metaknight = Retardedly hard and retardedly campy. If it was a big tourney I would've tried to plank, no b.s. =o

 

[Praxis]

I played Tyrant's MK in tourney on saturday. Basically I won round 1 coz he wasn't camping and playing gay and well I'm a Peach so I camped his **** (DUH!) and then round 2 and 3 it was just shield camping. nados on jumps and the threat of nados on turnip pulls (he didn't do it EVERY time so I kinda had to control myself...idk it was just hard). Shuttle loop everytime I got close. Even when I chased down his spaced nado's and tried to grab or dash attack shuttle loop activated even AFTER the first hit of dash attack connected. If I tried to float near him at all I ate the Shuttle Loop. This match-up is really gay. It's like 70:30. Praxis is right. Rly good + Rly Gay Metaknight = Retardedly hard and retardedly campy. If it was a big tourney I tried to plank, no b.s. =o

Yep, Tyrant was at the tourney I went to, we even discussed that exact strategy.

We played friendlies, and he told me "if this were tournament I'd camp you to death". And several other Cali people camped Peaches in the same manner.

It's retardedly gay.

 

[Villi]

I'm not saying you should win, cuz I guess Peach should lose to Meta. But that strategy wouldn't work nearly as well if you didn't walk obliviously into situations where he can exploit you.

 

[Praxis]

Villi, your post contained the best information I've read, and you've got the most experience in the matchup because WA MK's have only just now figured out to play like that and SoCal's been doing it for a bit. But would you agree that it's at least 65:35 MK's favor? You basically have to rely on making him mess up and vastly outplaying him, amirite?

 

[deepseadiva]

I'm gonna be honest here.

This discussion made me really depressed.

How do manage to grab a major disadvantage to the most popular character in the game.

 

[Praxis]

Yyyyep.
Peach is not a competitively viable character because of MK IMO; in that, you CANNOT win a major national tournament without a secondary to deal with a gay MK, unless the MK's don't know the matchup. Even when Azen tried to go all Peach at a tournament he used Fox whenever someone came out with MK; and East coast MK's don't seem to gay Peaches as much (M2K was doing it wrong LOL).

Just an opinion I've developed lately. Your choice whether or not you agree *shrug* but I don't believe Peach to be high tier because of MK.

Honestly, if Peach's turnips just went through MK's tornado, she could outcamp him and have a good enough matchup to be high tier.