Pivots- Everything You Need to Know *LOTS OF BRAND NEW INFO*

[~ Gheb ~]

Alright, here are the results of my testings.

I did it in training mode on a custom stage using the blocks on the ground as parameter for the distance covered. I did the inputs for single fox trots [this varied greatly for some characters depending on how strong the input was] until the character was approximately on "the line" between the blocks. Then I counted the amount of blocks passed and divided them by the amount of fox trots needed to cover that distance. The resulting value is the amount of blocks passed by 1 fox trot:

Falcon* ~2.5 Blocks
Sonic*, Charizard*, Toon Link* ~2 Blocks
MK, Fox*, Yoshi* ~1,66667 Blocks
DK, Pikachu, Marth, Sheik, Bowser* ~1.5 Blocks
Samus*, Luigi, Diddy, Pit, Ivysaur, Ness*, Lucas ~1.3333 Blocks
Falco, Squirtle, Ike, ICs, ROB ~1.25 Blocks
Mario, Kirby, GW, Snake, DDD, Wolf, Lucario, Wario*, Olimar ~1 Block
Zelda, Peach ~0.83333 Blocks
Link ~0.75 Blocks
Ganondorf, Jigglypuff ~0.666667 Blocks

Notes:

- The numbers are all approximate values and can vary slightly even if the number is the same. It's hard to categorize characters because of inconsistent inputs, which affects some characters more than others.

- Characters with an * can greatly differ depending on the input. Charizard and Sonic were the most drastic example ranging from 1 block [weakest input] to 2 blocks [strongest input] within 1 fox trot.

- Olimar and Lucario are extremely stable and hardly fluctuate at all.

- Keep in mind that 1 block does not specify an average value. Most characters go further than 1 block / trot, so 1 block / trot is actually under-average. Characters with good walks but short fox trots [Wolf, Snake, DDD] will probably not benefit a lot from it.

 

[Remzi]

Very interesting stuff, thank you. I'll collect data on every characters pivot points soon as well.

Thanks Gheb!

 

[Beat11]

Wow, this seems to be alot more drastic than expected. I wonder why people don't use it?

Anyway, if i am not mistaken anything, a true pivot could basically allow you to do any move of a dash via buffering? correct me if i'm wrong. If so, i can really see an advance in our current metagame.

 

[GeneralWoodman]

Wow, this seems to be alot more drastic than expected. I wonder why people don't use it?

Anyway, if i am not mistaken anything, a true pivot could basically allow you to do any move of a dash via buffering? correct me if i'm wrong. If so, i can really see an advance in our current metagame.

A pivot will put you in neutral standing position...you can then do anything you want.
I'd say pivot shield is the best way to start. Just get used to releasing your thumb and other buttons and quickly repositioning your fingers after doing a pivot.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=j9zOjgtdaSM#t=313s
^old video when i was still messing around with it, good example of shield pivots tho

 

[TheTantalus]

just got the timing down on this...good stuff bengals. (dash fake to dsmash, so good)

 

[Flayl]

I don't know if anybody has said this yet but you don't have to press right during the pivot point, you can buffer the 2nd dash and pivot: Press forward then backward during the last 10 frames of the initial dash.

What you can't buffer is what you want to do during the pivot. That has to be timed.

edit: replaced right and left with forward and backward

 

[MintyFlesh]

Never mind stupid question.

 

[Nefarious B]

Gheb could you test for ZSS as well?

 

[-Jumpman-]

Old in Europe, our metagame is waaaaay ahead of yours.

 

[Mr-R]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

[GeneralWoodman]

Old everywhere, ppl are just cocky and don't share information. And technically we have more videos on this then you guys

 

[Nike.]

The information was shared, nobody in America really uses it (unless ppl do and their vids just never get uploaded).

 

[Orion*]

I stole this from Mr.R after I played him in september and added it to my game and developed a whole lot of mixups with MK- and that got me experimenting with it.

I do mess w/ the true pivots but I don't have it consistently for tilts yet I can just get the dsmash and the grab (I dont see the point to much tbh to technical not worth the effort for grab unless you just want to do it out of a dash dance or something). Tilts require precise work with the control stick unless you want to initiate another dash :/

I was talking to swordgard about this because I was saying I want to be able to dash away and f/dtilt with MK

But I really wanted to get it 100% consistently and actively use it in tournament as part of my mixup game before I really started encouraging others to XD

Great thread BRZ

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Gheb could you test for ZSS as well?

ZSS fluctuates between 1 block [weakest input] and almost 2 blocks [strongest input] per dash.

 

[Mr-R]

Old everywhere, ppl are just cocky and don't share information. And technically we have more videos on this then you guys

the information was shared by americans nobody just used it.
same could be said about platform canceling, I remember watching a 3 year old vid of it on youtube and thought by myself ''why the hell is no one using this xD''

 

[Psychoace]

I wonder if you could get some cool results by putting the platform cancel with the pivot smashes and stuff.

 

[Clai]

I'm trying to get the true pivot down because I feel being able to move even a tiny bit to space that tilt or jab can be essential to spacing. So if you're trying to pivot (ignoring that first foxtrot), you dash to the right, flick the control stick to the left and make sure it returns to neutral in 1-2 frames? I've only managed to do it once or twice by dumb luck, so I'd like to know if anyone knows of a consistent way to do this, because I'd really like to start pivoting tilts and jabs around.

 

[teluoborg]

Lol Falcon, having a bad walk and an incredibly long fox trot.
Still, Tpivot grab can be a better option than the regular one.

 

[OnlyUseMeNades]

Is it possible to be in a full run and do a Fsmash or Dsmash out of it? Using pivots or something?

 

[B.A.M.]

nope. In any case I have been doing this for awhile; I know someppl do it in the WC. The hardest one is true pivot and ftilting the direction you're going towards. Its definitely amazing for characters like Marth and MK with their ridiculous dtilt shenanigans. Truth is though, Marths walk is so fast, he doesnt really need it persey. Although Ive always thought that people should test what could possibly work with it.

For instance, I used to do a GR> True Pivot Fsmash. Also by the way OP, the reason why true pivot fsmash seems so much easier is because its not actually true pivot. You're basically doing a DDP ( dash dance pivot) fsmash. Because you can cancel the beginning of your dash with a smash, it more often than not works. However true pivot cancels the dash entirely first. That resets you to neutral; where you can do other things including those smashes.

And I guess its all new with someppl but Tyrants Marth has been doing dtilt> true pivot fsmash for awhile now. Heck Tyrants Marth does that ish to M2K. Im sure Haze does it too. Its really just another case of people not caring to really understand the game. Ppl just want to emulate who they see winning; no care for exploration.

I mean I asked someone to test GR> buffer true pivot fsmash with me on the Marth boards and noone cared. lol

 

[Remzi]

LMAO at everyone already knowing everything in here. I mean, sure a lot of you already knew about true pivots, but the only thing I'm actually presenting as new is the C-stick mechanics, which I'm like 99% sure VERY VERY few people knew, if any.

Everything else is obviously old information

I'm trying to get the true pivot down because I feel being able to move even a tiny bit to space that tilt or jab can be essential to spacing. So if you're trying to pivot (ignoring that first foxtrot), you dash to the right, flick the control stick to the left and make sure it returns to neutral in 1-2 frames? I've only managed to do it once or twice by dumb luck, so I'd like to know if anyone knows of a consistent way to do this, because I'd really like to start pivoting tilts and jabs around.

Yea, its really hard to do it that way though. Try the new method I mentioned in the OP with the c-stick and see if that works easier for you.

nope. In any case I have been doing this for awhile; I know someppl do it in the WC. The hardest one is true pivot and ftilting the direction you're going towards. Its definitely amazing for characters like Marth and MK with their ridiculous dtilt shenanigans. Truth is though, Marths walk is so fast, he doesnt really need it persey. Although Ive always thought that people should test what could possibly work with it.

For instance, I used to do a GR> True Pivot Fsmash. Also by the way OP, the reason why true pivot fsmash seems so much easier is because its not actually true pivot. You're basically doing a DDP ( dash dance pivot) fsmash. Because you can cancel the beginning of your dash with a smash, it more often than not works. However true pivot cancels the dash entirely first. That resets you to neutral; where you can do other things including those smashes.

And I guess its all new with someppl but Tyrants Marth has been doing dtilt> true pivot fsmash for awhile now. Heck Tyrants Marth does that ish to M2K. Im sure Haze does it too. Its really just another case of people not caring to really understand the game. Ppl just want to emulate who they see winning; no care for exploration.

I mean I asked someone to test GR> buffer true pivot fsmash with me on the Marth boards and noone cared. lol

GR Dash > Fsmash on MK does not work with Marth. I don't know what you mean by true pivot fsmash though. That would entail actually turning around, and I don't see how that would be helpful.

And yea, I mentioned all that about the true pivot in the OP (how it just completely leaves you in a neutral stance).

REAAAD PEOPLE.

But regardless, what I do in the video is almost ALL done with the c-stick. I feel like people need to experiment with that more because it is SO much easier.


Also, Pierce: I tried it while holding attack. C-stick down does absolutely nothing for whatever reason. I can't remember what c-stick left/right in either direction did but I know it didn't work.

C-stick up however, does something interesting. Your character will do a true pivot, and then immediately do a forward dash afterward. This however only happens if can't get the analog back to neutral within two frames. If you DO get it back to neutral, your character just does the true pivot. So basically it doesn't really help at all

 

[vato_break]

Wow awesome read, didn't know anything about true pivots, thanks!

 

[B.A.M.]

Bengalz. First off all that cstick info isnt new. I mean its not that hard to jump from doing true pivot to figuring out hey maybe i can use in conjunction with the cstick for tilts blah blah blah. Just because you didnt know doesnt mean you should automatically disregard the idea of other people knowing (sorry that 99% dont count son).

Secondly, I am glad you are making a topic about it because people should speak about what they have found utilizing true pivot. Theyre needs to be more discussion on this awesome tech.

Thirdly, I spoke about it reverting in neutral stance, because people were stating that Leon and Mr. R do true pivot Fsmashes. Theyre not. they are utilizing the tech dash dance pivot to fsmash because you can cancel the beginning of your dash with a smash attack which is how stutter steps smashes work. However in utility they are virtually the same and the other is definitely far easier to get down consistently

Also again the reason I was talking about gr> true pivot fsmash (and yes you can attack the same direction you are initially facing with true pivot; you end true pivot in neutral man u said that yourself) is not necessarily about the tech. Its the fact that time and time again this topic has arisen Bengalz. The same information you have placed has shown up in different character boards. We sonics in 2008 were working on true pivots with c-stick. I am glad that you are speaking on pivots and that you wish spread the knowledge. I am just letting you know it has been done before. That being said I really want this thread to continue; for awhile now ive been wondering what could possibly link if people were able to get more consistent at it?

For instance marth; I remember awhile ago (dont know if it was proven false or not) someone said tipper jab> dash> up b works. If it works or not, id never know because although somewhat tested, ive never seen a marth do it to my knowledge. Things like these would definitely a lovely addition to see among marths. Im certain that dtilt>true pivot dtilt (again doing it the initial way) can link. Maybe be damn difficult but should be possible. There was time i was pretty solid at true pivot ftilting ( all towards the opponent). Im sure theyre others with more tech skill than I who can come up with potentially new true combos/strings.

Im not knocking you Bengalz, and Im definitely not trying to boast ( as you said everyone states in this thread they were aware of this knowledge). Im trying move from 'oh thats cool' and 'oh I already know that' to 'i check some frame data and i think with true pivot these tilts/ jabs could work or be a decent setup'. Theres so much people who done research on how to do this tech. People need to start actually thinking what to do with it AND testing if it actually works.

 

[Clai]

Yea, its really hard to do it that way though. Try the new method I mentioned in the OP with the c-stick and see if that works easier for you.

The problem with setting C-stick to attack is that I know, I just know that I will be at some point buffering U-tilts during my matches.

As Ganondorf.

A situation I'd rather not subject myself too. I'll just have to mess around and see if being able to true pivot will offset any potential mistakes from changing my C-stick scheme.