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Pit: What To Do

Yojimbo

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
309
Location
Western Kentucky
I'm ashamed to say I had a horrible time with a friend of mine, who plays Pit and just camps with arrows, dodge rolls and dsmashes and he beat me. I lost my head through it, got frustrated, and just started swinging. But the match was even for awhile. Even though I reflected every single arrow, he never approached and managed to time a few arrows between the lag of the reflector. My SHDL timing isn't perfect so I didn't cancel my lasers into the shine perfectly like I should have been able to.

Wish I had a video, but he wasn't expecting to beat me, he was as surprised as I was. So what's the deal? Is a camping Pit the be all end all in Falco's case? Should I play super aggressively?

Keep in mind I'm not the most advanced Falco, so if I suck losing to a camping Pit, I already know this. =P
 

J4pu

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 30, 2008
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Torrance/Irvine, CA, USA
All I can say is don't play aggressively if the Pit knows what they are doing, I actually just lost to a Pit in tournament yesterday.
Other than that, I am eager to hear people's advice since I don't understand what to do either
I tried camping lasers > instant reflector , the outcome is just that nobody takes damage
I tried forcing the grab for CG damage and I got punished 90% of the time
I tried Spacing my aerials and they just got perfect shielded and I got punished

my post from like 8 hours ago:
so guys, I'm not a complete scrub anymore, just got back from a decent sized tourney, 60+ people and tied for 17th. I'm not awesome yet but at least I'm progressing
only part that really disappointed me was that I lost to a Pit.
So, I have a question: When you are hanging on the edge and Pit uses UpB and follows the slope of FD towards the edge, what's the best way to punish?
I tried waiting til Pit was pretty close then Bair since your whole body is a hit box, but the Pit grabbed the edge and got invincibility the same time my Bair came out, maybe I should have done it sooner.
But what is the best option in this scenario?
Oh, and I also need tons of help with Kirby.
really though I have much more problems with kirby than pit
 

8AngeL8

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 4, 2008
Messages
1,298
Location
Dallas, TX
You can punish the pit coming from beneath by dropping into a fair into the stage, it will stage spike and gimp him.

The hardest thing to get used to against pit is that he can beat out your dair with his uair, so don't abuse it. Both of you go pretty much even in camping if you both do it right, so you will need to approach eventually. Nair and bair work nicely. If you're both grounded, you can reflector if they use side-b, then follow up with a gatling combo. Ftilt has good range on it and can space you enough to keep him from abusing those swords of his.

If you're getting your aerials punished, space the landing so you end up behind him instead of in front.
 

M@v

Subarashii!
Joined
Oct 13, 2007
Messages
10,678
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Pittsburgh, PA
REALLY BAD IDEA to try and force the chaingrab in this matchup; he can punish you badly for it.
 

8AngeL8

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 4, 2008
Messages
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Haha, I made the mistake of counter-picking jungle japes against a pit first time I played one in a tourney. That went horribly. Raised platforms make it a joke for him to camp you, and he can't be spiked into the water like most characters.
 

Rukh

Smash Rookie
Joined
Aug 11, 2008
Messages
24
Can't Pit get out of the CG on the second throw with a F-air? Not much of a chain.
 

BleachigoZX

Smash Master
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Pit's Dair is easy to punish with Falco so I always Throw Up. And I Phantasm ALOT since you can Mindgame him with it alot. Just never do a full phantasm it puts you in a awkward position.
Also Dtilt's into A Snakeslide Works if they DI away.
 

J4pu

Smash Champion
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Can't Pit get out of the CG on the second throw with a F-air? Not much of a chain.
no, the CG hurts pit pretty badly, it's just getting the grab in the first place that's a pain

what do you mean the CG > Dair spike into the water doesn't work? I got one kill off of it, if you mean they can technically jump out of the water if they have good timing every time then that goes for (almost) every character.

don't try to punish Pit's SH retreating Nairs, they autocancel and you get screwed.
 

Rukh

Smash Rookie
Joined
Aug 11, 2008
Messages
24
^ I must be off on my timing on CGing Pit then, some practice to do I guess.
 

8AngeL8

Smash Lord
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Messages
1,298
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It gets him into the water, and he'll die from the claptrap if you're lucky, but he has enough recovery to jump out unless you spiked him in at the far left side. This bonus doesn't offset the fact the high ceiling and the way it helps pits camping game, if you ask me.
 

Vlade

Social Outcast
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There have been many times where I verse pit and don't get one single grab in the entire set. I still strongly believe that Jungle Japes plays to our strengths, because pit can't exactly spike falco into the water. But yes, like everyone else has been saying - don't try and force grabs. Seriously. You will lose if you do. Now his arrows may piss you off but just reflect them before he gets his mirror out. I also find that after reflecting arrows an effective way to bait his mirror is to do a SHDL, escept don't shoot the second laser. This way you can advance forward and shut down pit's camping game. Another way to approach (if you lose the camping game) is to do full hops forward, but mix in some airdodges to dodge pit's curved arrows.

I find that mixing full hops, short hops and double jumps in an unpredictable manner certainly helps falco's game especially against pit - just make sure not to keep all of them empty, or to have all of them complemented with lasers/aerials. Also beware of pit's mirror, especially when you're recovering.

And yes on Jungle Japes I usually get an early kill with the CG to dair (if I get the grab that is) but believe me from then on the pit will always recover from the water since they should have learnt after that. But if you do get another grab, still use the cg to dair since a klap trap may come along.
 

J4pu

Smash Champion
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It gets him into the water, and he'll die from the claptrap if you're lucky, but he has enough recovery to jump out unless you spiked him in at the far left side. This bonus doesn't offset the fact the high ceiling and the way it helps pits camping game, if you ask me.
Oh, I only go for the grab if I'm gunna get the spike off on the left side, otherwise I will ignore it until he's in position. Yes the high ceiling on Japes is very problematic and we really need to figure out some Falco tricks on Japes for side kills.
How about if you are close enough when you get hit off the side, recover to the inside ledge of the side platforms then drop, DJ, wall jump Bair, if they are at a kill percent and you land that it should do the trick.
but it is very true that once you miss the gimp kill in the water you get screwed until you finally manage to get that kill.
Gotta learn mindgames for that Fsmash I guess.
Don't forget though (maybe doesnt qualify for pit since he doesnt have upward killing moves) that Falco is quite light and does profit somewhat from the high ceiling in some match-ups.
 

D1

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If Pit is just spamming arrows you can approach him and just powershield each arrow that comes your way till you close the distance between you and him. Powershielding projectiles repeatedly sometimes causes the opponent to realize that spamming projectiles isn't going to work on you forcing them to find other ways to combat you. Once you get close enough and he's right outside ftilt range...let the good times roll.
 

J4pu

Smash Champion
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more info please D1, I could use some tips on what to do once you get close to Pit, considering I thought once I get clsoe this fight will be over and then I ended up getting torn apart up close. So far all I know is do not force the grab.
 

superglucose

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 26, 2008
Messages
127
Should I play super aggressively?
You're bloody falco, only one character in this game can play as aggressively as you can.

My friend plays pit and is a much better player than I am. Here's the key: your tilts own. That ftilt comes out amazingly fast and has good range, and the utilt punishes sidedodging pretty well. Since my friend's pit spams sidedodge I'll let you know what to do against that.

If he tries to roll behind you into a downsmash, sidesmash in the direction he rolled to. I swear by all that is holy that the greatest mindgame Falco has is his sidesmash. It has an odd hitbox, takes a little longer than most people expect to come out, and has slightly more range than people seem to realize (at least, non falco mains). Plus at medium high percentages, when down throwing them is just out of range of a DLX, you can still dash up and stutter-step a fsmash. It requires a lot of careful timing (especially since I'm terrible at stutter stepping, so I mostly just stop dashing and fsmash) but once you get it down it keeps your godly down throw scary relevant for the whole game. then you just have a prediction game... will your opponent airdodge out of the downthrow to prevent a dlx, or will they keep flying and airdodge the fsmash?

Don't bother reflecting the arrows for the most part. Good pits (hell, even bad pits like myself) will not get hit by the reflection (they know to angle the arrow down just as it hits so a reflector sends it into the air), so you're just as well off dodging it. Better, actually, because the lag on spot dodges and rolls is lower than shining. Other ways to avoid lasers: go airborne and forward. Airdodging is great for avoiding arrows, and while Pit has a monster arial game, you do as well. Also shine still works as an offensive option in the air.

Illusion is a strong offensive option against all characters because it's pretty unexpected, and unless you see it coming it's hard to defend against. Even when you see it coming (recovery) there's still all kinds of tricks available to illusioning falcos, such as cancelling it or even specifically aiming it short or long, high or low.

Remember: you cannot DI through the angel ring. As soon as you hear "HI!" you should be DIing away from pit in the opposite direction pit just moved. I'm sure you knew that, but as Pit isn't exactly a common player it's not unheard of for even fairly experienced players to forget this little important rule.

Like I said before, my friend spams spotdodging into grabs. Fortunately Falco is a pro at punishing spot dodging. Your jab combo, your uptilt, your sffled dairs, your shnair, your shbair (sex kick ftw!)... even your fsmash gets the job done. The reason I am able to beat my friend's pit on occasion is because I know how to punish him. Hard. Falco has all the tools for punishing a Pit... a monster arial game (full hop off the ledge to illusion spike back on is such a thing of beauty when it's pulled off) and fast tilts/smashes (that dsmash of yours is fast, by the way). Plus a chaingrab.

don't try to punish Pit's SH retreating Nairs, they autocancel and you get screwed.
Sure you can punish SH retreating Nairs. Laser him. It's not much of a punish, but it means that his retreating move gives him 3% damage.

Quick question, does the front hitbox of our usmash go through the Nair of pit? Because a hyphen smash might do it.
 

wangston

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 23, 2006
Messages
1,660
Location
Provo Utah
I've always seem to be able to approach pit with a nair or dair and have it auto cancel into a single jab and then I grab. Also when close in on a Pit and you have to get away don't roll behind him you will get punished instead roll back or jump away. I think jumping away from his smashes works wonders.

http://www.zshare.net/video/504559484e20b110/

Skip to 0:50 thats when the match starts.

This is my most current fight against a Pit in a tournament. You can see me jump away with a sh and avoid his fsmash though I only do it once, I thought for sure I did it more often. More importantly you can see me try to just run in and get a grab and that doesn't work I just get smashed in the face. You have to get him with a jab and then grab it's the best way to grab a pit. Also don't get reflector happy like I did I was lucky that he ran into more than he should have.
 

Yojimbo

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
309
Location
Western Kentucky
Thanks for the tips, but I've yet to fight him again. But he did fight one of my other friends a day or so ago and also had the same results. I'm still confused.

I'll try and play more aggressively and approach with some nair to jab combos and see how that works.
 

superglucose

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 26, 2008
Messages
127
Zero Suit Samus, just off the top of my head.
I can honestly say I've never played a good ZSS. Diddy may also be up there...

Overall though Falco is a very aggressive character. Being aggressive plays to his strengths, not his weaknesses.
 
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