Pessimism and Brawl

[Dumah]

I never once said Brawl isn't competitive. I asked if it should be. Even Gimpy has stated that it's competitive, and I haven't seen him state that it isn't. I was asking questions and asking for some discussion, dont put words in my mouth or I will rain hell down on you like there's no tomorrow.

I myself think it's competitive, but at the same time the huge punishing things in it aren't as cool as combos in Melee. There is massive punishment in Brawl with **** like CG'ing and Sheik's F Tilt, but it's all match up dependent for the most part.


Also, Brawl has about as many top characters as Melee did, people ***** about how MK *****, but Sheik in Melee owned everything twice as hard as he ever will. Think about that, we've created a new community that *****es about characters with mainly 6-4 or 5-5 match ups and call for him to be banned when it was even worse in the previous game. So this whole unbalanced **** can either get some better representation or GET THE **** OUT OF MY TOPIC.

What is it about what I said, particularily what you quoted has got you in such a fit. You're whining and taking offense to something that is an opinion of mine. An opinion which you seem to have wanted by making a topic about this subject. So don't get all puffed up saying you'll "rain hell down" lmao. I can't help but laugh at that....sorry.

You said this:

It just seems like even people who genuinely like Brawl seem to berate it often, and its faults are being discussed as often as it's Meta Game is

And I said that's the category I fit into. The person who genuinely likes Brawl, but bashes it for being shoddy.

I'm not putting any words in your mouth...none. I gave you my opinion on the subject at hand.

 

[Yuna]

Most of the things that made Melee so technical and skill-based were just exploits and glitches, or at least things that were never intended.

So you're saying Sakurai has a master plan of exactly how Smash should be planned and deviating from that plan, like, say, doing things that aren't glitches in ways he didn't expect us to use them would be performing exploits and somehow bad?

Yes, let's all march to Japan and demand Sakurai reveal unto exactly how he wants us to play Brawl, because that's, after all, the only way to play Brawl.

Also, name all of these glitches and exploits.

I have never seen a game developer ever intentionally leave exploits and glitches in a game just because it makes the game "cool".

Name these glitches and exploits. Also, it happens all the time.

They are most likely trying to keep their integrity by having people play the game they have intended and fix the problems (or blessings in Melee's case) they have made. After all, it is their game.

There it is again! Sakurai has a master plan. He intends for us to play the game one way and not playing that way is bad!

I am not saying this is should be a good thing. I also think it is total crap to take out an aspect of the game that required skill and dedication to master. But hey... that's where our new generation of games is going. The easier/less complexed, the more appealing it is to casual gamers. That's where most consumers come from now for nearly every game: the casual community.

How easy it is to do is inconsequential. It's all about what we can do.

 

[eyestrain92]

I lol'd. Someone's head exploded.

Shiek? Last time I checked, Falco and Fox were the two best characters in Melee, but that's just me.

I think it's almost better without true combos, save it weakened Captain Falcon so much >_> No, CF, we love you!!!

But who cares? At least there's more potential character variety, and that's why I enjoy it more. I got bored of seeing five characters dominate, and now we get what, ten or seven?

 

[Yuna]

I lol'd. Someone's head exploded.

Shiek? Last time I checked, Falco and Fox were the two best characters in Melee, but that's just me.

Yes, the fact that we often mention that Sheik dominated the early metagame means absolutely nothing. Or that Sheik is, what, 3rd best, that obviously means nothing as well.

Or that Sheik shuts down a large part of the cast with, among other things, chaingrabbing. She 10-0s Bowser, for instance.

But who cares? At least there's more potential character variety, and that's why I enjoy it more. I got bored of seeing five characters dominate, and now we get what, ten or seven?

More like we get 4. Meta, Snake, Game & Watch and DeDeDe. DeDeDe's lagging behind, though. This despite the fact that Brawl has more characters and is still pretty new. Hmmmmm...

 

[MarKO X]

Demp must be new to video games in general. Bugs, glitches, exploits, unintentions, and everything else are left in games because generally, no one has the time to remove them all. This is why things like L-cancelling and WaveDashing are gone, but CGs are still in. If Sakurai really doesn't like competitive gaming (which he doesn't, nothing wrong with that as a person, maybe something a little wrong with that as a director for a fighting video game), he would've made it such that CGs wouldn't exist, because, well, if I didn't know any better... a CG is an exploit. No where in the manual or the dojo does it say, "certain characters have chain grabs that can be used to completely eliminate whole stocks!"

If anyone wants, I can name many, many exploits in video games.. in general... namely 2d classics though, that's where many feel I excel. lol

 

[GreenKirby]

Because since the I play Brawl begrudgingly.

Nobody's pointing a gun to your head.

 

[Yuna]

Nobody's pointing a gun to your head.

I was questioned as to why I'm even on these boards. I pointed out that I actually play Brawl.

No one's forcing me to, I choose to. But just because I play Brawl doesn't mean I can't talk about its blatant flaws.

 

[MarKO X]

I was questioned as to why I'm even on these boards. I pointed out that I actually play Brawl.

No one's forcing me to, I choose to. But just because I play Brawl doesn't mean I can't talk about its blatant flaws.

Sooooo....

Do you play Brawl to point out it's flaws?
Or you point out its flaws because you play Brawl?

 

[Yuna]

Sooooo....

Do you play Brawl to point out it's flaws?
Or you point out its flaws because you play Brawl?

I play Brawl because I go to a lot of anime conventions and people there favour Brawl.

 

[LordoftheMorning]

Unfortunately, we live in an age of skepticism. The elitists of any given topic are too arrogant to say that anything contemporary is "good". This definitely includes smash, American politics of late, and the War in Iraq. The Elitists are pompous, and everyone else is skeptic because the media/elitists/experts (in Iraq's case the media) tell them to be. It irks me that no one openly hope toward the future. We aren't exited about our technology (they just pollute the environment), we aren't exited about our government (it sucks right?), and we aren't exited about our GAMES!

LotM to world: LIGHTEN UP, NOOBS! I agree with the maker of this thread.

 

[Ryan-K]

did you seriously just compare hating brawl to the iraq war or am i just out of it

 

[GreenKirby]

I was questioned as to why I'm even on these boards. I pointed out that I actually play Brawl.

My gun to head thing still applies. lol

No one's forcing me to, I choose to. But just because I play Brawl doesn't mean I can't talk about its blatant flaws.

But if you play surely you must like something about it's blatant greatnesses.... like tripping......... from certain attacks. lol

 

[MarKO X]

yeah, he made some comparison to smash and the war in iraq... i'm not sure if it's relevant because he compared the Smash "elitist" to the media... which is foolish because the media doesn't tell all. Smash "elitists" do... because they know "all."

Note: elitist and all are just labels because of the given context. don't take it literally.

 

[Fletch]

Melee had the same amount of strategy as brawl does, in addition to the tech skill required. Brawl's removal of tech skill means that any scrub can jump right into competitive play without knowing what the **** they're doing. It doesn't make the game more about "strategy", it just means that strategy becomes important at every level of the game instead of only the higher levels.

Even if Brawl had the same amount of strategy as Melee did I wouldn't be mad; however, with removal of things like the wavedash, l-canceling, etc., they removed so many more options that we previously had, and we are left with one fairly dominant strategy. I would argue that not only can Brawl not even shake a stick at Melee's tech skill, but at it's strategy level as well.

Most of the things that made Melee so technical and skill-based were just exploits and glitches, or at least things that were never intended. I have never seen a game developer ever intentionally leave exploits and glitches in a game just because it makes the game "cool". They are most likely trying to keep their integrity by having people play the game they have intended and fix the problems (or blessings in Melee's case) they have made. After all, it is their game.

You are an idiot. This has been addressed too many times for me to remember, read up before you post something so stupid. Usually I don't just post like this, but come on, we can only rehash stuff so many times...

 

[Fletch]

Unfortunately, we live in an age of skepticism. The elitists of any given topic are too arrogant to say that anything contemporary is "good". This definitely includes smash, American politics of late, and the War in Iraq. The Elitists are pompous, and everyone else is skeptic because the media/elitists/experts (in Iraq's case the media) tell them to be. It irks me that no one openly hope toward the future. We aren't exited about our technology (they just pollute the environment), we aren't exited about our government (it sucks right?), and we aren't exited about our GAMES!

LotM to world: LIGHTEN UP, NOOBS! I agree with the maker of this thread.

Where the hell are we going?

 

[LordoftheMorning]

Where the hell are we going?

We're going toward a better future in all respects like we have been since humans walked the earth. Anyone who would disagree is a perfect example of the skeptics of everything I was talking about. Would you seriously lose all faith in the human race based on your experience of a single and incomplete lifetime? I'm not really talking about brawl pessimism specifically -__-.

And elitists are of course going to have much more loyalty to the topic that which made them eiltists in the first place (melee) than a new work in the field (brawl). Grandparents: Kids these days.... Media: Politicians these days.... College English professors: Books these days.... The list goes on.

 

[Ryan-K]

wow way to totally miss the point

people dont like brawl because its retardedly defensive and extremely spammy/campy and imbalanced not because of some nostalgic bs like you seem to claim

 

[Vulcan55]

Even though nobody here is being an "elitist", before Brawl, Melee-ers had no reason to be elitist. There was no other game whose community to belittle.
Saying Melee made the "elitists" who they are is incorrect.
Plus you totally are misusing the word "elitist" just like every other Brawl noob on these boards.

 

[Fletch]

We're going toward a better future in all respects like we have been since humans walked the earth. Anyone who would disagree is a perfect example of the skeptics of everything I was talking about. Would you seriously lose all faith in the human race based on your experience of a single and incomplete lifetime? I'm not really talking about brawl pessimism specifically -__-.

And elitists are of course going to have much more loyalty to the topic that which made them eiltists in the first place (melee) than a new work in the field (brawl). Grandparents: Kids these days.... Media: Politicians these days.... College English professors: Books these days.... The list goes on.

Way to totally miss what I was going for... I think I'm going to exit this thread.

 

[Falconv1.0]

What is it about what I said, particularily what you quoted has got you in such a fit. You're whining and taking offense to something that is an opinion of mine. An opinion which you seem to have wanted by making a topic about this subject. So don't get all puffed up saying you'll "rain hell down" lmao. I can't help but laugh at that....sorry.

You said this:



And I said that's the category I fit into. The person who genuinely likes Brawl, but bashes it for being shoddy.

I'm not putting any words in your mouth...none. I gave you my opinion on the subject at hand.

Sorry, misread your post, I read it as "I agree with the OP", since I was more/less skimming.


i make big stoopidz, meh bad


And oh no, trust me, if I'm angry enough, your *** is mine for the remaining time I'm bored on SWF, el oh el oh el oh el.


And hey anonymous uber nub, those elitists were there during Melee, winning **** and being the best at their tourneys. So the sequel to their favorite game sucked (in their opinion) thus they want to voice their opinion. So get the **** over it.


It's not just the elitists, it's pretty much everybody. Over half of the good/semi good Brawl players I see often berate Brawl constantly. This isn't just "I think this game is better" it's more like "This game sucks, I play it for the money" kind of ****.

 

[Ryan-K]

elitist means you think you're better than someone else

what do the individual egos of people have to do with ANY of this

stop throwing around a word just because it looks cool or something especially when you dont know what it means

 

[Falconv1.0]

elitist means you think you're better than someone else

what do the individual egos of people have to do with ANY of this

stop throwing around a word just because it looks cool or something especially when you dont know what it means

I hope that wasn't aimed at me, I was supporting you.

How elitists and Brawl have much to do with each other is beyond me. The best part is that these 'melee elitists' can kick most people's *** at Brawl, lol.

 

[choknater]

not really, i wouldn't call the melee players who are good at brawl "elitists" at all

just saying

 

[Dumah]

Sorry, misread your post, I read it as "I agree with the OP", since I was more/less skimming.


i make big stoopidz, meh bad

No worries.

I'm not sure that if Melee wasn't around, this game would deserve any more praise. I loved melee to death. That game alone justified the GC purchase for me. Brawl on the other hand, to me, does not. It's not that I don't have fun playing it, because when somebody of equal skill to me comes around, and doesn't just abuse chain grabbing or infinites, it's an amazing experience. The battles go back forth, back and forth, and to me, whether or not I lose that match doesn't matter. Nor does it if I win. I enjoy the competiton. So whether or not melee exists doesn't affect my opinion on the game. It's got it's fair share of problems that's for sure.

I think that there's a trend in gaming nowadays, where developers want to have the best of both worlds. "If you want to just pick up and play, you can do that, but if you want a hardcore experience you can have that as well". Melee was the exact defenition of that. With most games though, (I think Brawl fits into this), the hardcore audience just ends up getting the short stick.

 

[MarKO X]

Games in general are getting soft.

Seriously, wtf is a memory card? Built in Hard Drives for consoles? Please... remember passwords? lol

 

[Vampirekain]

I play Brawl because I go to a lot of anime conventions and people there favour Brawl.

Couldn't let this one drop!
Of cource it is none of my business but aren't video games supposed to be fun for you?
You know so you can do something you like with your free time?
Cause from what you just said it seems to me that you don't play it cause you like it but you play it cause ''they'' like it.

 

[Vyse]

Couldn't let this one drop!
Of cource it is none of my business but aren't video games supposed to be fun for you?
You know so you can do something you like with your free time?
Cause from what you just said it seems to me that you don't play it cause you like it but you play it cause ''they'' like it.

I know I should leave this for Yuna to answer, but the thing is, if an Anime convention has Brawl, and you're at said Anime convention, then you're going to play it for the joy of beating down scrubs in Brawl, which if you understand most of the concepts bought over from Melee, isn't too hard to do

Plus winning prizes is awesome.

That'd be my reasoning.

 

[Yuna]

Unfortunately, we live in an age of skepticism. The elitists of any given topic are too arrogant to say that anything contemporary is "good". This definitely includes smash, American politics of late, and the War in Iraq. The Elitists are pompous, and everyone else is skeptic because the media/elitists/experts (in Iraq's case the media) tell them to be. It irks me that no one openly hope toward the future. We aren't exited about our technology (they just pollute the environment), we aren't exited about our government (it sucks right?), and we aren't exited about our GAMES!

Or we're realists who call things what they are.

But if you play surely you must like something about it's blatant greatnesses.... like tripping......... from certain attacks. lol

Why can't I play a game but dislike many aspects of it?

 

[Yuna]

Couldn't let this one drop!
Of cource it is none of my business but aren't video games supposed to be fun for you?
You know so you can do something you like with your free time?
Cause from what you just said it seems to me that you don't play it cause you like it but you play it cause ''they'' like it.

I can have fun with the game and still dislike it on many levels. It's a fun Casual game. Competitively, it's trash.

 

[Vampirekain]

I can have fun with the game and still dislike it on many levels. It's a fun Casual game. Competitively, it's trash.

Oh ok then.You just gave me the impression that you only like uber competitive games!

Apparently I was wrong.

 

[LordoftheMorning]

Elitists of course are the people who are best at the game, it's not as if i don't know WHY they are elite. And an the ego of an individual can change quite a lot if they are well known. They said brawl sucks and we say "okay, i guess you know best." I didn't really think anyone would agree with my statement. In any case, I'm out. This thread is depressing me. This is going to turn into a flame-fest.

 

[GofG]

LordoftheMorning, why do you assume that we blindly follow the elitists of the Smash community?

Most of us do not like Brawl by our own free will.

 

[MuBa]

Because it says Elitist Jerk underneath your name?

;x

 

[Ryan-K]

Elitists of course are the people who are best at the game, it's not as if i don't know WHY they are elite. And an the ego of an individual can change quite a lot if they are well known. They said brawl sucks and we say "okay, i guess you know best." I didn't really think anyone would agree with my statement. In any case, I'm out. This thread is depressing me. This is going to turn into a flame-fest.

no

elitist means you basically are egotistical.

it has nothing to do with being "elite" or anything, stop throwing words around when you dont know what the **** they mean

people dont like brawl because of their own free will

look at m2k's thread on the marth boards when he said brawl sucks, i was trying to prove him wrong but after playing it it just gets SO BORING AND STUPID

stop pretending everyone is a ****ing sheep just because you aren't smart enough to realize GEE PEOPLE DON'T LIKE THIS GAME

 

[Melomaniacal]

I can have fun with the game and still dislike it on many levels. It's a fun Casual game. Competitively, it's trash.

I have to strongly disagree. Brawl is not trash as a competitive game, it's just not as competitive as Melee. There's a difference.

 

[Rigor Mortis]

If the question is "Is the Brawl Scene overly pessimistic", the answer is a resounding "yes". The thing that really gets me is that all of the pessimism seems generally unwarranted. Let's take a look at our most common complaints:

1) Brawl is not as technical as Melee, due to the removal of Wavedashing and L-canceling (amongst other things). Rebuttal: There are numerous character-specific ATs for most of the characters with a varying range of difficulty and usefulness. Depending on who you play, you could be doing more technical things than in Melee. Example: Lucas's Zap Jumping and Magnet pull are fairly vital to his recovery, B-sticking is an almost necessary part of his meta.



3) Brawl is "too campy" and has far too many projectiles. Rebuttal: I'm sure it has something to do with the people I play with, but I haven't found this to be the case. In any case, even the best of projectile spamming can be countered by the excellent defensive options in this game. Also, Melee Falco SHL much?



5) Brawl is too defensive. Sort of a corrolary to my third point. And again, I haven't seen this overly much with my playgroup. Rebuttal: I think that this really has more to do with the mindset of the players than how Brawl works. Yes, shielding is less punishable and easier to grab with than in Melee. But an aggressive, grab-heavy game can counteract this, and HARD. It's just a matter of adjusting your playstyle to fit the situation. I find the easier defensiveness of Brawl makes it easier for playskill to show through. The better player isn't the one who can pull of their cookiecutter 0-death combo first, but rather, the player who best follows the advice of the pros: "don't get hit".

Few comments that are totally ****ing wrong.
Melee dosnt have any cookie cutter 0 to deaths. Most combs can be DI from and there are barely and 0 to deaths. Also Your kidding me when your saing falco players spam lazers.
Tell that to pc chris who will control your every movment with his lazer to set you up in a combo that you think is 0 to death, but it isnt you can DI
But the rest of your comments I dont have a problem

 

[ElWray]

OMG you guys are so funny. At the beginning when Brawl just came out there was no where near as much

Brawl bashing as there is now. Over time it just became the cool thing to do because the "pros" were

doing it. Why cant you guys just except that people do like Brawl. Do you miss melee so much that you

have come into the brawl threads and try destroy any possibilities of a Brawl community. Every week or so

there is a new thread about how much brawl sucks just being said in a different way. If brawl sucks so bad

then leave go and try to rebuild melee. You guys dont leave because you know that this is the future.

Your just mad because melee was your game that you dominated at. Then this new game comes out and

you find that those years of mastering melee have gone to ****. You have too start over and thats why

you guys are pessimistic about brawl.

 

[Ryan-K]

people hate brawl because of the totally ****ing ignorant community as elwray so clearly demonstrated

if years of melee is going to waste then explain how everyone who is winning brawl tournaments was amazing at melee such as dsf, azen, m2k etc

get ***** brawl noob

 

[NJzFinest]

superryan wins

 

[choknater]

edit: nvmmmm