Perfect Pivot Dsmash

[AviaRy]

Hey guys,

I've been experimenting lately with perfect pivot dsmash (PPDsmash) as an additional Punish/kill/combo finish option for Fox.
As many of you probably know, Dsmash doesn't stop fox from sliding during the perfect pivot. Because Fox's PP is so long, PPDsmash can be a really useful tool for punishing movement flubs that are otherwise hard to punish (Like Marth landing w/ lag after doing a Fair).
It can also serve as a horizontal kill option that is much, much faster (and just as long) as Fsmash.

Here's what I've discovered so far:

• FFdair into PPDsmash combos at low to mid percents, is much safer than FFdair into Usmash (at low percents), and saves you the trouble of staling Usmash.
• PPDsmash moves you very quickly in a very short period of time, making it good for punishing laggy landings in a suprising way
• It's difficult to do out of shield, but if timed precisely it could catch some characters out of rolls for a quick kill (As opposed to dash attack, which doesn't kill until exorbitant percents)

Please, let me know what you think.
How good of an alternative to Fsmash/Usmash is it?
Do you know of other ways to combo/string into it?
What do you think it's worth as a combo finisher/option is?

 

[luke_atyeo]

I suppose a big question you want answered is: does PPDsmash come out in less frames than running usmash?

There are many situations in this game where fox can punish something with a dash attack, but not with a running usmash, because the usmash is just that slight bit slower than dash attack. If it were to be found that in these same situations PPDsmash could hit where running usmash could not, that would be a pretty big discovery I think.

 

[AviaRy]

I suppose a big question you want answered is: does PPDsmash come out in less frames than running usmash?

There are many situations in this game where fox can punish something with a dash attack, but not with a running usmash, because the usmash is just that slight bit slower than dash attack. If it were to be found that in these same situations PPDsmash could hit where running usmash could not, that would be a pretty big discovery I think.

I think you've read my mind on this one, that seems to be the most important question. Because you can do a PP out of a foxtrot, PPDsmash could be a good option for a punish in place of running Usmash / Dash attack.

I don't know how many frames a PP is, but here's the framedata on dash attack + Fox's smashes from kuroganehammer.com.

• Dash Attack 4-7
• Dsmash 6-7 (Leg Intangibility: 6-7) BKB 30 KBG 75
• Usmash 8-9 (Foot Intangibility: 1-9) BKB 30 KBG 94
• Fsmash 13-15 BKB 20 KBG 98

So Dsmash comes out 2 frames faster than Usmash but 2 frames slower than dash attack.That's already a frame advantage on Usmash, although dash attack retains it's usefulness as Fox's quickest punish.
As far as raw knockback goes, however, Dsmash is by far Fox's weakest smash. However, it retains some usefulness as a horizontal kill option (the KB angle on the two foot hitboxes is 25).

Next we'd have to look at from data for running the length of a PP vs. a PP before deciding if Dsmash could be used as an alternative for running Usmash as a punish.

 

[Gretalian]

I've tried to think of many scenarios to use pp dsmash but every time i do. I think of fox's fsmash. pretty much covers the same areas.

Just throwing that out there. someone correct me if im wrong.

 

[AviaRy]

I've tried to think of many scenarios to use pp dsmash but every time i do. I think of fox's fsmash. pretty much covers the same areas.

Just throwing that out there. someone correct me if im wrong.

Well the point of it is that PPDsmash comes out faster than Fsmash and has a better angle (sets up for edgeguards, mixes up DI, can be linked into by FFDair, etc). It's an alternate option, so of course it shares similar situations with Fsmash.

I can see your reasoning though, there might not be a point in doing PPDsmash a lot of the time unless you have practiced it enough to be consistent (I'm pretty close to that atm). Doing Fsmash is much simpler 90% of the time, to be sure.

 

[EpicSonicLatios]

This is basically the only argument for having smash stick on, other than personal comfort (which is a completely reasonable argument). I don't think it's worth switching to smash stick for this, especially since you lose the ability to PP Utilt for additional combo strings, or PP Ftilt for extra spacing options. Not only is it slower than dash attack, but I would be willing to bet that an instant dash attack still outranges a PP dsmash, and if it doesn't, dashing forward an extra frame or two should do the trick. Worst of all, if you try to get too hasty with your punish option, you will eat a heavy punish due to how unsafe dsmash is on shield. Not only is dsmash weaker than usmash, but PP dsmash is probably harder than a dash usmash in a match. It's only 2 frames faster, just as punishable, and much weaker, while also rendering options like PP Utilt unusable. I just don't see how it's worth it, honestly

 

[G-Sword]

Dumb question but I'm trying to learn how to perfect pivot utilt and dsmash. How do u perform these? I'm already very good without them but would love to know how to do it and add to the arsenal

 

[AviaRy]

Step 1 - Perfect pivot: or
Step 2 - Down smash/utilt: for Dsmash (c-stick on smash) or for Utilt (c-stick on attack)

Do it too slow and it's not useful. Do it too fast and you get a dash attack. Practice until you find the rhythm. Then practice until you can do it consistently.

 

[Deleted member 269706]

So I have my c-stick set to attacks, is it even possible to PPDsmash with this set up or would I have to switch it to smash attacks to do that?

 

[AviaRy]

I haven't tested the maneuver with c-stick on attack, but I imagine you could. It would just be much, much harder, just as doing PPDtilt with c-stick on smash is much, much harder.

If you're comfortable playing with c-stick on attack (something I should learn to do, honestly, so that I can vary my control set to fit the matchup) then you should probably stick to it unless you feel the need for more kill options. Attempting to do a PPDsmash w/ c-stick on attack likely makes PPDsmash lose the frame data advantage it has over Usmash, so there's little point do trying to do it. With c-stick on attack, you're much better off going for PPutilt + an aerial.

 

[luke_atyeo]

yes you can PP Dsmash with your cstick set to attacks, and it isnt that much harder, its just a little slower

What his means is if you do a PP Dsmash with the c stick (cstick set to smashes) you can Start charging your Dsmash as soon as the PP begins and by the time the PP ends you get a half charge or so Dsmash.

If you have attack stick, you have to input the PP, and then use the control stick for the dsmash, which takes longer so you wont be able to charge the dsmash as you are sliding, it'll just come out uncharged as your pp ends.

 

[Kanunuu]

I think this is largely outclassed by c stick set to attack. Not only for the reasons mentioned by epicsoniclatios. You lose out on many different combos. The one mentioned above^ "down air > pp dsmash" is largely outclassed by pp uptilt which can lead into up air at the percents that dair works. This leads into juggles and frame traps which leads me to my second point. Shorthop up air. By having c stick to smash, you lose most of the practicality of this, due to how difficult it is to pull off. If you do it too early, you get an up smash and if you do it too late, you miss the auto cancel window. Foxes juggle game is one of his largest strengths, and you lose a huge part of it by not having access to an on demand short hop up air and pp uptilt. I would strongly recommend against it.