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Pit Matchup Discussion - Mr. Game & Watch

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Coffee™

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Pit players complain about this matchup so much "when they shouldnt". So feel free to discuss it here.

Mr. Game & Watch



Pros and Cons

Pros:
has a good edgeguard game due to good range forward air, back air, down air that spikes, down tilt and the frying pan for projectiles
has a great sheild pressure game due to the long range, multi hitting back air that hits grabbers.
has a great recovery that goes very high, can float horozontally after the peak, and can be cancelled by attacking after the peak
has a good grab game because his downthrow allow you to tech chase
is pretty strong kill wise, can use fsmash, downsmash, upsmash, fair along with the dair, chair, bair, and up air occasionally
gaw can bucket energy based projectiles, which ruins some opponents chance to be campy
has a huge amount of priority and disjointed hitboxes with most of his moves

Cons:
gaw is very light, which means he'll die earlier than most opponents
gaw lacks a tight projectile game that allows you to pressure your opponent
has a lot of landing lag with aerials and cooldown on a lot of smashes and ground moves
has poor grab range
has somewhat telegraphed kill methods, making it sometimes hard to land a kill.
Discuss!!!
 

Lezard

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i think that this character shouldn't be in the game hate fighting especially with Pit however, what strategy
work well on him?
 

IrisKong

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From what I have seen with the very (very) short time I have played pit, GW out prioritizes pretty much everything thing, especially his bair. If you can get him off the platform it probably wouldnt be to difficult....its getting him off thats the problem.
 

FzeroX

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fair trades with turtle, do it that should be enough for ppl to realize this is not that bad of a match up

also if you get hit by turtle DI up and bair him after

Up b is the biggest problem pit has. I am still not that sure on how to deal with it yet, if anyone has suggestions let me know
 

cutter

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Personally I don't see G&W's Bair being the main problem for Pit; it is more or a less a cumulative amount of advantages G&W has over Pit that make it very good for G&W.
 

teh_pwns_the

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Personally I don't see G&W's Bair being the main problem for Pit; it is more or a less a cumulative amount of advantages G&W has over Pit that make it very good for G&W.
yay for broad umbrella statements that dont really help out the discussion of how to do well against him or what to watch out for

uhm well in my experience, arrow loops tned to make the GnW want to bucket which you can pull away and since its possible to advance while looping and bucket has some lag, then you can sometimes get some free hits on him

oh and all of his smashes **** for some odd reason, but especially his Usma so just dont ever approach from directly abovedo diagonals so you can poke him with a Fair or a Bair

his key has little to no lag on the end and has really high priority so the best you can do is either arrow or dodge and then hope he screws up so you can hit him when hes done haha
 

yummynbeefy

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gw is a pain in the butt no doubt i have a few things that might help
fill up his bucket yea it sounds crazy but once you fill up his bucket you can basicly spam all you want also he cant bucket break so he will die even sooner
something i also like to do if you dont wanna fill up his bucket is you can hit him off stage and charge an arrow chances are he will pull out the bucket thats when you curve the arrow away from him and your basicly set because of the buckets lag he may die
 

KY_Des

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gw is a pain in the butt no doubt i have a few things that might help
fill up his bucket yea it sounds crazy but once you fill up his bucket you can basicly spam all you want also he cant bucket break so he will die even sooner
That's a good strategy for some characters, but not Pit. A bucket filled by Pit's arrows will kill you at like 50 (correct if I'm wrong, thats a random-*** number). Plus a full bucket deals quite a bit of damage and, in order for this strategy to work, you'd have to refill his bucket everytime he used it.

This strategy works for Fox, but not for Pit.

Go Snake =]
 

Luso

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I forget, can you use the Mirror Shield or Angel Ring to deflect the waste from the bucket or is it some attack that is undeflectable?
 

teh_pwns_the

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I forget, can you use the Mirror Shield or Angel Ring to deflect the waste from the bucket or is it some attack that is undeflectable?
doesnt reflect

and yummy n beefy its better to just do the thing where you pull arrows away at the last second because a full bucket will kill you at i think like 43 haha, its ridiculous
 

drag0nfeather

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VERY IMPORTANT Size 4 red important.

When I played online (just to tell you the situation), I played G&W for kicks in one round and was trying to spam Dair. It was on Pictochat and there were the pointer-fence walls-that-hurt-when-you-touch-the-points up. There was a Pit, the character, below me and about 3-5 times in a row, consecutively, he hit me with the disjointed hitbox of the Uair and stuffed my Dair approach.

I might have simply been pretty unlucky, so further testing is important for people who really want to know their way around G&Ws.
 

Coffee™

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VERY IMPORTANT Size 4 red important.

When I played online (just to tell you the situation), I played G&W for kicks in one round and was trying to spam Dair. It was on Pictochat and there were the pointer-fence walls-that-hurt-when-you-touch-the-points up. There was a Pit, the character, below me and about 3-5 times in a row, consecutively, he hit me with the disjointed hitbox of the Uair and stuffed my Dair approach.

I might have simply been pretty unlucky, so further testing is important for people who really want to know their way around G&Ws.
Pit's Uair beats G&W's Key if he hits with the disjointed part of it. If G&W hits him like in the middle of Pit's Uair where his hurtbox is then it will hit Pit without trading with Uair.
 

yummynbeefy

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yea tru about the bucket thing

why did they have to make the bucket broken in every way sept for the lag

also that strategy that i suggested earlier works amazing with bowser the bucket doesnt kil till like 120 for him
 

Phaigne

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Pit's Uair beats G&W's Key if he hits with the disjointed part of it. If G&W hits him like in the middle of Pit's Uair where his hurtbox is then it will hit Pit without trading with Uair.
Yeah, this is an effective strategy for Pit vs Game and Watch. I thought it was common knowledge at this point. It can be hard to outmaneuver GaW sometimes, though
 

Dilly04

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doesnt reflect
I'm pretty sure MS will reflect, but it only turns G&W in the other direction...someone test it?

And the whole fill their arrows up with buckets thing? Yeah totally against it. Just surprise them with arrow attacks every once in awhile.
And what Ky said, bucket kills Pit at pretty low percentages.
G&W's down throw to bucket = deadly :(

Stage picks are important in my opinion. BAN CORNERIA.
 

Afropony

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This is some stuff that we had from the old old thread, looks like it was posted by Undr.

thought it might be helpful :)




Quote:
Originally Posted by UndrDog (some things i've added) View Post
Game & Watch is buckets of fun. ^_^

Anyway keep in mind that G&W our prioritizes Pit in the air to some extent. Try to stay on the ground as much as you can during this fight. If he comes at you with an aerial try to Powershield it high on your shield and nab him before he lands. However this is really only applicable against his Nair, Fair, and I suppose Uair. If he comes at you with his Bair or Dair you'll have to think it through. If he's attacking with the Bair stay in your shield and get ready to attack with your AAA once the attack ends. He's fast out of this move and trust me when I say G&W players practice the applications of the Bair. Remember, it's a Multi-Hit attack. As for his Dair keep an eye on where he starts it. If he started the Dair relatively low to the ground then Powershield to remove shield-stun, but keep it on until he hits the ground. Then procede to whoop up on him. If he does it high up, your best bet is to short hop up air or roll out of the way and pelt him with an arrow as he lands. If the Dair is done from high in the air, assume he's aiming to Auto-Cancel it into an attack.

When on the ground look out for G&W's AAA. You will get caught in it on occasion. Powershielding doesn't help much and G&W's quick frame jumping animations can make it hard to know when he's coming out of it. From the AAA G&W is capable of comboing out of it.

The D-Tilt is still as popular as it was in Melee. Just keep any eye out for it and try to SHFair if you see it coming.

The F-Smash is easily Powershielded and you won't get hit out of the multiple hitboxes it has if you shield the first one. Powershield and pwn.

The D-Smash is popular too. But again, Powershield and Spacing works well. Be careful as Wingdashing will still get you hit by this move if you don't retreat with it fast enough.

Spam back if he spams you with his projectiles. Your's are better.

Don't worry about the bucket. Just make sure you keep an eye out for it. You can Mirror Shield it if you're far enough back to see it coming, of if you're just very intuitive. After he catches three of your arrows it's not like he can catch anymore, and if you're lucky he might instinctively toss his Oil Slick trying to catch more arrows. Only if he catches more then you hit him with should you give up on the arrow attacks. Arrow Looping REALLY messes up his bucket. He either won't be able to catch them or he'll be even more vulnerable to your Arrow Chase if he tries. From a far shoot your arrows then when the bucket comes out angle them up as to avoid him (start early as the bucket's hit box is a big bubble around him) then because the bucket is slow to put away charge him with an ART.

The Hammer IS a threat. Keep an eye out for it.

If you want you can try to nerf his recovery by chasing him off the edge. But with his aerial priority I'd suggest hanging back and waiting for him to recovery. If you can gimp him at the edge that's great. But in the end he's very light and if you've already knocked him that far off the edge, it shouldn't be too much longer until yo kill him in a similar fashion.

ARTing is very good against G&W because it ensures your weak-side is facing away from him if he escapes prematurely. A well timed F-Smash can hit through your AR but it's rare.

If his Bucket is full as he's recovering have some fun with Target Practice. He can't catch anymore and it's far to dangerous to go to him.

When he's recovering from below you can Bair him out of his Up-B and into most stages. It'll kill'm good.
 

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I more or less agree with Kown. Its no more than 55:45 in G&W's favor, but I wouldn't be opposed to listing it as neutral.
 

teh_pwns_the

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uhm sorry guys but i cant help feeling like we are becoming the marth boards, this is NOT a neutral matchup for pitthis is one of pits few bad ones to say its neutral would be blindingly ignorant
60-40
 

yummynbeefy

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ok now for real

tbh this matchup is feeling easier and easier after playing some norcal gw's id say this matchup isnt more than 60-40 gw favor

and yea im being 100% honest this time


50-50 i disagree
 

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uhm sorry guys but i cant help feeling like we are becoming the marth boards, this is NOT a neutral matchup for pitthis is one of pits few bad ones to say its neutral would be blindingly ignorant
60-40
It could either mean that we're blindingly ignorant or we simply know the matchup better than you do. Against every G&W I've played its never really felt like an uphill battle as it is with MK once I learned not to shoot so much arrows. Almost every G&W I've played and then spoken to about it agreed that they didn't really think the matchup was that much in favor of G&W at all.

Kown the only other person here that agrees that the matchup is neutral played UTD Zac who is considered one of the better G&Ws in the community and granted it was only friendlies beat him most of the time and he also agreed that the matchup is overrated in G&W's favor.

I don't know what the Marth boards have to do with anything as most of their matchups seem correct at least in my opinion and to state that we're becoming them seems to be more of a compliment to the board than an insult. The Marh boards are at least productive, the Pit boards, not so much. Once you get past the "man I cant shoot my arrows how I want to" or the "G&W has more range and his Bair is too hard to deal with" its really not as hard as you might think.
 

teh_pwns_the

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It could either mean that we're blindingly ignorant or we simply know the matchup better than you do. Against every G&W I've played its never really felt like an uphill battle as it is with MK once I learned not to shoot so much arrows. Almost every G&W I've played and then spoken to about it agreed that they didn't really think the matchup was that much in favor of G&W at all.

Kown the only other person here that agrees that the matchup is neutral played UTD Zac who is considered one of the better G&Ws in the community and granted it was only friendlies beat him most of the time and he also agreed that the matchup is overrated in G&W's favor.

I don't know what the Marth boards have to do with anything as most of their matchups seem correct at least in my opinion and to state that we're becoming them seems to be more of a compliment to the board than an insult. The Marh boards are at least productive, the Pit boards, not so much. Once you get past the "man I cant shoot my arrows how I want to" or the "G&W has more range and his Bair is too hard to deal with" its really not as hard as you might think.
lol the marth boards are famous for always tilting matchups to be extremely in their favor

ok wait wait wait lets look at this from a technical viewpoint
GnW's aerial game outprioritizes pits completely
GnW cant be gimped by pit and pretty much gets a free recovery every time
GnW is pretty much immune to glides since his Fsmash and Usmash are ridiculously good
GnW's smashes outrange and outprioiritize ours, not to mention his Usmash has ridiculous knockback
GnW hampers the arrow game (yes i know arrows are still useful i find them aactually very useful to loop cause it can cause the GnW to pul out a bucket and then get punished during lag
Ledgecamping doesnt work against him either because arc projectiles (like his bacon) prevent you from getting off arrows and he can jsut sit there camping all day until you decide to come up and take a few random meat products to the face

Our Uair does trump his Dair at the right angle, so thank god theres something we have over him
some of our moves tend to be a little bit faster which is also nice




at least 55-45 in his favor if not more

oh and subtle differences between what i said and what you understood
i wasnt calling you guys blindingly ignorant, i was saying that in to say the matchup was even would be
 

Coffee™

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lol the marth boards are famous for always tilting matchups to be extremely in their favor
Most of their matchups are listed as 60:40 in their favor. I don't think thats too unbelievable.

GnW's aerial game outprioritizes pits completely
No...It doesn't

GnW cant be gimped by pit and pretty much gets a free recovery every time
This isn't that important, he's light, kill him the other way.

GnW is pretty much immune to glides since his Fsmash and Usmash are ridiculously good
Angle your glide attack higher and you can avoid both quite easily.

GnW's smashes outrange and outprioiritize ours, not to mention his Usmash has ridiculous knockback
They're also fairly slow and easily telegraphed.

GnW hampers the arrow game (yes i know arrows are still useful i find them aactually very useful to loop cause it can cause the GnW to pul out a bucket and then get punished during lag
Ugh...looping is not that useful in this matchup or in general.

Ledgecamping doesnt work against him either because arc projectiles (like his bacon) prevent you from getting off arrows and he can jsut sit there camping all day until you decide to come up and take a few random meat products to the face
His bacon doesn't deter ledgecamping at all. G&W has other ways of getting you off but he has to go offstage to do so, which means there will always be a slight risk involved for him.

at least 55-45 in his favor if not more
Maybe 55:45, but higher, not really.

oh and subtle differences between what i said and what you understood
i wasnt calling you guys blindingly ignorant, i was saying that in to say the matchup was even would be
Um...ok
 

teh_pwns_the

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Most of their matchups are listed as 60:40 in their favor. I don't think thats too unbelievable.

ok well its a known stereotype, whether you agree with it or not is a whole other debate

No...It doesn't

haha other then our Uair to their Dair, what doesnt get outprioritized?

This isn't that important, he's light, kill him the other way.

lol ever heard of bucket braking, he lives forever with that bull

Angle your glide attack higher and you can avoid both quite easily.

well then they end up cancelling it so either way it shuts down our glide

They're also fairly slow and easily telegraphed.

hmm slow they may be but esily telegraphed not so much
his glitchiness cna make it hard to tell when hes started the smash (on Dsmash)

Ugh...looping is not that useful in this matchup or in general.

haha thats your opinion but it has helped me out many tiems and the GnW i play says that it gives him troubles

His bacon doesn't deter ledgecamping at all. G&W has other ways of getting you off but he has to go offstage to do so, which means there will always be a slight risk involved for him.

haha how does a stream of bacon not affect you camping the ledge with your arrows and pop up aerials?
 

Coffee™

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haha other then our Uair to their Dair, what doesnt get outprioritized?
G&Ws Bair is the only aerial that outprioritizes Pit's aerials. Every other aerial you will at least trade hits with him.

lol ever heard of bucket braking, he lives forever with that bull
Ok...stop trying to KO G&W across stage lengths.

well then they end up cancelling it so either way it shuts down our glide

I'm not even going to bother commenting on this.


hmm slow they may be but esily telegraphed not so much
his glitchiness cna make it hard to tell when hes started the smash (on Dsmash)

What you are talking about is not telegraphing to begin with.


haha thats your opinion but it has helped me out many tiems and the GnW i play says that it gives him troubles
Um....ok

haha how does a stream of bacon not affect you camping the ledge with your arrows and pop up aerials?[

Learn to ledgecamp properly. Bacon is not a deterrent.

This is my last post on this btw, re-quoting things is very annoying.
 

teh_pwns_the

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G&Ws Bair is the only aerial that outprioritizes Pit's aerials. Every other aerial you will at least trade hits with him.

lol trading hits with a GnW isnt very good he lives longer and his Fair does more damage, so does his Nair and since you cant really get to him

Ok...stop trying to KO G&W across stage lengths.

sorry but most of the time in a match openings arent open long enough for you to decide which way to KO, sure you can affect it but you have to admit that GnW still lives significantly longer with bucket braking


I'm not even going to bother commenting on this.


i dont see why not and it seems kind of childish to just ignore it like that but whatever, to each his own


What you are talking about is not telegraphing to begin with.


yea my bad, doesnt change the fact that his Smashes are really good, and have ridiculous knockback, both Usmash and Dsmash are realllllly good kill moves that kill at low percents


Learn to ledgecamp properly. Bacon is not a deterrent.


lol maybe the GnW's you play dont do it right but it definitely makes ledge camping more difficult, it shuts down everything except for WoI regrab, maybe you jsut dont do much from the ledge

This is my last post on this btw, re-quoting things is very annoying.

pick your battles eh? haha
quoting isnt neccesary we have different colored text its pretty obvious who said what you are in "DeepSkyBlue" haha
 

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pick your battles eh? haha
quoting isnt neccesary we have different colored text its pretty obvious who said what you are in "DeepSkyBlue" haha
Its not a matter of me picking my battles. You obviously don't know what you're doing in the matchup or even what you're talking about in general so I'm simply not going to waste my time arguing with you.
 

teh_pwns_the

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Its not a matter of me picking my battles. You obviously don't know what you're doing in the matchup or even what you're talking about in general so I'm simply not going to waste my time arguing with you.
Haha *round of applause* yay for an ad hominem argument (which is a logical fallacy btw)

that being said can we just bring this down to a vote as to what the spread should be

mines for 55-45

there i compromised yay for haggling
 

DominusHaven

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G&W is a hard matchup, easily Pit's worst but if you know what you are doing it isn't too impossible, just don't get predictable, and just strike when a chance occurs.
G&W is going to do a lot of B-airs obviously, don't try to approach him most of the time when he is coming with it, either stay away and block it. usually if you can get above him while he is doing it you can come with a D-air and hit him, also at the very end of the B-air he can get hit by an F-air. Make sure to block all the hit's of a B-air of course and get away if he gets you while you are blocking.

Don't dodge too much against G&W considering he has so many multi-hit attacks, and never try to stay in the air too long against him. N-air gets countered by D-air, and they both hit each other but D-air does more damage due to N-air being a multi-hit so go for that.

Jabs and grabs are fast and useful against G&W and are usually fast enough to keep him at bay. Play this match up patiently, don't make mistakes, don't spam arrows a lot. You need good spacing, and try to predict his Aerials and meet him in the air with a Fair or two. Also don't be flashy, at all against G&W, not the guy you wanna be flashy against.

I would never go with spamming arrows against G&W unless you have the stock advantage, which is risky but works only if you can do it right, mostly preferred on a big stage like Final Destination. Spam arrows a lot once he has his bucket filled until he is forced to have to use the bucket to kill you, which will do a decent load of damage and if he can't even hit you with the bucket attack, you can either try to continue doing damage the normal way or spam him with arrows again. I would only recommend the strategy if you have a stock advantage though.

Try not to fall for D-throw to U-Smash of course, learn to tech when he does his D-Throw so he can't achieve that possibility.

That is some of the information I can offer, it is a hard match but not impossible.
 

Arzengel

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Yeah i hate the 2D-man.
As for the bucket, I'm wondering if you ju,p, then shoot an arrow and make it slant, so that it hits him in the head, will it hit?
 

-Spike-

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So i just found this and thought I would put my input in. I really dislike this matchup. I have an easier time fighting mk then g&w. The match is definitely in g&w's favor. I'd say 65:35 or at least 60:40 in GW favor. Yes I have beaten gw's, but as of lately I have played some serious g&w mainers (xyz and some more) and had extreme difficulty beating them. We have absolutely nothing to fight against gw dair. And if you play a really good g&w thats all theyll do until ur in the air. Once your in the air g&w then has the advantage and will nair u continously. I feel there is nothing you can do to stop bair. If you simply just shield it and get a quick jab or grab in here in their, this wont win the match for you. You cant make this an aerial fight (which is where pit normally excels) and if you stay on the ground there isn't much you can do because the constant dair followed by smashes.

Yes I know everyone says well g&w is light, but pit is too. Most g&w wont die from pit till around 110% unless you somehow manage to land a bair (which is nearly impossible to land on g&w because about 75% of his aerial prioritize ours) and GW will kill pit at about 90% with his up smash and forward smash. Not to mention his hammers are **** if he lands them right.

Arrows= No! Dont bother unless your semi close range so he wont pull bucket out, and if he does then punish because he lags.

Gimp= No, unless you can mirror shield his return.

So what im saying is the matchup can be won. But its extremely difficult. You must be very aware/cautious. If you slip up at all during anytime of the match you will lose.

GW takes away are two of pits best areas, the air and the arrows. Making pit a bad choice for this matchup. Its because of this matchup I have started using snake to get revenge!
 

-Spike-

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Just thought I would point this out. Im just saying:
Quote:
Originally Posted by omegablackmage View Post
Pit: (65/35)

General Matchup:

* Pit is probably one of the best campers in the game, right up their with falco and snake. Arrows, two reflecting moves, multiple jumps, fairly long recovery, all these add up to a great camping character.
* Pit has good priority, but lacks range in a lot of areas. Most of his attacks are short to medium ranged, exceptions being maybe ftilt and the upsmash, and most don't have the priority to back it up, except maybe the fsmash or up air. (against gw at least)
* Pits major kill moves are his fsmash, bair, glide attack, and dsmash. The smashes are pretty fast, but the bair can be a bit slow at times and somewhat telegraphed (the glide attack should be telegraphed too lol). Watch out for the smashes out of shield.
* Pits edgeguarding against gw will be to spam arrows, if they think you won't bucket them. I would off the stage (you should be bucket braking anyway), since its hard to punish for them. Anything offstage for them other than that would be risky for them so you probably won't see it too often.
* To edgeguard pit, i would probably throw bacon out, and then throw fairs or up b's their way to force them to use more jumps. If you can get them in their up b, your in good shape, they will make a desperate move to the edge, try and predict this. When they glide above you, make use of your up air, and if they try to glide attack you, bair through it.
* Pits combos aren't all that amazing. He can only forward throw chain you once at 0, so that isn't too much trouble. Watch out for nairs that can quickly cancel from short hops into smashes. Also uptilt comes out surprisingly fast (3 frames!) so watch out for that.
* Pit has an average buffered roll, but an above average tech roll. So if your opponent knows how to tech consistently you might want to opt for upthrowing depending on how good your tech chase skills are. Nairs work well, he has an average sized body. Up air'ing is alright against pit, gliding can help him get out of this however, so you have to be persistent.


General Strategies:

* If you keep your range, you will do very well in this matchup. Bair, fair, and dtilt outrange just about everything pit can throw at you (save glide attack, i think you need bair for this), including his smashes iirc. Key will beat his up air and up air will beat his dair (puffing).
* When they start arrow spamming, start bucketing. Now this isn't always the best idea, if they are right next to you, they're gunna be able to land a smash if you bucket, so use discretion. They usually only spam when they are far away or your off the edge, so go ahead and bucket in most situations.
* Without arrows and range they loose a lot of footing in this matchup. Their recovery lacks, and their kill moves are quick, but not terribly strong. If you have a grasp on bucket braking, then you should find them getting very frustrated making any progress in the match.


Stages:

* Stay away from norfair if on, its only going to help their recovery. I would go for shallow ceilings in this case, their air ko's aren't amazing, so corneria if possible, otherwise, rc, delphino, halberd work too.
* Neutrals work just fine in your favor too, I imagine that yoshi's island would hurt them, given they can't go under the stage, and i would say that their camping under the platform would hurt you, but bucketing remedies that.
 
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