Pikachu discussion

[MrMarbles]

i can get it so that the hitbox starts to come out in the back, but not make its way all the way around before i hit the ground. also i just ran into another problem while in practice mode. i tend to use the r button for aerials and i just noticed that it seems to be impossible to z cancel aerials if you use the r button right before u hit the ground and then try to z cancel. i know my timing is correct, and it works fine if i use the a button, but it seems to be impossible to cancel if you use the r button and attack RIGHT before hitting the ground. can anyone else confirm this?

 

[Sangoku]

It's wrong.

 

[jimmyjoe]

I wish I had mini sangoku that lived in my pocket. That way if I ever had random smash curiosities he could answer them or figure it out frame for frame for me..

 

[Sangoku]

Lol I am probably the one who's wrong though. I've thought a bit more about it and it would be plausible that you have less frames to z-cancel with r. Imagine the case where you input a so late that you'd need to press z the next frame to cancel it, otherwise it's too late. Then a frame perfect z-cancel is possible. However, if, instead of attacking with a, you attacked with r, then inputting z on the next frame would result in a holding (since r is a+z) and therefore not registered as a z cancel.

And I just tested it. That's the correct answer rofl. Really nitpicky though, not sure that was what caused MrMarbles difficulties.

 

[jimmyjoe]

^
See!
This is what I'm talking bout

 

[MrMarbles]

i doubt i was frame perfect like that sangoku but actually i think u helped me figure out why that is happening to me. i think im still holding down r when i press z so it doesnt register. whereas if i am still holding down a then press z the z-cancel will still register

 

[mixa]

Dude, no way running sh double Uair is easy. I've tried on hitbox mode and I can barely make the second Uair's hitbox show up.

I think it's kinda the same situation with Mario's sh fair -> uair, while standing is easy and running is almost impossible, so if you want to do it while running, just let go of the stick just before the short hop and use your horizontal movement to keep moving forward.

 

[Battlecow]

sh 2uair is ****ing hard standing still

running it's goddam ridic

I mean I have slow fingers but even so

**** is difficult

 

[B Link]

Your hori must be messing you up. I can perform sh2uair 95 percent of the time easily, and running double sh uair like 70 percent.

It's only hard mid combo, like Alancitu did in one of his pika combos. But if you're having trouble doing it in training mode all I can say is LoL

 

[MrMarbles]

im glad im not the only one who has trouble with it

 

[mixa]

running double sh uair like 70 percent.

It's only hard mid combo, like Alancitu did in one of his pika combos

lol I don't believe that number. Is this the combo you're talking about? www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RmYBfuwVgg&t=3m20s
or this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V62DIMRMf28&list=UUaJAc5WfDQJNCNe3Taj07Pw&index=19&t=35s

I think on both (definitely on the 2nd one) he's not doing running sh.
I can copy both combos, or at least the relevant part of them.

and here he did exactly as I described in my previous post: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V62DIMRMf28&list=UUaJAc5WfDQJNCNe3Taj07Pw&index=19&t=59s
which is not a running sh d uair because that **** is hard and this works much better.

note: the best I could do on speed 1/4 was to make the 2nd tail get half way.

 

[B Link]

No LOL, why are you assuming I don't know what a running sh2uair is? It's neither of those vids.

I found the combo, but damn he doesn't land on the platform after doing it (he goes off the stage on the second uair). I haven't tried performing it in a while so I couldn't remember, oh well. Regardless, I'm sure he can perform it quite easily.

I also don't know why you're so skeptical about my ability to perform something this easy. Either your settings on the emulator are messed up, or if you're doing it on console your controller is messed up.

I'll upload a video sometime (console) to prove this.

EDIT: VIDEO (Warning: Turn down volume at 1:40ish b/c my phone made a loud low battery beeping noise -_-)

 

[MrMarbles]

thanks for posting B link. seems like 70% was an exageration but ya u got it

 

[B Link]

Maybe 60% lol

I also used R to do the uairs in that video, maybe that would help? I seriously want to know why other people can't do this haha

 

[mixa]

lol thanks for posting a video.

Here's why I was skeptical. My Pika and yours at the apex of our jumps:

Your 'running' sh is higher, that's why you can do it. I don't think it's my input problem or lack of tech skill because every time in that video that you did a true running sh, you either messed up the second Uair or you started a late Fair.

So, because of that I think your successful double uairs aren't while running because when running your max height is lower. However, you're very fluid with it.

 

[MrMarbles]

they look like legit running short hops to me

 

[Sangoku]

It's a 3 frame window and the hitbox of the second uair is only behind (no time to go in front).

And if you don't run it's 9 frames (3 + 5 from the vertical jump + 1 since you can input the first uair instead of the direction of the run). I can explain in more details if someone doesn't understand.

 

[mixa]

Thanks, Sangoku!

they look like legit running short hops to me

Yes, they look legit because he's very fluid with it (I'm all sloppy). But they're not running, as when running the "hitbox of the second uair is only behind (no time to go in front)."

 

[B Link]

I'm definitely running. I dunno what you're talking about, mixa. I didn't exaggerate the running for a long time in the vid, but I can still run across the entire middle platform and perform it >_>

I'm more convinced by your statement that my short hops are higher than yours. I do know that there are 42% and 46% hops so maybe I'm doing the 46% one. I dunno why my short hops aren't registering as the 42% one though.

Your screenshot comparison is not conclusive, however, because pikachu looks higher/lower as he's rotating, and they're not facing the same way in your picture.

I can show you another video of me using the exact same jump height (pikachu's face is in the platform) and I still landed the sh2uair.

I only see two possibilities:

1. I'm stopping for a bit pre-short hop (although, it didn't seem like that when I played my video "frame by frame" on my DVD player)

2. I'm not forcing my momentum forward (left or right) the entire time, so I was still able to get the second uair out in time. This still would count as a "running sh2uair" though.

I'm also not convinced by Sangoku's post until he explains the difference between mine and your two's performing it.

 

[Sangoku]

Yeah it depends what we mean by "running". Does it imply the low short hop or not. The lower short hop is performed by inputting a direction during the transition on the ground and in the air (between the 3th and 4th frame in the case of Pika's jump). Since if you run and short hop while keeping the running direction it will create the lower short hop, people tend to call it the "running short hop", which is inaccurate. However, in Pika's uair, you need to stop inputting the direction to perform the uair and depending on when you let go, you're not holding it on that 3rd frame of jump or you are and therefore, you are doing the lower short hop or not. My answer was about the lower short hop, not about running.

 

[mixa]

I have no idea why that shouldn't be called running sh
but lol nomenclature w/e

 

[B Link]

It's explained in his post (unless I'm misunderstanding something):

Both are running short hops. However, supposedly both of yours refers to pressing the directional input during the transition phase, causing a lower short hop. This is a "lower" short hop than mine. Mine is still a short hop. However, mine doesn't press the input between the 3rd and 4th frame. But, again, both are running short hops. After all, in both, you are 1) running 2) executing a short hop.

Why would we call it a "running short hop" if it's just a lower short hop? "Lower short hop" seems more appropriate to me. The running isn't causing it to be lower, it's the input between the 3rd and 4th frame of the transition from ground to air.

Anyway, I'm still not convinced that it's actually lower (I think it's a momentum thing). But for now I'll trust Sangoku's TASing of it until I TAS it myself.

 

[mixa]

"Momentum" is one of those words, man...
This is getting out of hand.

But it's all good baby baby.

 

[Sangoku]

B Link: you got it perfectly. And for your last paragraph, I know it's lower because you land 5 frames earlier. So less time in the air implies less time to perform an aerial.

 

[Yobolight]

Anyone got any tips for fighting Falcon?

 

[Sangoku]

Grab. Gimp. Same as against everyone.

What part causes you problem? Approaches? Combos? Edgeguards?

 

[clubbadubba]

Actually I would avoid a straight up grab war vs falcon. The falcon player has the advatange due to his speed.

Use lots of retreating uairs/bairs. If you land after an empty bair and anticipate him coming in for a quick grab you can throw out an immediate utilt to catch him. Some pikachu players are pretty good at using dtilt to ward off falcon when he comes in for the grab, though personally I've never been great at that. Once you land a hit you want it to be death though. If nothing is guaranteed on stage just throw them off the stage and go for the gimp.

 

[MrMarbles]

Anyone got any tips for fighting Falcon?

like clubba said u might want to avoid a grab battle because a falcon with good spacing will be able to out maneuver you with falcon. i like to use bair ->utilt -> grab with you are facing away or fair/uair ->grab when facing towards and from there its just anticipating how the player will try to recover and attempt to gimp

 

[clubbadubba]

Just a caution: be careful with using fairs. If you land the fair high, its one of the easiest moves in the game to DI out of. And then once they DI out they often recover before your fair is finished, so they get a free combo. If you have to use fair (not sure if HAVE TO is ever the case), try to land after only a few hits of it so that they don't get as much of a chance to DI out.

 

[Yobolight]

Thanks Clubba! I was trying to grab -> gimp and I kept finding myself landing less grabs than the Falcon, which essentially meant that I losing.

I am going to work on a more aerial based game against the character.

 

[clubbadubba]

Oh 1 more thing. I said after empty bair you can use an utilt, but if you miss that or hit at low percent you're ****ed. Instant shair is prolly better, though I'm not sure if its slower than utilt in which case they are situational.

 

[XKCP]

I tend to do an empty bair into something more like a sh dair at low percents against a Falcon who won't stand still. Hopefully, they either get hit or shield it and you can go behind them for the grab.

 

[Maliki]

After bair you can probably do a uair.

 

[Yobolight]

When edge guarding against Kirby and the Kirby has basically all its jumps, but is at stage level and trying to sweet spot the ledge and is threatening fair how should Pikachu be edgeguarding?

ftilt? dtilt? uair? reverse uair? bair? utilt? something else?

 

[MrMarbles]

When edge guarding against Kirby and the Kirby has basically all its jumps, but is at stage level and trying to sweet spot the ledge and is threatening fair how should Pikachu be edgeguarding?

ftilt? dtilt? uair? reverse uair? bair? utilt? something else?

a lot of kirbys will try to use their jumps to bait you into jumping out to gimp so they can pull back and nair/dair/fair. This can make it pretty hard to edgegaurd. The best thing u can do is be unpredictable. Since you know they will likely bait you, you can jump out acting like u will try to gimp but then pull back and land back on the stage. This will cause them to expend more jumps to avoid and and limit their recovery options allowing you to fsmash/dtilt/ftilt from the stage. Once they catch on to this strategy switch it up and go for a quick uair as they recover. If they are at stage level you can s-hop over them and dair since they are pretty vulnerable from above

 

[Pfrog]

TL;DR I want to win in a scrub Pika v scrub Pika match. How can I best prepare in one month?

I just picked up SSB after a long hiatus, and I have found my skills lacking (lv 2-3ish). I've been reading these boards for some help on beating my friend (lvl 3.2 scrub) who mains Pika, and I've found among other things that Pika is top tier when played by pros with no matchups that should beat him. Is this true for low level play as well?

Either way, I've decided the best way to beat him may be to use Pika myself. In training, I have found two problems:
1) U-tilt and sh-U-air are impossible to perform unless I am already holding up before I start.
2) Running U-tilt is impossible.
True or not?

My fighting style right now is usually trying to attack air to air until I get an opening to U-tilt a few times followed by U-smash then LIghtning spike if they're high or U-air if not (almost always miss the spike though). Once the enemy is pretty high % I look for an opening to throw or B-air off the stage and then when he comes back with Up-B grab him and throw again of F-smash depending on where he lands.

Since I only have 1 hour a day for the next month to prepare, I'm trying to prioritize skill learning. So far I think I need to spend 15 minutes a day on training mode working on one of these per week in order: sh-air, 2-3 hit combos, dash dancing, then z-canceling/teching. Then I'll train 45 minutes vs lv 9 CPU Pika (I wish I had friends or Windows) trying to incorporate these skills into my game while working on spacing and timing. Is this a good plan to beat my scrub friend on his Pika or am I missing something?

One thing I've noticed is that everyone seems to really like U-air but I am not sure what its main purpose should be. Should I be using it to knock them straight up or just damage them or knock them back or to lead into combos? It usually only works out that it hurts them and they don't go where I want them to, maybe I just need to work on where I hit them more.

Any suggestions are appreciated! Maybe tomorrow I can post a short video of me vs CPU if that will help.

 

[MrMarbles]

sh-uair isnt really that useful in low level play. if your friend likes to grab alot sh-dair would probably be more useful. most pika players will use uair a lot because it is pika's highest priority move (meaning that it has longer range and will overtake enemy attacks), and because its short knockback allows you to chain consecutive uairs in a combo. i suppose if your only goal is to beat your friend then learning complex combos isn't a good idea because they take awhile to learn and might hinder you if you try to use them in battle and mess up. instead learn to pivit grab and pivot fsmash. Those will be very effective if your friend likes to approach with aerials. If your friend likes to roll alot then practice anticipating his rolls and punishing

 

[clubbadubba]

Pika is not necessarily as good at low levels as at high levels. I recommend you play falcon instead since his combos are easier to learn and honestly if you can combo your scrub opponent you will win. Pika's combos are a lot more situational and he's more really good because of his awesome hitboxes on uair/bair and his amazing recovery/edgeguarding ability, but those things take serious time (and experience vs other players not just cpus) to get good at. Falcon however is the perfect training mode practice character since you can just practice combos off of his grab/usmash that will happen all the time in real games.

 

[mixa]

I decided to drink coffee at 10 pm, and eventually found myself not sleeping but frolicking in the world of frame advance w/ hitbox mode.

And found out that this [normal get-up from ledge → Up-B] if frame perfect, is invulnerable. Of course, the Up-B is still vulnerable like it's always been.

[collapse=hitbox gif]

Sheik vibes~[/collapse]


Similarly, and now applying to all characters, if you normal get-up and buffer shield, you'll go from intangible (blue) to directly having the shield up. This works even if the character is over 100%.

late edit: most characters follow that description, but not all.​

 

[MrMarbles]

I decided to drink coffee at 10 pm, and eventually found myself not sleeping but frolicking in the world of frame advance w/ hitbox mode.

And found out that this [normal get-up from ledge → Up-B] if frame perfect, is invulnerable. Of course, the Up-B is still vulnerable like it's always been.

[collapse=hitbox gif]

Sheik vibes~[/collapse]


Similarly, and now applying to all characters, if you normal get-up and buffer shield, you'll go from intangible (blue) to directly having the shield up. This works even if the character is over 100%.

really cool and probably even viable