Please Consider: Ledge Grab Limit for Project M

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Now that I have your attention ...

Let's talk about planking. Planking is not a strategy. It is a stall tactic, a way for certain players to goad their opponent into making a mistake out of frustration or impatient. It is a button combination an eight-year old could input with ease and has no real disadvantages for certain characters. Specifically, if you have a tether, planking carries absolutely no risk for you but can yield ample rewards if you're willing to play the waiting game and you happen to be ahead. Hell, you can probably get a gimp out of it if you're able to goad an over-extension out of an opponent on even stocks.

Now, let's talk suggestion.

Suggestion: Code a ledge-grab limit of x per airtime

Don't tell me it does't make sense. The ledge is not a place you should want to be. "Oh no, I lost my tenuous grip on the very edge of this surface. Let me use my arbitrary ability to conjure a phantom surface in the air to jump right back up and grab it. Whew. Close one." Point being, if you're against this based on some sort of logical ground, go hang off the edge of a cliff for a few minutes while thinking about how this is a video game so your own superhuman ability to stay on a ledge for over twenty seconds need not transfer over.

To be specific: I am of the opinion that you should be able to grab the edge once per airtime, and cannot grab the edge again if you let it go until you touch the ground again. If you are hit in the air, the ledge grab ability refreshes, much like one's Up-B out of special fall.

So yeah, x = 1. Pretty harsh, but I think I may have good reasons that will convince you to at least think about it. Let's think about what sort of effect this could potentially have on the metagame.

Recovery May Become More Difficult

This is one reason we may not want to implement an LGL. You would be correct, but I would like to add: So?

I've heard complaints from a multitude of players, especially from the Melee background, about how it's too easy to recover in Project M. While I do not fully agree (better recoveries = characters can go deeper and farther out for gimps. See: Ivy, Sonic, Ike to an extent), it is true that edgeguarding in this game is for the adults, not the children. You gotta be a Marth or an Ivy or a Pit to come between a stage and a character in P:M and any change that tips the scales in favor of the edgeguarder will probably not be unwelcome, nor unbalancing.

This is ignoring the fact that most multi-step edgeguards do not involve multiple ledge-grabs. If a recovering character makes it to the ledge, the edgeguarder has likely failed and needs to return to the stage himself. The LGL does not change the ledge dynamics too much, for ledge-hops were always rather risky: If you trade during a ledge-hop, you are likely not coming back. With LGL in place, the ledge-hop becomes much more punishable, eliminates the need for the edgeguarder to hog the edge if he successful in swatting and makes the predictable ledge get-up/ ledge get-up attack / roll onto stage more favorable options, while maintaining their inherent risk of being highly punishable. In short, the actual mechanics and ledge dynamics do not change much, but the ledge becomes far more unsafe, ledge-hop trades now greatly favor the edgeguarder at mid percents and recovery takes a subtle nerf, all while making edgeguarding deeper, but not free.

In truth, multiple ledge-grabs without touching the ground do not come up at all outside of planking. While it was a huge part of both Melee and Brawl, so was imbalance. Planking does not add any depth to the game, is not strategic, and carries no inherent risks for it is scarcely punishable and against characters with poor off-stage options, planking actively shuts down a lot of options. We lose nothing of value and gain a more engaging game overall. You could say it's one of things iconic to the Smash series, but I don't think that's exactly a good thing, nor exactly true. Smash 4 is looking to eliminate planking through revised ledge invincibility mechanics, considering to be an interesting but largely positive step. (Note: Project M should absolutely not consider adopting said mechanic. Leaving aside the fact that we lack details on it, it also crimps edge-hogging which is a very precise skill far more integral to the metagame than planking.)

If you can get past the seeming 'arbitrary' nature of the single LGL - consider that we get only one non-refreshible jump in the air, one air-dodge and one recovery unless we're hit out of special fall, you start to see that it's a rather elegant solution, perhaps more so than even Smash 4's and is very much how things should have been from the beginning. Repeat after me, guys: Unless you're Bowser,

THE LEDGE IS NOT A PLACE YOU SHOULD WANT TO BE

I would very much like to hear the community's thoughts on this topic, as well as the PM:BR if they choose not to remain silent and grace this thread with their input. Discuss.

 

[USUX_LEGEND]

As long as its a limit per time you recovery to the ledge and not a limit on ledge grabs in total this would be fine. However i dont mind it as much when youre using it to stall out stuff like zeldas fireballs

 

[DrinkingFood]

Lordling, you said planking is especially good for characters with tethers. Have you considered that tethers already have a limit of 3 grabs per air time?

Also to add, the edge is still never a place you want to be. Very few characters are invulnerable the whole time while releasing and regrabbing the ledge. They can easily be poked off or pressured into moving. It sounds like you are having issues doing that. You can scare people off edges or hit them off of it directly during their stalling, wasting their double jump. But yes, being at the edge is generally safer than being completely offstage. You do realize that's the point of having the edge, right? It's a transition between the safety of the ground and the utter danger of being airborne offstage. It's supposed to be more safe. There's a reason it's called edge guarding, and that's because you're never supposed to give them the edge anyways. Even M2K, master of the edge, doesn't ledge stall until time out with either Sheik or MewTwo, two of the best ledge stallers. He stalls till he thinks he can get on stage safely. The issue is that even once you get on stage from that position, you still have a large positional disadvantage of being farther from center stage and closer to the blast zone. Not only that, but "getting back on stage safely" from the edge is not a black and white concept. It's very possible to bait your opponent from the stage (safely might I add) into thinking they are safe to land only to put yourself in a dangerous position for them immediately after in case they actually try to take the stage.

This thread is silly. The game is almost assuredly not going to see any large mechanics changes besides bug fixes and already-planned reimplementation of mechanics present in Melee. You aren't going to change anything and really don't have the merits to convince anybody that you could anyways.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Lordling, you said planking is especially good for characters with tethers. Have you considered that tethers already have a limit of 3 grabs per air time?

Also to add, the edge is still never a place you want to be. Very few characters are invulnerable the whole time while releasing and regrabbing the ledge. They can easily be poked off or pressured into moving. It sounds like you are having issues doing that. You can scare people off edges or hit them off of it directly during their stalling, wasting their double jump. But yes, being at the edge is generally safer than being completely offstage. You do realize that's the point of having the edge, right? It's a transition between the safety of the ground and the utter danger of being airborne offstage. It's supposed to be more safe. There's a reason it's called edge guarding, and that's because you're never supposed to give them the edge anyways. Even M2K, master of the edge, doesn't ledge stall until time out with either Sheik or MewTwo, two of the best ledge stallers. He stalls till he thinks he can get on stage safely. The issue is that even once you get on stage from that position, you still have a large positional disadvantage of being farther from center stage and closer to the blast zone. Not only that, but "getting back on stage safely" from the edge is not a black and white concept. It's very possible to bait your opponent from the stage (safely might I add) into thinking they are safe to land only to put yourself in a dangerous position for them immediately after in case they actually try to take the stage.

This thread is silly. The game is almost assuredly not going to see any large mechanics changes besides bug fixes and already-planned reimplementation of mechanics present in Melee. You aren't going to change anything and really don't have the merits to convince anybody that you could anyways.

That point could have been made without the last paragraph. Might I suggest laying off the ad hominem? Good suggestions can come from surprising sources. Feel free to ignore this if you think I need to prove my pedigree, but I'd urge you to consider the suggestion on its own merit before rejecting it out of hand.

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

I wouldn't be against a ledgegrab limit toggle.
But for a universal LGL that affects all players without question... I don't know how I feel about that.

 

[Pickledpotatoes]

I think a LGL could be acceptable, but 1 grab per airtime (GPA) seems a bit extreme. If there will ever be a LGL, there should be enough GPA for you to stall and wait for a safe time to get on the stage, but not enough for people to just sit there forever. Drinkingfood has a good point with just poking people off while they're planking, though.

 

[Paradoxium]

Once again, I don't run into these problems because Pikachu's thunder jolt travels down the side of stages. I will never be convinced that Pikachu is a bad character

 

[MoonlapseOpethian]

If my enemy wants to plank and think it's "safe", he's in for a rude awakening. I can projectile spam with Link, Aether with Ike, UpAir with Ganon, etc, etc, etc.

I don't get how people think planking is "safe", unless you're using a character with good ledge options like Ganon with his up Air.

 

[Paradoxium]

Planking is safe because you get invincibility when you grab the ledge, and you have some options to get back on the stage

 

[Smash John]

a grab limit honestly wouldn't be that bad of a mechanic, imo. if you're in a matchup where it's not safe, then you wouldn't be doing it anyway. if you're in a matchup where it is, then that's exactly when planking becomes a slight issue. strategic stalling such as waiting on an opponent randomly charging a smash attack on-stage or the aforementioned waiting for a zelda fireball to disappear are fine, so i wouldn't want it to interfere with those kinds of choices, but a limit of 5 or so i don't think would change the game much except for cases of intentionally trying to stall a match. ike's aether already has a limit of 5 even, so it's not currently an unheard of concept, either

 

[Prince Longstrok]

Make it so your GPA is affected by your Grade Point Average :D

For instance, I could only get 3.5 grabs per airtime, but someone who actually studies would be able to ledge stall more- it encourages kids to study in school :D

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

one grab per airtime is stupid and idiotic. I'd set the limit at like 10, to keep current strategies alive, but to also prevent from unnecessary stalling

 

[gnosis]

I honestly believe planking is underutilized solely out of a lack of patience and an overabundance of sportsmanship. If Smash, as is, became an Olympic sport I bet we'd see tons of planking.

My idea is that the invulnerability time decays with each ledgegrab within a certain time period and/or per airtime (the former is to reduce your ability to jump-waveland off to ledge to refresh it). Maybe your first 2 or 3 are fine, but by your 10th or whatever you get 0 invincibility frames. That seems like the best way to not impact anything beyond the specific abuse case of stalling on the ledge.

The issue with the OP's limit is it seems more unintuitive to me to suddenly just fall past the ledge, and such a harsh limit impacts good ol fashioned edgeguarding (dropping to refresh invincibility, repeated ledgedrop bairs with Sheik, etc.). It'd take a lot more getting used to and has a bigger impact on non-planking areas of the game than an invincibility decay.

 

[Smash John]

i feel like the timing for invincibility being constant is more important to not disrupt standard play more than grab amount. for both making use of it AND trying to punish it. suddenly falling past the ledge can already happen with certain moves so it's not like it'd introduce a completely new and horrifically game-changing mechanic

 

[gnosis]

Invuln decay gradually comes into play after repeated grabs; ledge grab limit literally deletes repeated grabs. What situations are you imagining this impacts beyond planking, and how is straight up deleting those situations less disruptive than trimming invuln time?

Also falling past a ledge in neutral without holding down is not at all comparable to falling past a ledge because you're still performing a move, like wtf.

 

[Yurya]

I wouldn't put a limit on ledge grabbing directly, but I would think reducing invincibility frames after a ledge re-grab is a good idea, if that is possible (maybe code it around actually landing onstage).

 

[popsofctown]

Nerfing strategies with no tournament victories at all is next level scrubby.

 

[Guilu]

I honestly believe planking is underutilized solely out of a lack of patience and an overabundance of sportsmanship. If Smash, as is, became an Olympic sport I bet we'd see tons of planking.

Read the rules. They usually ban "excessive stalling" techniques, mention a few examples, and leave the definition of what exactly constitutes excessive stalling to the tournament authorities. So you can get disqualified for planking. Don't take the risk.

 

[gnosis]

That's a messy way of dealing with it where it's up to subjective people's judgment. It's a band-aid, not a real solution.

 

[Deleted member]

If you're going to argue in favor of a change like this, you probably shouldn't go straight to the most extreme suggestion. Being allowed only one ledge grab before you need to touch the ground again is arbitrarily limiting and ridiculous.

 

[Smash John]

Invuln decay gradually comes into play after repeated grabs; ledge grab limit literally deletes repeated grabs. What situations are you imagining this impacts beyond planking, and how is straight up deleting those situations less disruptive than trimming invuln time?

someone comes off a ledge right now and they have a certain amount of invuln. players know the timing of the invuln so they can properly punish a wavedash onto stage and whatnot. if the invuln time was variable, it just introduces a new learning barrier that can confuse what can be punished and what can't that's different every single time someone grabs a ledge. that just seems a bit too complicated a mechanic compared to a ledge grab limit of 5, which is much more easily explained and adapted to. (5 being a completely arbitrary number just for the sake of argument)

Also falling past a ledge in neutral without holding down is not at all comparable to falling past a ledge because you're still performing a move, like wtf.

this was not what i was referring to. i was referring to moves such as tethers (limit of 3 grabs) and ike's aether (limit of 5 grabs) that already have this mechanic on them. making it universal i don't think would really change all that much. how often do you actually need to grab a ledge more than 5 times in a row when you're not intentionally stalling the match?

 

[USUX_LEGEND]

Ive decided i hate this idea now

 

[gnosis]

how often do you actually need to grab a ledge more than 5 times in a row when you're not intentionally stalling the match?

That's the thing. Invuln decay would only come into play during those times. All you have to learn is "if they're spamming ledge regrabs you can punish them", it would not impact most of the game. If you're upset about the gradation than it can just be something as simple as 'after 5 ledge grabs you have to touch the stage to gain invulnerability from the ledge', or whatever.

And the problem isn't grabbing the ledge, it's the invincibility frames you get when you grab the ledge. I think you should target what's causing the problem, it introduces the least amount of disruption in the areas you aren't meaning to effect.

 

[Smash John]

If you're upset about the gradation than it can just be something as simple as 'after 5 ledge grabs you have to touch the stage to gain invulnerability from the ledge', or whatever.

honestly, this would make me much more open to the idea. much better than an ever changing hidden number, in my opinion

 

[gnosis]

I think you're mystifying it a little, it doesn't have to be that strange, but I'm not really attached to the idea so I'm not gonna try hard to defend it. My real point is that it's the invincibility frames that's the issue, not grabbing the ledge.

 

[chaosscizzors]

the invulnerability decay idea actually sounds good imho. with techs like shino stall i can see its merit (or rather, that tech specifically).
slightly off topic question but how good is metaknight's planking now? uair is still very quick and dimensional cape still grants a lot of invulnerability frames. is there frame data on this type of thing?

 

[Guilu]

Here is a very recent example of ledge stalling used to great effect :

 

[Oro?!]

Rat didn't approach what Denti was doing in the right way. There were a plethora of things that Rat could have done in order to take the ledge from Denti. We talked about it extensively on the car ride home. Under tournament pressure, and strategies you are not used to facing, sometimes it becomes harder to think of solutions. Denti was consistently doing one of two things. He was either double jumping backwards and regrabbing ledge, or he was double jumping backwards and fairing before grabbing ledge. He occasionally changed timing on fair and would sometimes need to tether to grab ledge, which tether characters only have access to 3 tethers before touching stage.

Simply put, all Rat had to do was grab the ledge. If he threw a laser when Denti was about to jump, Denti always either faired it or avoided it and grabbed ledge. Times Denti was pressured by Rat's positioning, he sometimes got hit by the laser and a consequent Rat fsmash. All Rat really had to do was run at the ledge, turn around, and then shield. If Denti faired, then he could have wavedashed out of shield and taken the ledge. If Denti did nothing, then Rat could attack or attempt to beat Denti back to the ledge.

Once Rat is on the ledge vs a no double jump tether character, all he had to do was wait and react. He took the bait on several re-tether attempts and left the ledge when Ivysaur literally cannot attack you for re-tethering.

Tether characters can't stall for the life of them. That set is an encyclopedia on what NOT to do vs tether characters.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

I dont really know about it because ledge stalling can be fought and such... but if you really want a ledge grab limit x=1 is not an option because it reduces grab ledge, drop, double jump, aerial to edgeguard, recover to ledge options which are worth saving, so if really needed (which I don't think) it should be more than 3 (non-tetherers obiously need an advantage over tetherers), maybe around 10...

EDIT:
Son of Kratos' idea would make me top tier

 

[Kaye Cruiser]

This idea sounds like it'd be the perfect reason for me NOT to play PM anymore! =D

Seriously, no. Stop whining and get better at the game. ¦D

 

[Guilu]

Yeah, grabbing the ledge yourself is often the solution against ledge stalling. Very amusing against Jigglypuffs who are fishing for Sing as well :D

 

[Infil]

Ledge grab limit of 1 is such an extreme solution for a complete and total non-problem. This game isn't Brawl: you expose yourself way, way more when trying to do these planking strategies, and with the Melee style of movement, you can position yourself way better to punish.

Enforcing a small ledge grab limit also means characters have very little recourse after being knocked off stage. Grabbing the ledge becomes almost the worst option, because your options after are super predictable and punishable on reaction.

Tethers are pretty good and stuff, but there are ways to beat them (and it will become more reliable as people play more). I dunno, I don't get why this suggestion was even raised. Just seems like salt to me.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

We all have our scrubby moments. We should be willing to learn from them.

Thanks for the input guys. Diminishing invincibility with more ledgegrabs per airtime or LGL between 5-10 makes a lot more sense, but neither is really necessary. The ledgedrop game is a very big part of the meta and planking isn't quite as free as Denti and Rat tricked me into believing

I was mistaken and scrub. /thread

 

[Phaiyte]

I think you should stop playing Brawl. It's not a real issue in this game.

 

[MechWarriorNY]

Saw title(dafuq?) and then previous post.
"Brawl"

This is Project Melee. Who is gonna scrooge in something like this? That's asking for a lost stock in this, not a time-over win LOL

 

[SpiderMad]

Ledge invincibility is also 1 frame less than Melee (and thus 2 frames less than Brawl IIRC). Also just mentioning since you can only tether 3 times before needing to touch ground again, you can do the Hax ledge dash regrab thing with most chars as a pretty safe option to get'em refreshed.

 

[Denti]

Rat didn't approach what Denti was doing in the right way. There were a plethora of things that Rat could have done in order to take the ledge from Denti. We talked about it extensively on the car ride home. Under tournament pressure, and strategies you are not used to facing, sometimes it becomes harder to think of solutions. Denti was consistently doing one of two things. He was either double jumping backwards and regrabbing ledge, or he was double jumping backwards and fairing before grabbing ledge. He occasionally changed timing on fair and would sometimes need to tether to grab ledge, which tether characters only have access to 3 tethers before touching stage.

Simply put, all Rat had to do was grab the ledge. If he threw a laser when Denti was about to jump, Denti always either faired it or avoided it and grabbed ledge. Times Denti was pressured by Rat's positioning, he sometimes got hit by the laser and a consequent Rat fsmash. All Rat really had to do was run at the ledge, turn around, and then shield. If Denti faired, then he could have wavedashed out of shield and taken the ledge. If Denti did nothing, then Rat could attack or attempt to beat Denti back to the ledge.

Once Rat is on the ledge vs a no double jump tether character, all he had to do was wait and react. He took the bait on several re-tether attempts and left the ledge when Ivysaur literally cannot attack you for re-tethering.

Tether characters can't stall for the life of them. That set is an encyclopedia on what NOT to do vs tether characters.

Thank you.

 

[ph00tbag]

I've never considered any kind of ledge stalling to be, in and of itself broken. I do, however, think there is a certain imbalance in the forgiving windows for many ledgestall tactics, particularly in PM, when compared to the razor thin windows needed to beat them, plus the fact even then many of the tactics are, in and of themselves, mix-ups against the people attempting to counter them. This imbalance, more than any supposed "brokenness," is what I find more troublesome. It's an extreme enough difference that in many cases, a better player could conceivably fall sufficiently behind that the tactic becomes effective, but because they aren't significantly better (ie. they can't win a weighted mix-up significantly more), they succumb to the tactic.

I really think an arbitrary ledge grab limit is a bit silly. Too little, and it becomes a game of just hitting your opponent before they land on the stage enough times, and suddenly they just can't recover at all. Too much, and nothing is realistically done to prevent stalling. Lately, I've been much more a fan of invulnerability decay. Since the strength of many ledgestall tactics rely on the stalling player being invincible for a significant portion, or all, of their air time, this reduces the efficacy of the tactic by making it possible to simply attack them out of it, without needing to put oneself off-stage to beat it. It can still be risky, but it's less so than trying to edgeguard the staller, and once the invincibility wears down enough, it becomes arguably riskier to continue it.

I do think the invincibility ought to have a minimum of three to five frames, so that someone who simply has had a lengthy, and oft rebuffed, recovery, can still sweetspot the ledge and not get punished simply for being pulled into the ledge. I would also say the rate of decay oughtn't be particularly fast, simply because getting knocked away multiple times shouldn't be more punished than it already is, what with damage taken already taking its toll pretty heavily.

 

[Strong Badam]

Rat didn't approach what Denti was doing in the right way. There were a plethora of things that Rat could have done in order to take the ledge from Denti. We talked about it extensively on the car ride home. Under tournament pressure, and strategies you are not used to facing, sometimes it becomes harder to think of solutions. Denti was consistently doing one of two things. He was either double jumping backwards and regrabbing ledge, or he was double jumping backwards and fairing before grabbing ledge. He occasionally changed timing on fair and would sometimes need to tether to grab ledge, which tether characters only have access to 3 tethers before touching stage.

Simply put, all Rat had to do was grab the ledge. If he threw a laser when Denti was about to jump, Denti always either faired it or avoided it and grabbed ledge. Times Denti was pressured by Rat's positioning, he sometimes got hit by the laser and a consequent Rat fsmash. All Rat really had to do was run at the ledge, turn around, and then shield. If Denti faired, then he could have wavedashed out of shield and taken the ledge. If Denti did nothing, then Rat could attack or attempt to beat Denti back to the ledge.

Once Rat is on the ledge vs a no double jump tether character, all he had to do was wait and react. He took the bait on several re-tether attempts and left the ledge when Ivysaur literally cannot attack you for re-tethering.

Tether characters can't stall for the life of them. That set is an encyclopedia on what NOT to do vs tether characters.

Preach, brotha. Preach.

This is Project Melee.

Actually, it's Project M. :3

 

[210stuna]

This thread had some potential.

But it really didn't, and you still blew it