Playing MK is beneficial for progressing in Brawl.

[Sky`]

Recently, it dawned on me.

Many people say, "MK is so cheap. MK is so easy to play. MK this, MK that, Down smash BBBBB Yadda yadda."

And while it's all fun to say that, and to make MK players feel like garbage, I guess it just dawned on me... What do they really have to go through, you know?

After analyzing this for a bit, I spoke to a rising So-Cal star, Tyrant, on his opinion.


Talking with him, as well as watching some matches progress made me realize something.

As we know, there are three things to the matches in brawl, when it comes to the competitive scene. When you walk into a tournament, and you play your match, the outcome of the match is usually assumed on the following:

The Base Matchup Ratio.
The Character
and You as a Player.

The only thing that you can really develop to a superlative is developing you as a player. Mindgames, spacing, prediction, etc. This is telling you pretty much how to acquire those skills, and use them to your full potential. Having that said, get a load of this;

MK is one of the hardest characters to play in this entire game, if not the hardest.

here's an Example. Say someone you know picked up MK today, and they are thinking, "I'm going to win now!"

Because he is so Main stream, we as a community have exploited MK for every weakness, or lack there of, that he has. Scrubby MK's will not make it past their first matches, and they will go 0-2 in every tournament that matters. So in order for an MK to subsist in tournament, not only do they have to be good, they have to be able to keep up with the already amazing MKs.

And what does that mean? Well that means that they are going to have to literally be on top of this game, to a degree unimaginable. Knowing each matchup better than they know your matchup, which is obviously going to be amazingly hard. So if you want to succeed with MK, you're going to have to know the whole roster, front and back.

Additionally, trivial typical MK things are over with. The spamming of Tornado has been soft countered by most characters. So the bottom line is, you're going to have to mix it up. Problem is, you'll probably cycle through a lot of things before you find something that No other MK does, because chances are, it's been done before.

So now you're going to be constantly stuck between a rock and a hard place, finding something unique about your MK. This is good, because on your journey, you will be picking up on some essential habits, and very important things about brawl.

What will you pick up?

You will learn how to Predict. Along your quest to become a good MK, you will be losing, a lot. But on your way, you'll be seeing people, sitting on the sidelines, and just watching. When you play, you'll be watching your loss/win very carefully. You're going to have to play the hell out of this game to beat a decent person with MK, so with that exploitation of each character, with all that character knowledge, eventually you'll start seeing what each character has to do to win. And with that knowledge, you'll learn to predict what others might do.

Spacing is key for tournament play, right? Like any character, if you miss space anything you'll get punished. The difference between MK and other characters, is the simple fact that everybody knows what to punish, and what not. I'm not going to mess around with MK when he's Foward B-ing on the Stage, or Tornadoing toward me, but the second he Dsmashes and I shield it, I'm going to punish that easily. We as a community have learned how to punish MK the best ways we can, so you're going to have to be on the top of your game in every regard. One miss spaced anything will result in a smash that will likely KO you. Why do I say that? because if you're not skilled enough to space will with MK, you most likely don't know the repercussions that are coming. As an MK, if you want to win, you'll pretty much be forced to space well.

Mind games will come just as natural. Like I said earlier, doing insipid things that are easily read will cause you to lose. So in order to win as MK, you're going to have to out wit your opponent. This will cause you to implement Mind games into your style of play. Using your own personal play style, you'll have to pull together, and do things that will shock or confuse your opponent. Something they, 'haven't seen before'.

Now, am I saying, "GO OUT THER, DROP UR KARACTER, N PIK UP MK LOLOLOL."? No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying, that by just learning how to use him, you'll know not only how to maybe fight against him, but you will develop the tools essential for boosting your self in this game, and you'll learn the skills that you can go back and apply to your other character. Every character needs Mind games, prediction, spacing, etc. And by using this method, you can achieve your full potential, as a player.

Bring on the haters, I know there are going to be some of you saying, "BUUUUT SKAIII, WITH HARD WORK I CAN LEARN ALL THAT WITH MY OWN GUIZE TO B GOOD CUZ I GOT IT HARDER CUZ I'M NOT MK!" While this is partially true, you've got to look at it this way. Lets say you main Diddy. That character is still culture shocking the brawl community, (People don't really know him yet.) So if you went to a tournament, and placed high, you wouldn't really need to use that many Mind games and such, you would just have to play Diddy, and overwhelm your opponent with the arsenal of Diddy's attacks. No real Mind games needed. But if you picked MK... everybody knows him. So you're going to have to rely on the skills you achieve as a smahser, rather than the base advantages that your character already has in that respect.

And yes, I'm an advocate that not all characters can win tournaments, because I have a feeling that's going to be brought up. Dtier and Below have such a low chance of winning a regional, or any major tournament, that I've rounded it down to an impossibility. Call it pessimism, I call it realistic.


tl;dr?

MK is Main stream, and everybody knows that character inside and out. 5 frame Downsmash, I'm sure you guys know the rest. So if you were to play him seriously for a few tournaments, and start learning the character in depth, not only will you learn him, but you'll be forced to learn the mental things needed to be exceptionally well at this game.

This is just my opinion. I just wanted to see what you guys thought about it. =D
Edit: I changed the title, I didn't want to use such a strong word. Cause though it's amazingly helpful, it isn't absolutely needed.

 

[Remzi]

I'd venture to say that the superiority of his character design still puts him over the rest of the cast in terms of ease of use. While people may be used to fighting MK, that doesn't automatically make it easy.

Sure, we all know when we can punish an MK or where his openings are. But he has so many options, that it really isn't difficult for an MK player to outwit and outplay his opponent.

 

[Johnny Pteran]

Just because you know what the character is going to do, doesn't mean that you can do anything about it. Certain characters just get ***** by MK, regardless if you can see what's coming or not.

 

[brinboy789]

well yes, any half-decent smasher should at least know how to deal with metaknight.

 

[Da-D-Mon-109]

Metaknight isn't a hard character to play or to beat. But newbies can't just pick him up and master him, he's not that unbalancedly easy to use. And people can't pick just anyone to beat him, he is the game's best character. To be good at Brawl, you gotta be able to practice a lot and work hard. And I guess those that do can either pick Metaknight for the fruit of their efforts, or pick a counter to him and fight just as well, or pick their favorites, and fight their own way. I like the last path.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I'd venture to say that the superiority of his character design still puts him over the rest of the cast in terms of ease of use. While people may be used to fighting MK, that doesn't automatically make it easy.

Winning against top tier characters is never easy. They are top tier for a reason. Have you ever had an easy time against a good Snake?

Sure, we all know when we can punish an MK or where his openings are. But he has so many options, that it really isn't difficult for an MK player to outwit and outplay his opponent.

And where do you know that from? Last time I checked you weren't a top or high level Meta Knight player. Obviously, it's hard to "outwit and outplay" an opponent if he knows all your options and how to deal with them.

Just because you know what the character is going to do, doesn't mean that you can do anything about it. Certain characters just get ***** by MK, regardless if you can see what's coming or not.

That's too bad for them. A lot of characters get ***** even harder by Snake or King Dedede. But nobody cares about garbage characters in competitive play.

...

I kind of agree with the OP though I think you should've kept it shorter. Unless I'm horribly stupid the point is that playing MK makes you understand him better. Thus people who can't deal with him should pick him up, if only for the sake of understanding him better. This is always a good idea: If you can't win against a certain character, just pick him up and learn to understand them better.

 

[OverLade]

I think this is a very intelligent post.

Playing the character with the most options then going back to characters with less options teaches you not only to conserve MK's best options, but work with other characters limited options.

Interesting, though I think "very beneficial" is a lil of an overstatement lol.

 

[DKKountry]

Just because you know what the character is going to do, doesn't mean that you can do anything about it. Certain characters just get ***** by MK, regardless if you can see what's coming or not.

Very true. Just because you're a physics major doesn't mean you can't get crushed by a rock.

That waz a lulzy metaphor.

 

[Remzi]

Winning against top tier characters is never easy. They are top tier for a reason. Have you ever had an easy time against a good Snake?

The OP implies that it is harder to win with MK than with most others, or at least thats how I'm reading it. A good Snake has to work hard to become good, as does an MK, just not as hard.

And where do you know that from? Last time I checked you weren't a top or high level Meta Knight player. Obviously, it's hard to "outwit and outplay" an opponent if he knows all your options and how to deal with them.

I know this from playing countless MKs. It helps to play every character in the game to learn your main's matchup against said character, that is known. But simply playing a certain matchup a lot serves as a more than suitable substitute. MK has more options in many situations than most characters, and his options are usually a lot better, hence him achieving his SS tier status. Being one of the faster moving characters in the game, his options are also harder to stop. Just knowing that it is possible for him to use a certain move at a certain time does not mean that he will use it, it just means that it is an option. If Meta is dashing towards me, I may know all of his options, but that doesn't mean I will stop it because his options are better and more diverse than mine in most instances.

I'm not here to complain about Meta though, I don't really believe him to be ban-worthy anymore.

 

[Sky`]

Winning against top tier characters is never easy. They are top tier for a reason. Have you ever had an easy time against a good Snake?



And where do you know that from? Last time I checked you weren't a top or high level Meta Knight player. Obviously, it's hard to "outwit and outplay" an opponent if he knows all your options and how to deal with them.



That's too bad for them. A lot of characters get ***** even harder by Snake or King Dedede. But nobody cares about garbage characters in competitive play.

...

I kind of agree with the OP though I think you should've kept it shorter. Unless I'm horribly stupid the point is that playing MK makes you understand him better. Thus people who can't deal with him should pick him up, if only for the sake of understanding him better. This is always a good idea: If you can't win against a certain character, just pick him up and learn to understand them better.

I have a bad habit of dragging things out.

When I do, I usually get more ideas later, and I keep typing.

=D

 

[ndayday]

You could just say any of the very top tiers, because with my understanding of the thread the best character in the game is hard to beat due to knowledge of the latter. So technically, as the tier list goes down the importance of knowing the given character to increase your overall gameplay goes down as well. It makes sense, but that means the very bottom of the list will not benefit you in your overall understanding of the game, or at least not as much as the better characters in the game.

I agree with this thread.

 

[WingedKnight]

I approve of this thread! XD
It's true, knowing your opponent is KEY to doing well in anything! I may not go to tournaments (I would if I could, probably will if there's one near me), but I make it my business to know the matchups, specifics of the gameplay, and ins and outs of every character on the roster. Your post well put, a little lengthy perhaps, but excellent nevertheless.

 

[KO M]

This is just the confidence boost I was looking for...

 

[Shadic]

A good Metaknight will beat a good Link. Almost hands down.

Metaknight is where he is because he is the best character in the hands down, with almost no flaws. A noob isn't going to be able to pick up Metaknight and own a tournament with him, but somebody who knows the game inside-out can pick him up and do nearly as well with him (If not better) than they could their own main, in a lot of cases.

 

[Falconv1.0]

Just because you know what the character is going to do, doesn't mean that you can do anything about it. Certain characters just get ***** by MK, regardless if you can see what's coming or not.

Johnny you're a massive scrub, so why do you even bother posting in places where people actually play the ****ing game to win. MK barely has any match ups worse than 6:4 over people, WOW EVER HEARD OF THE ****ING CP SYSTEM.


@Shadic and other fools whom I will not suffer

Stop bringing up ****ty characters when we talk about Metaknight, dear god people. "A good Metaknight will beat a good Link. Almost hands down."-Wow I tooooootaaaaallly couldn't say that about ANY other match up vs a low tier with ANY CHARACTER. Naw, it's just MK, yeah, that's why Link's unviable. Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

And epic lulz at your ignorance, if you just pick up MK and he does better than your main you suck at playing your main or your main sucks ***.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Most of this stuff is true for every character.

 

[Natch]

Frame 2 Uair, Frame 3 Dair, Jab starts on Frame 7. Shuttle Loop has Invc on frame 1(and ONLY when grounded) and comes out frame 5.

Everyone knows MK, you're right.

 

[Espy Rose]

Most of this stuff is true for every character.

I was just about to post the same exact thing.
Good thing some people actually read through the threads, eh?

 

[hichez50]

Im going to say that meta knight is easy to be good with. But every charater is hard to become GREAT or EXCELLENT with.

 

[Skyshroud]

The main flaw with your argument that I would like to point out is that sometimes using a good character can lead to bad habits. It really comes down to playing against better players, not using MK. MK can get away with more bad moves because he is, for the most part, safer than other characters. If you use a character that gets punished more, you should learn to avoid the bad moves at a faster pace, since the opponent won't mess up when punishing as often.

 

[SpongeBathBill]

Additionally, trivial typical MK things are over with. The spamming of Tornado has been soft countered by most characters. So the bottom line is, you're going to have to mix it up. Problem is, you'll probably cycle through a lot of things before you find something that No other MK does, because chances are, it's been done before.

So now you're going to be constantly stuck between a rock and a hard place, finding something unique about your MK.

That's a fair point - you can't be predictable or spam moves with obvious counters - bit the idea is not be unique, the idea is to be effective. Uniqueness is not what wins games.

 

[XienZo]

Hmmm... that is true...

But what if I want to be effecient? What if I want to win the most amount of tournaments with the LEAST amount of skill/effort/time? That would mean I SHOULDN'T use MK since he requires the most skill because of the reasons in the OP. Or basically, if you remove the roundabout logic, I shouldn't use MK because everyone else knows how to play with/against him.

 

[Plum]

Hmmm... that is true...

But what if I want to be effecient? What if I want to win the most amount of tournaments with the LEAST amount of skill/effort/time? That would mean I SHOULDN'T use MK since he requires the most skill because of the reasons in the OP. Or basically, if you remove the roundabout logic, I shouldn't use MK because everyone else knows how to play with/against him.

In a way I would agree but there comes the point where this won't be true anymore at the same time.

I'm going to be honest, I cannot play MK if my life depended on it. For my to go out and start winning with MK would be much harder to do than to run out and win with somebody like G&W or Snake. I would say that to develop a tourney level character (as in local scale... not yet regional or anything big) that MK would be much harder to accomplish than a character like Snake, G&W or DDD. Those characters have a much easier time being "good" than MK.

You could go pretty far if you know how to cook a grenade and when a Utilt will kill as Snake.

You can go pretty far knowing that Bair is your friend, Nair through platforms, Dtilt is a "get away from me move" and throw kill moves out as a G&W.

You can go pretty far knowing that "X" character can be chaingrabbed or not, your grab range is ridiculous so abuse it, F tilt has huge range, and throw Bairs and Fairs when you want to gimp as DDD

And yeah, at an early level a MK player won't go too far simply because everybody knows everything about him.

But that is really for a local level thing. I would say that as the level of skill needed to compete increases it becomes easier to use MK to do well. His style of play becomes much more dominant in the hands of a top level player and you won't see the "insert best character main" being beat out by the "not best out there" MK main until these levels of skill.

To the OP, I get what you are saying but you will go through this no matter who you pick up as a main. MK might experience this faster, or slower, or whatever but I would agree with Alpha in that any character will teach you what you need to know eventually.

 

[XienZo]

I think the point the OP was making with MK vs other characters is that since everyone's tierwhoring the hell out of him, you don't have any "surprise" advantage like you might with Luigi, or any other advan and the only thing seperating you from the next MK main is skill, and playing MK will teach you to improve skill only, since thats the only thing that will actually help you.

 

[FrozenFire13]

Johnny you're a massive scrub, so why do you even bother posting in places where people actually play the ****ing game to win. MK barely has any match ups worse than 6:4 over people, WOW EVER HEARD OF THE ****ING CP SYSTEM.


@Shadic and other fools whom I will not suffer

Stop bringing up ****ty characters when we talk about Metaknight, dear god people. "A good Metaknight will beat a good Link. Almost hands down."-Wow I tooooootaaaaallly couldn't say that about ANY other match up vs a low tier with ANY CHARACTER. Naw, it's just MK, yeah, that's why Link's unviable. Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

And epic lulz at your ignorance, if you just pick up MK and he does better than your main you suck at playing your main or your main sucks ***.

10douchebags.

EDIT: I felt as if that was completely necessary. Lawl.

 

[Uffe]

I was going to quote you, but you're basically speaking for the whole roster and players, not just MK. Everybody has to learn their match ups, everybody has to learn their character before actually defeating their opponents and everybody has pulled off the most obvious tricks known to Smashers around here. Basically everybody mains a character who is limited and there really isn't anything "new" that you can pull off with MK. The thing is is that he's quick, he can fly, doesn't really have bad match ups, etc. etc. Basically what I'm saying is is that every character takes time to learn, not just MK.

So no, MK isn't the hardest if not the hardest character to learn. Certain characters have easier learning curves, some do not. Each character takes some sort of effort, not just MK. Also, don't name drop.

 

[Munas]

Playing MK helps you learn the match up: Absolutely true.

MK is the hardest character to learn/play in the game: Seriously? MK is no where near the hardest character to play or learn in the game. The skill level required to do well with him, is not higher than even a slim majority of characters in the game. He is among the easiest characters to play and learn. Yes, it's true, if I pick up Meta Knight and decide to have me some matches with M2K or Azen I'm probably just going to get ***** because they're ******** and know the match up like the back of their hand. Heck, I probably have a better chance of getting slightly less ***** if I choose a character that that particular person doesn't know, say Diddy Kong, Zero Suit Samus, whoever.
However, in situations where your not going up against some of the best players in the world and the skill gap isn't ridiculous your probably safest to just pick MK.
Most people in this thread are talking about how any decent player knows how to fight a MK, this is true, what's also true is that most decent players know the match ups for their character pretty well. Unless something comes completely out of left field you're not going to stun your way to the top with the element of "holy ****, I've never fought this character before!!!!111eleven!" And if you really have that much of a surprise factor you're probably picking someone like Luigi or Zelda in which case, good luck fighting those MKs which everyone knows how to fight.

The problem with the logic of this argument is that there's very few characters around who are both shockingly out of no where and actually good enough to compete, especially with the big bad MK himself. You might get Diddy and maybe Zero Suit Samus, but those "holy **** they're in this game!?" advantages are going to disappear the longer this game is around, and already I'm seeing a trend where more players are picking up those characters meaning their becoming more mainstream and more people are learning their match ups too. There are only so many match ups to learn and eventually there's not going to be a left field to shock people from, meaning that even though MK is most well known match up right now the very minor disadvantage that might serve is fleeting because the gap is going to close again anyway.

I don't think MK is broken beyond reason, and I don't think he needs to be banned, but let's be realistic here people: MK is unbalanced. He's safer and easier to learn than most of the other characters in the game. Yes, there are characters who can compete with him, but it doesn't change the fact that he's the best character in the game by a fair margin.

 

[The Real Inferno]

I was 0-deathing seasoned players with Meta Knight on my first day using him. **** he's hard to use XD. Seriously though, to do decently well with Meta Knight, it's -not- that hard. If you want to win a tournament, you'll have to work just like anyone else, but you'll find your spacing is easier to use, harder to punish, and overall much more forgiving to mistakes than any other character in the game. Off the top of my head, I would go so far as to say he's also the only character that can reward so many different types of play styles (campy, aggro, patient, spammy, arial, grounded etc). There's something for everyone in him, which only lends to his popularity.

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

Forcing yourself to try to win with any character can help you learn to do things that are especially important.

Play Marth for a while and you're forced to learn to always space your moves. Play Wario for a while and you're forced to learn to not get grabbed. Play Lucario for a while and you're forced to learn to avoid killmoves.

These are all vital skills for any character main, but playing as someone to whom something is hyperessential is naturally going to drill it into your head that much faster.

 

[Alus]

And MK teaches you to be aggressive?

 

[DemonFart]

And MK teaches you to be aggressive?

made brawl with his holy wings.
he is aggressive yes.

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

And MK teaches you to be aggressive?

Not always. It did for me, but doesn't for everyone.

 

[1048576]

Hey guya we learned Marths matchups in Melee better than Pichus so Pichu must be superior.

No.

MK has the best matchup ratios and character attributes in the game, by far. No amount of knowing how many frames of start-up and lag his d-smash has will change the fact that it's not a whole lot.

I used to play Ike in tourney. Now I play MK. I'm a lot better with Ike. I know what I'm doing. With MK I just close my eyes and randomly alternate between f-tilt, D-Smash, Shuttle Lopp, Nado, and all those other moves that any other character would kill to have, and I win a lot more.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

Metaknight makes brawl seem quicker

I feel fine vs bad metaknights

who cares about down smash and nado spam, learn the moves to get out of it, I have even matches regardless of who I play

 

[Sorgens]

A lot of the OP is true but saying MK is the hardest to play has sound logic but unrealistic application.

 

[hotgarbage]

Frame 2 Uair, Frame 3 Dair, Jab starts on Frame 7. Shuttle Loop has Invc on frame 1(and ONLY when grounded) and comes out frame 5.

Everyone knows MK, you're right.

Minor corrections:
Dair hits on frame 4
Grounded Shuttle loop has invincibility on frames 5-8; hitbox comes out on frame 8

 

[Ebonyks]

I'm amazed so many people have missed Sky's point. Of course metaknight has an advantage against other characters, but it's all about the level of play. In the absolute metagame of smash bros, where you'll face M2k, DSF, etc., Knowledge of match-up's is *still* a determining factor. For example, m2k has problems when facing diddy. When played into a lower calibur of play, the knowledge of match-ups becomes an larger concern.

Metaknight is still the best character when in the hands of the masters, no doubt. Metaknight will still have a huge advantage against most lower-tier characters. But, high tier characters, specifically with esoteric metagames (diddy comes to mind, snake is too, but since so many people play him it's less of an issue), have an advantage in that people aren't sure how to play against them.

It's all about levels of play. Recently, someone put together a chart describing how various characters match-up at different levels of play. At the very top of the metagame, metaknight reins supreme. However, when you look at local tournaments and tournaments where people don't have the depth of knowledge about smash, people will a lot more time focusing on the metaknight match-up than say, the d3 match-up, or the diddy match-up.

Because of this, metaknight may not be the best character to choose on this level of play. He will always be a very good character, better than most low tier characters, but not always the best. His many advantages can be somewhat outweighted based on knowledge of his playstyle. That is why a higher level of player skill will be needed to compensate for a metagame evolving to counter metaknight at the level of smaller tournaments.

 

[Zankoku]

The best character is the best character is the best character. Yes, practically everybody who's interested in placing in a tournament will know how to play against Meta Knight, and thus you will need to know how to play practically every matchup, but how is that any different from the rest of the cast?

Just because fewer people would know how to deal with, say, Toon Link, doesn't mean doesn't have to be just as aware of both his options and his opponent's. It just means that he starts with a potential initial advantage of the opponent being unfamiliar with his character. That isn't an advantage anyone should rely on.

 

[Sky`]

I'm amazed so many people have missed Sky's point. Of course metaknight has an advantage against other characters, but it's all about the level of play. In the absolute metagame of smash bros, where you'll face M2k, DSF, etc., Knowledge of match-up's is *still* a determining factor. For example, m2k has problems when facing diddy. When played into a lower calibur of play, the knowledge of match-ups becomes an larger concern.

Metaknight is still the best character when in the hands of the masters, no doubt. Metaknight will still have a huge advantage against most lower-tier characters. But, high tier characters, specifically with esoteric metagames (diddy comes to mind, snake is too, but since so many people play him it's less of an issue), have an advantage in that people aren't sure how to play against them.

It's all about levels of play. Recently, someone put together a chart describing how various characters match-up at different levels of play. At the very top of the metagame, metaknight reins supreme. However, when you look at local tournaments and tournaments where people don't have the depth of knowledge about smash, people will a lot more time focusing on the metaknight match-up than say, the d3 match-up, or the diddy match-up.

Because of this, metaknight may not be the best character to choose on this level of play. He will always be a very good character, better than most low tier characters, but not always the best. His many advantages can be somewhat outweighted based on knowledge of his playstyle. That is why a higher level of player skill will be needed to compensate for a metagame evolving to counter metaknight at the level of smaller tournaments.

/applauds.

Bravo sir.

 

[Xyro77]

when the scene boils down to meta dittos and or meta vs snake. you will finally understand what we all have been trying to say.