Playing MK is beneficial for progressing in Brawl.

[kailo34ce]

mk is god tier dude...lol

if you pick up any new character you should prolly go 0-2 in tournament

this is a joke thread right?

 

[SothE700k]

when the scene boils down to meta dittos and or meta vs snake. you will finally understand what we all have been trying to say.

*facepalm*

 

[Johnny Pteran]

Johnny you're a massive scrub, so why do you even bother posting in places where people actually play the ****ing game to win. MK barely has any match ups worse than 6:4 over people, WOW EVER HEARD OF THE ****ING CP SYSTEM.


@Shadic and other fools whom I will not suffer

Stop bringing up ****ty characters when we talk about Metaknight, dear god people. "A good Metaknight will beat a good Link. Almost hands down."-Wow I tooooootaaaaallly couldn't say that about ANY other match up vs a low tier with ANY CHARACTER. Naw, it's just MK, yeah, that's why Link's unviable. Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

And epic lulz at your ignorance, if you just pick up MK and he does better than your main you suck at playing your main or your main sucks ***.

You need to settle down, imo.

 

[Hive]

I sort of have this feeling that player experience needed to be good with a character sort of evens out a little bit at high levels of play. Characters who are low tier or end of being hard to master end up being played less and so end up have less experience against them, and are sort of boosted a bit. Characters with high potential and easy to master at first end up being played more, and as a result other people have more experience against them and they need to get even a little better (thogh exp your opponent has can only effect the matchup by so much imo. for example in an extreme case it doesn't really matter how much exp dk has against ddd in a place without icg ban, it won't effect the matchup by much). So in a way if you play mk you have to get to a little bit of a higher level than most other characters. So I guess the question is- which is harder, using mk to get to a more competitive point over the rest of the cast, or a lower tier character to overcome their disadvantages/character techs to get to a competitive level below mk?. I think overall mk is sort of in the middle of the cast in terms of difficulty to master.

 

[Uffe]

I'm amazed so many people have missed Sky's point. Of course metaknight has an advantage against other characters, but it's all about the level of play. In the absolute metagame of smash bros, where you'll face M2k, DSF, etc., Knowledge of match-up's is *still* a determining factor. For example, m2k has problems when facing diddy. When played into a lower calibur of play, the knowledge of match-ups becomes an larger concern.

Metaknight is still the best character when in the hands of the masters, no doubt. Metaknight will still have a huge advantage against most lower-tier characters. But, high tier characters, specifically with esoteric metagames (diddy comes to mind, snake is too, but since so many people play him it's less of an issue), have an advantage in that people aren't sure how to play against them.

It's all about levels of play. Recently, someone put together a chart describing how various characters match-up at different levels of play. At the very top of the metagame, metaknight reins supreme. However, when you look at local tournaments and tournaments where people don't have the depth of knowledge about smash, people will a lot more time focusing on the metaknight match-up than say, the d3 match-up, or the diddy match-up.

Because of this, metaknight may not be the best character to choose on this level of play. He will always be a very good character, better than most low tier characters, but not always the best. His many advantages can be somewhat outweighted based on knowledge of his playstyle. That is why a higher level of player skill will be needed to compensate for a metagame evolving to counter metaknight at the level of smaller tournaments.

You might as well have made this topic. Reading what Sky wrote looked like, "This character is hard because he has to deal with every match up in the game and has to be played differently in order to win." But again, every character has to deal with this sort of thing. I could have made the same topic, word for word and replaced MK with Falcon.

 

[Kitamerby]

If I was going to pick up MK, it would be simply because he is the most versatile character in the game, and thus is quite fun. Almost everyone else in this game is extremely linear, so versatility is pretty cool. He can combo, kill well, recover amazingly, gimp with like any move, and is just really really versatile. You can play MK almost any way you want and still have a chance with the big boys. I hear TKD plays a MK without using Dsmash at all. Alot of people play MK defensively. Some play offense. Some go aerial. Some go grounded. Some like using grabs alot. Some wanna prove that MK can do well without X move. Some wanna use all his moveset, and some wanna try playing a balance of offense and defense. No matter what your reason, or how you wanna play this game, you can play MK any way you want, so long as you do it smartly, and still win. That's why I would main him, if I felt like it.

It's probably a reason for a good chunk of MK mains. (I wanna play MY way, but I don't wanna lose doing it.)

But really, match-up knowledge vs./with MK doesn't really matter as much until you get higher up the ladder. Bad MKs are generally bad players. A good player will generally be good with their character, and will probably win with an advantage unless the matchup is really wacky (don't get grabbed by Bowser/Yoshi, Diddy Kong).

Who cares, though. Play MK if you like his moveset, or if you wanna play it in a way other characters can't offer you.

 

[choknater]

Picking up Metaknight actually improved my performance with all the rest of my characters, especially Pikachu and Kirby.

 

[Melomaniacal]

I've been saying this exact thing since the start of the MK debating.

 

[Da-D-Mon-109]

If he's helpful in people learning to get better, then why do people want him banned for saying that he limits the Metagame, when his very pressence actually helps players increase in Skill?

I honestly only play him as one of my gimics now. I'm not good with too many of the floaty aerials... But Metaknight is just awesome... I remember my past days of playing all of the Kirby Games, and I pay homage to them by playing with him.

 

[Falconv1.0]

I've tried playing MK like 3 times and I still find my Kirby and my Snake to fare better in tourneys.

Just sayin~

 

[Natch]

I've tried playing MK like 3 times and I still find my Kirby and my Snake to fare better in tourneys.

Just sayin~

You go Snake-Kirby too?

Awesome.

 

[Roxas215]

Just because u know what is coming or what the mk player is thinking doesn't automatically mean you will beat him. Mk ***** certain chars and wether you know what is coming or not don't mean you will be able to stop it.


But in defense yes i think mk mains aren't giving enough credit. MK is the most hated char in the game and everyone knows him inside and out so yes a good mk main probably knows a hell of a lot more about the matchups then most people.

 

[ndayday]

Using that logic, anyone that plays any one character specifically has about the same chance of learning all the matchups then your example with Meta Knight. I don't understand why Meta Knight is being specified, if a character has a tough time beating your main they are naturally going to try to find your weaknesses. That holds true for nearly every single character. It doesn't have to be MK, all this thread is saying is that if you learn a character's weaknesses etc. very well, it progresses your game.

(Unless somehow learning MK is more beneficial then learning any other character)

 

[AvaricePanda]

I think what OP's trying to say is because basically everybody knows how to play against MK because you have to fight him a lot, playing MK will up your mental and reaction games because you have to work around people who know all of your weaknesses.

I don't agree. Do I think playing MK will help you focus and think about what you're doing more? Yes. But really, you can do that with anyone. Every character should know all of their matchups, so nothing should come to a surprise to X character if they're fighting them. Just because MK is played more doesn't mean it's harder for him because people know him inside-out. People should know every character inside-out.

Maining your main will help your actual character and you as a player, killing two birds with one stone. You don't have to do it specifically with MK.

 

[XienZo]

II don't agree. Do I think playing MK will help you focus and think about what you're doing more? Yes. But really, you can do that with anyone. Every character should know all of their matchups, so nothing should come to a surprise to X character if they're fighting them. Just because MK is played more doesn't mean it's harder for him because people know him inside-out. People should know every character inside-out.

Maining your main will help your actual character and you as a player, killing two birds with one stone. You don't have to do it specifically with MK.

In a perfect world, we should all know every character inside-out. However, since its not, real-world issues force us to know MK better than other characters, like:

How many start-up frames does MK's Dsmash have?

What about Mario's?

What goes through MK's tornado?

What about DK's up-B?

 

[Falconv1.0]

You go Snake-Kirby too?

Awesome.

Tis be a match made in heaven.

Seriously everyone good vs. Snake is bad vs. Kirby and everyone good vs. Kirby is bad vs Snake.

Snake vs snake is 60/40 IMO.

 

[Veng]

Just because you know what the character is going to do, doesn't mean that you can do anything about it. Certain characters just get ***** by MK, regardless if you can see what's coming or not.

dont main falcon?

@OP

yea.... mk has been searched in and out hours over hours to try and find weaknesses, usually doesnt happen since he can stuff any approach with his shuttle loop but... you know

I <3 Broken then.

gtfo

 

[Falconv1.0]

dont main falcon?

Johnny thinks anyone who uses a character above mid is a 'tier *****' or some nonsense like that, he's got a **** ton more issues than MK vs Falcon.

 

[Roager]

I understand where the OP is coming from, but I disagree. Most of the things he says can be applied to any character in the roster. And having a different character doesn't change the competition. You'll fight the same people whether you're MK, Marth, Falcon, Sonic, Ness, or DK. Also, the simple fact that people know a lot about MK doesn't magically make him a bad character. Or even a worse character. That Ganon player may KNOW about all the disadvantages he has against your MK, but they're all still there.

Plus, this could just as easily be a pro-ban argument as anything else.

If we assume everything in the OP to be true, then MK is getting SO important that exclusively maining any other character seems stupid. Using MK gets you farther faster. Yes, the OP is not saying that you have to MAIN MK. It simply advocates learning MK in order to improve.

The fact that this opinion exists seems like reason for MK ban.

Yes, I am pro-ban. I do not believe MK to be unbeatable. I do believe him to be too important. This thread highlights his importance, and is, as I said, reason to ban.

 

[SexTornado]

Uhh, I play mk and this is wrong... He's actually quite easy to pick up as a character.

 

[Hive]

you know what would make this thread like a jillion times cooler? If we changed the title to
"Beating Mk is Beneficial for Brawl" lol ^^

 

[ndayday]

Uhh, I play mk and this is wrong... He's actually quite easy to pick up as a character.

Maybe as a character, but you need to learn how to play against nearly every character since everyone tries/finds ways to beat certain aspects of him. Have you won tournaments with him? Have you beat high level players with him? Have you done everything the OP entails? If not then your a little bit wrong, according to the though behind the thread. =P

 

[|RK|]

you know what would make this thread like a jillion times more correct? If we changed the title to
"Beating Mk is Beneficial for Brawl" lol ^^

Jokah'd .

 

[Wschl]

Got the main idea behind that Thread.
However, i think if u play with REALLY Punishable Chars, who get more ***** by an punishment, u will understand the importence of Spacing for example even better.
Anyway, i think im going to play Mk at Smack

 

[1048576]

I agree with above post.

MK's D-Smash is as punishable as Ike's jab, lol.

 

[Ebonyks]

^

Playing highly punishable characters will cause you to learn more about mindgames, reading your enemy's reactions, and throwing out laggy attacks in anticipation of their moves. I don't consider myself to be particularly skilled with MK, but even I can see how spacing is a bigger part of his metagame than, say, Ike's.

One difference that other people may be able to relate to is the idea of reaching plateau's. With ike, the plateau is extremely easy to reach. Once you understand his move set and how to use them, there's not a lot of technical room to improve. Instead, the game becomes about reading reactions which is extremely hard at lower levels of play. You'll get punished and again, no matter how tight your technical skills become until you can read your enemy well.

Metaknight, on the other hand, is relatively hard to punish. Because of that, your technical skills will naturally evolve more. Spacing yourself to avoid punishment is far more practical with metaknight than with someone like Ike. Because of that, you'll naturally start using attacks in a way they won't be punished. You learn that tornado spam is highly punishable against a sharp enemy, etc. Because of that, I feel metaknight is the best character to refine the technical side of brawl. Without a keen understanding of your enemy's attack patterns, one can still do reasonably well with metaknight. You're not going to be winning tournies without it, but you'll be able to place from time to time. With someone like Ike, it's simply not possible against reasonably skilled players.

Also, will everyone please stop arguing that knowledge of metaknight still puts him above low tiers? Of course that's the case, he's top tier for a reason. The subject at hand relates to tournament viable characters. A ganon player can know everything there to know about MK, and if his skill level is close to a MK, they will still lose the match 9 times out of 10. Ganon simply isn't viable, as is about half the cast at a tournament level.

 

[Roager]

^
Also, will everyone please stop arguing that knowledge of metaknight still puts him above low tiers? Of course that's the case, he's top tier for a reason. The subject at hand relates to tournament viable characters. A ganon player can know everything there to know about MK, and if his skill level is close to a MK, they will still lose the match 9 times out of 10. Ganon simply isn't viable, as is about half the cast at a tournament level.

While largely true, the OP argues that MK is one of, if not the, hardest character to utilize in a tournament scenario. The example holds true, even if it's not Ganon. Take, for example, a high tier like Game and Watch. This Game and Watch player can know everything there is to know about MK, but that doesn't mean that MK doesn't still have advantages over him. It doesn't mean that those advantages are any less present.

Sure, Ganon is hardly a good pick for tournament wins, but that's not the point.

 

[1048576]

^

Playing highly punishable characters will cause you to learn more about mindgames, reading your enemy's reactions, and throwing out laggy attacks in anticipation of their moves. I don't consider myself to be particularly skilled with MK, but even I can see how spacing is a bigger part of his metagame than, say, Ike's.

One difference that other people may be able to relate to is the idea of reaching plateau's. With ike, the plateau is extremely easy to reach. Once you understand his move set and how to use them, there's not a lot of technical room to improve. Instead, the game becomes about reading reactions which is extremely hard at lower levels of play. You'll get punished and again, no matter how tight your technical skills become until you can read your enemy well.

Metaknight, on the other hand, is relatively hard to punish. Because of that, your technical skills will naturally evolve more. Spacing yourself to avoid punishment is far more practical with metaknight than with someone like Ike. Because of that, you'll naturally start using attacks in a way they won't be punished. You learn that tornado spam is highly punishable against a sharp enemy, etc. Because of that, I feel metaknight is the best character to refine the technical side of brawl. Without a keen understanding of your enemy's attack patterns, one can still do reasonably well with metaknight. You're not going to be winning tournies without it, but you'll be able to place from time to time. With someone like Ike, it's simply not possible against reasonably skilled players.

Also, will everyone please stop arguing that knowledge of metaknight still puts him above low tiers? Of course that's the case, he's top tier for a reason. The subject at hand relates to tournament viable characters. A ganon player can know everything there to know about MK, and if his skill level is close to a MK, they will still lose the match 9 times out of 10. Ganon simply isn't viable, as is about half the cast at a tournament level.

Uhhh, spacing is really, really important to Ike. It's more imprtant to Ike than any other character in the game, I reckon. If you don't space well, every one of your moves gets punished. If you don't space well with MK, no matter; just push B.

There's no tech skill in brawl. Nair to CC'ed jabs is harder than anything legal you can do w/ MK. Reverse Shuttle Loop is probably his hardest tech, lol.

 

[Ebonyks]

^
With Ike, you're going to get punished a lot of the time, even if you're spacing well, depending on the match up. If you miss a smash, you're just about always going to get punished. Miss d-tilt or f-tilt? punished, depending more or less on the character for the F-tilt. Ike is simply easy to punish, even when played with a reasonable degree of technical skill.

This is where mindgames come in, and move choice becomes more important than proper spacing. If you know most moves are punishable, you're going to become far more conservative about using them. Spacing is extremely important for Ike, but it can only take you so far.

Metaknight is harder to punish though, and the punishable moments that do occur are almost always due to a player's mistake. Some are extremely basic, like screwing up b-moves. Because of that, a player can look more objectively at developing their spacing game, as opposed to Ike where his weaknesses cannot be completely eliminated through proper spacing.

Does that make my argument any clearer?

 

[1048576]

No, because well spaced fair and nair are hard to punish. Ftilt and smashes are really, well, almost gimp moves if you get my meaning. Low percent kills for opponent screw-ups. F-tilt less so because most characters have a difficult time closing the gap before the lag ends. D-tilt is just bad.

MK you can be as close or as far away as you want. If you're close, push B. If far, push A.

 

[Uffe]

If playing MK really ups your game, then sure, I'll give him a shot and then I'll continue using my main and whooping ***. Actually, I'll give the character a shot tomorrow.

 

[kailo34ce]

i still think that sky made this thread as a joke..there is no other explanation..

and playing mk only makes you better cuz it gives you an idea of what the other hundreds of mks can do right?

so banning him would save us all physical time lol

hell,the idea of a game where all the top tiers can beat eachother and the counterpick system actually works sounds pretty good right about now

they ban steroids in professional sports.and mk is steroids(making everyone better ,apparently with every character)(idk yeah its stupid)....so basically we allow steroids..he gets you wins you dont deserve alot of the time and makes everything easier,thats like the definition of roids

ban roids teehee

 

[Royale]

I actually learned how to be really aggressive with help from Meta. Which was something i didnt know how to do well until i played Meta competitively.

 

[kailo34ce]

I actually learned how to be really aggressive with help from Meta. Which was something i didnt know how to do well until i played Meta competitively.

thats one of the brawliest comments ever >_>

 

[Sky`]

i still think that sky made this thread as a joke..there is no other explanation..

and playing mk only makes you better cuz it gives you an idea of what the other hundreds of mks can do right?

so banning him would save us all physical time lol

hell,the idea of a game where all the top tiers can beat eachother and the counterpick system actually works sounds pretty good right about now

they ban steroids in professional sports.and mk is steroids(making everyone better ,apparently with every character)(idk yeah its stupid)....so basically we allow steroids..he gets you wins you dont deserve alot of the time and makes everything easier,thats like the definition of roids

ban roids teehee

I'm saying that if you played MK in tournament, you'd probably lose, only because the typical competitive player knows that matchup front and back.

so you're forced to play as a better player, to beat the best of the best, because MK is old news.

That's the Gist of what I'm trying to sai. ;3

 

[kailo34ce]

I'm saying that if you played MK in tournament, you'd probably lose, only because the typical competitive player knows that matchup front and back.

so you're forced to play as a better player, to beat the best of the best, because MK is old news.

That's the Gist of what I'm trying to sai. ;3

lol yeah dude that makes sense and you are CORRECT..

but i would prolly lose with any character i picked up is what im saying

like if a non mk player picked up mk he lose....the same way a non...toon link player would lose with toon link..idk..peach is the best

keep ice skating around with dr mario sir

;3

 

[Praxis]

I agree with the general idea; that playing MK helps you in Brawl because everyone knows how to fight you and thus you are forced to learn to maximize your options.

It makes sense; playing MK will help you to learn to make decisions better, because people know how to fight you, and you have enough options to beat everything they do, you just have to utilize them better.

However, I disagree with two things.

First, I disagree that he's UNUSUALLY beneficial. I think almost every character teaches you a different set of skills, and playing other characters will help you regardless. Some characters help your prediction game, others your defensive, others your camp, others your tech skill...playing Diddy will give you a big advantage if you ever fight a character who uses items for example because you learn to handle projectiles well w/glide toss.

In MK's case, he teaches you good decision-making skills because you have to pick the RIGHT options as your opponents know how to fight you; you can't just spam good attacks.

However, I also disagree that MK is the hardest character to win with. In SHORT TERM YES; if I fly out to a region that has never fought a Peach before, I am actually more likely to win than flying out there with a Metaknight, because people don't know the best choices to stop my options. But in long term; your region eventually learns to deal with your character if you start placing well, and if you're not MK, they may develop strong strategies that your character doesn't really have the options to deal with well.

In short; MK is hard to pick up and win in the short term, but long term, if you're not playing him you gimp your chances at winning. Does MK help you learn things? Yes, I agree; but other characters help you learn things too.

Regardless, I may start playing MK a bit more, not as a main, but for this decision making skill set I'm talking about.

 

[Dekar173]

Why does everyone seem to have been misled into believing that M2K can't handle Diddy players? The tourney where NL beat him was ages ago, and just an fyi, M2K beat him in the end. Not to mention in between then and now, I'm sure he's reanalyzed and relearned that match-up one million times over. It's his match-up now. He legally owns it and now that I've only mentioned it I owe him royalties.

 

[Hive]

also one more thing, that i thought of.... making the competitive scene more balanced isn't necessarily a good thing. its kwl that mk is helping other players/characters get experience against him and help improve their games against them, I'm not arguing that. Its also neat that mk players have large amounts of people as well so that they are sort of countered out by other mk mains (and thus the players have to improve).... however on a negative side its also not kwl that having a large amount of mk players also makes other characters unviable as well (which is bad depending on the extent (in your opinion)), and pushes more people to play him as a result. What i'm saying is if everyone played one character gameplay would be completely balanced and all the players in it would be pushed even more because all the other players have mk experience and they have to work harder to get to a competitive level above them, and so the average player skill would improve. however, everyone playing mk isn't exactly the direction we necessarily want the game to go in (imo). Now, I'm not in any way saying playing mk is bad or that that is the result , all I'm saying is that it has good and bad things attatched (even if there happens to be more good things overall).

 

[Johnny Pteran]

Johnny thinks anyone who uses a character above mid is a 'tier *****' or some nonsense like that, he's got a **** ton more issues than MK vs Falcon.

1. You still need to settle down

2. I use Falcon for fun matches, but I use plenty of other characters that include high tiers, and even Snake.

3. Don't go around saying **** when you obviously don't know anything about me. We had one argument before, and even then, all you did was prove you were a douche.