Pokedex Entry 16: Wario

[The Derrit]

Fatigue is pretty important actually.

Fatigue forces you to get an extra 25% or so against Wario who is both heavy and extremely mobile.
Fatigue pushes squirtles disadvantage into an even bigger one. Killing wario with a fatigued squirtle is insane. It doesn't hinder ivusaurs anti air spacing game, but it makes killing harder than ever before. Honestly the only pokemon that won't be affected that badly is Charizard, provided you save a move to K.O with.

So yeah, fatigue is important.

I don't disagree with any of this, that's all right. But what fatigue DOESN'T affect is a trainer's ability to get a pokemon switched out. It's true, it takes an extra 25 to kill, but you don't have to kill; just get wario off the side long enough to change, which only takes a well placed downthrow as squirtle, or a good uair or bthrow as ivysaur. So if you AS A TRAINER ignore fatigue, its bad news. But your opponent shouldn't rely on it as an advantage chip because any smart trainer knows to keep that from happening.

OK, so it is sorta important, but then again, waiting for fatigue to kick in is horribly unreliable. just standing there waiting for fatigue and two things can happen:

A: you get pummeled because the waiting game never works in smash (unless you have a decent projectile, which Wario doesn't have)
B: They get the ability to switch, with a fresh new Pokemon to kick your ***.

Not reliable at all.

This is what I was trying to say but said a little better.

 

[PkTrainerCris]

And also, your oponent doesnt want to fight a fatigued ivysaur... a fatigued bulletseed does even more damage than a regualr one

 

[Caasi11]

EDITS MADE

Although fatigue is a problem, that doesn't make Wario impossible to kill. The real problem is getting next to Wario to get a decent grab or smash in without eating a face full of Wario's multi-hitting D-smash and U-smash, as well as that lightspeed hammer to the face called "Wario's Side-smash".

Of course, it would be simple if we can just get above Wario, but that always poses itself a problem with Wario's bite and Wario-Cycle attacks present. Let me tell you, airborne bite attacks make it VERY hard to approach Wario with Squirtle, who's attacks rely on getting next to Wario to do some decent damage. Actually, let's focus on Squitle's match up:

Squirtle/Wario, 40:60

As you guys said before, Wario's just a better Squirtle than Squitle is. However, Wario has a B-Side which is faster than a Withdraw (but not higher priority) and is pretty hard to stop without taking a hit without using Withdraw. This also makes combos more difficult to pull off due to Wario's increased mobility on flat stages that makes approaching horizontally a pain. Then there are Wario's smashes (that I already discussed) which make tilts and grabs REALLY punishable if you don't use tilts.

How about Squitle's air game?

Annoying. Getting above Wario at double-jumped heights is hazardous due to Wario's U-air and N-air, which hit fast and could mess up an approach quickly. Plus, Wario has insane DI which makes timing attacks in the air hard, assuming that Wario doesn't counter one of your jumps with his Bite.

This all lead's up to you getting back on the ground with Wario being above you with an annoying attack: his D-air. It's basically a faster Squitle D-air, and that's NOT good. It can be preformed to make a wall of pain that can be followed by any one of Wario's other smashes (Squitle's light weight makes this all the harder).

What about Squitle's gimping ability against Wario?

It's basically the same story with Wario in the air, but off stage. Squirtle will most likely see a bike being plowed right through him if you mistime the Side-aerial, and you'll be right back to fighting Wario on stage. If you DO manage to get a good Side-aerial in BEFORE the Wario-Cycle is brought up, Wario's DI makes a comback. Unless Wario is below the stage after you hit 'em, he's coming right back on stage. That or Wario doesn't have his bike.

Avoid this match-up PLEASE.



Ivysaur/Wario, 50:50

Is this a bad matchup too?

This is much better, but not totally in her favor. Ivysaur still has to put up with the same smashes that cause problems with Squirtle, and Ivysaur doesn't have much resistance to those attacks.

However, Ivysaur has a few things to keep Wario at bay as well as give Wario some damage.

First off, Ivysaur has an occasional defense against the Wario-Cycle, Razor Leaf. Why is it "occasional"? Razor Leaf can stop the cycle and knock Wario off, allowing you to get another Razor Leaf, grab, or dash attack in while Wario gets a grip on what happens if Razor Leaf goes on a fast, straight path. Razor Leaf does have tendency to slow down and curve (and will not cause the bike to stop when hit), leaving Ivysaur defenseless against the bike that'll surely give you a nice jolt and as well as a probable attack from the side.

Secondly, Ivysaur has multi-hitting tilts, which come in handy to both cancel out Wario's dash attack, as well as keep him away. This also disjoints Ivysaur's hitbox, so if Wario does manage to get an attack in, she won't be punished as much as Squitle would.

Thirdly, Bullet Seed. Wario isn't really that light, so unless Wario is at a high percentage, he won't fly over your seeds. That is assuming if Wario is next to you, the main reason for using Bullet Seed is when Wario is spamming (or if you can predict) his D-air, and this will provide a counter as well as getting some decent damage in. This is where Wario's DI can surprisingly HELP. Why? Well, Wario can't move right out of the range of the Bullet Seed and expect to wind up next to Ivy without going far enough out in the air (and away from the stream) to make a counter attack obvious. So, this can create an opportunity to unleash a F-tilt or a Side-smash to rack up some damage. This also creates unique opportunities when Wario is trying to recover.

A fourth thing that will help Ivysaur handle Wario her B-air. It hits twice, and with a fast fall, it could set up a smash or another tilt (See the pattern of multiple hits helping you out here? ).

What about KOing Wario over the ledge?

Remember how I said Wario uses his bike to get back on stage? Remember how I said Razor leaf can STOP the Wario-Cycle? Remember how I said that Bullet Seed can cause Wario some problems due to DI? You do? Good, then you'll see what I'm getting at.

When Warios are sent over the edge, they'll most likely use the cycle, hop off it, and double jump back on stage. A possible counter to the cycle is a Razor Leaf, but the main reason for doing that is to prevent Ivy from getting stunned by the impact. Sort hopping to gain vertical range and using Bullet Seed will cause one of two things to happen: a) Wario will go for the ledge, or, b) Wario will get trapped and try to DI out of it. >_> You'll probably guess what you should do when Wario is stunned by now.

The match will go back and forth due to Wario's ground game and his ability to dodge most of Ivy's moves when he's not on his bike, and the lack of fast kill moves can cause touble for Ivy. Edge-hogging shouldn't be that much of a problem, unless you're slow at recovering.

I recommend using Ivy over Squirtle in this matchup.



That's my two copper coins on this matchup. I can’t really put anything up about Charizard since I can’t really remember the match-up quite well. Anybody wanna help me out here?

 

[PkTrainerCris]

Stuff

I agree on squirtle, but you are wrong in some points with ivy
1) You actually can make razor leaf go fast and straight, if you smash the control stick instead of tilting it you can perform the kind of razor leaf that breaks the cycle, i dont blame for not knowing it, most PTs dont
2)Bullet seed is good here because warios range is bad, so punishing witha bullet seed is not too hard
3)Fsmash is a great kill move against wario, it IS fast, but dont diminish it please
4)Overall i think its 55-45 for ivy

Great post for a smashnoob anyway

 

[The Derrit]

Squirtle/Wario, 35:65

As you guys said before, Wario's just a better Squirtle than Squitle is. However, Wario has a B-Side which is faster than a Withdraw and is pretty hard to stop without taking a hit. This also makes combos more difficult to pull off due to Wario's increased mobility on flat stages that makes approaching horizontally a pain. Then there are Wario's smashes (that I already discussed) which make tilts and grabs REALLY punishable.

You disprove your own point here. Withdraw will beat wariocycle every time, because squirtle is invincible. And this is more personal opinion but squirtle's instatilts are pretty safe regardless of how good wario's fsmash is.

How about Squitle's air game?

Annoying. Getting above Wario at double-jumped heights is hazardous due to Wario's U-air and N-air, which hit fast and could mess up an approach quickly. Plus, Wario has insane DI which makes timing attacks in the air hard, assuming that Wario doesn't counter one of your jumps with his Bite.

This all lead's up to you getting back on the ground with Wario being above you with an annoying attack: his D-air. It's basically a faster Squitle D-air, and that's NOT good. It can be preformed to make a wall of pain that can be followed by any one of Wario's other smashes (Squitle's weight makes this all the harder) How?

What about Squitle's gimping ability against Wario?

It's basically the same story with Wario in the air, but off stage. Squirtle will most likely see a bike being plowed right through him if you mistime the Side-aerial, and you'll be right back to fighting Wario on stage. If you DO manage to get a good Side-aerial in BEFORE the Wario-Cycle is brought up, Wario's DI makes a comback. Unless Wario is below the stage after you hit 'em, he's coming right back on stage. That or Wario doesn't have his bike.

You make a good point. So given that it's a weakness, don't try and gimp and you'll be perfectly fine.

Avoid this match-up PLEASE.



Ivysaur/Wario, 45:55

Is this a bad matchup too?

This is much better, but not totally in her favor. Ivysaur still has to put up with the same smashes that cause problems with Squirtle, and Ivysaur doesn't have much resistance to those attacks.

What are these smashes you speak of? There is one (MAYBE two) smashes to worry about with wario, one being fsmash and the other maybe being usmash. dsmash is kind of a joke. If blocked its ******** easy to punish and it doesn't do that much.

However, Ivysaur has a few things to keep Wario at bay as well as give Wario some damage.

First off, Ivysaur has an occasional defense against the Wario-Cycle, Razor Leaf. Why is it "occasional"? Razor Leaf can stop the cycle and knock Wario off, allowing you to get another Razor Leaf, grab, or dash attack in while Wario gets a grip on what happens if Razor Leaf goes on a fast, straight path. Razor Leaf does have tendency to slow down and curve, leaving Ivysaur defenseless against the bike that'll surely give you a nice jolt and as well as a probable attack from the side. On average its going to hit the bike. This is not a big if at all. If its not hitting on a regular basis, then I don't know how you got so bad at razor leaf.

Secondly, Ivysaur has multi-hitting tilts, which come in handy to both cancel out Wario's tilts as well as keep him away Wario uses tilts in his approach?. This also disjoints Ivysaur's hitbox, so if Wario does manage to get an attack in, she won't be punished as much as Squitle would.

Thirdly, Bullet Seed. Wario isn't really that heavy WRONG so unless Wario is at a low percentage, he's going to fly over your seeds and you'll be vulnerable. That is assuming if Wario is next to you, the main reason for using Bullet Seed is when Wario is spamming (or if you can predict) his D-air, and this will provide a counter as well as getting some decent damage in. This is where Wario's DI can surprisingly HELP. Why? Well, Wario can't move right out of the range of the Bullet Seed and expect to wind up next to Ivy. Baffling. Why not? anyone with half a mind can use the control stick subtly. Its not hard for a wario to land next to you if they so choose. So, this can create an opportunity to unleash a F-tilt or a Side-smash to rack up some damage. This also creates unique opportunities when Wario is trying to recover.

A fourth thing that will help Ivysaur handle Wario mid-air is her aerials. ItWhat's it? hits twice, and with a fast fall, it could set up a smash or another tilt (See the pattern of multiple hits helping you out here? ).

What about KOing Wario over the ledge?

Remember how I said Wario uses his bike to get back on stage? Remember how I said Razor leaf can STOP the Wario-Cycle? Remember how I said that Bullet Seed can cause Wario some problems due to DI? You do? Good, then you'll see what I'm getting at.

When Warios are sent over the edge, they'll most likely use the cycle, hop off it, and double jump back on stage. A possible counter to the cycle is a Razor Leaf, but the main reason for doing that is to prevent Ivy from getting stunned by the impact. Sort hopping and using Bullet Seed will cause one of two things to happen: a) Wario will go for the ledge, or, b) Wario will get trapped and try to DI out of it. >_> You'll probably guess what you should do when Wario is stunned by now.

Are you saying that it's a good idea to use bullet seed off the edge? Don't be silly. EDIT: I understand now what you're saying, and its pretty clever. Scratch my criticism here.

The match will go back and forth due to Wario's ground game and his ability to dodge most of Ivy's moves when he's not on his bike, and the lack of fast kill moves can cause touble for Ivy. Edge-hogging shouldn't be that much of a problem, unless you're slow at recovering.

I recommend using Ivy over Squirtle in this matchup.



That's my two copper coins on this matchup. I can’t really put anything up about Charizard since I can’t really remember the match-up quite well. Anybody wanna help me out here?

My thoughts on your thoughts.

And if you want to try and sell us with this offedge bullet seed craziness at least put up a video. I like your numbers more or less, I would say mayybe a 5 point bump up for each pkmn (50:50 ivy 40:60 squirtle) but your reasoning baffles me in many cases.

 

[Caasi11]

I agree on squirtle, but you are wrong in some points with ivy
1) You actually can make razor leaf go fast and straight, if you smash the control stick instead of tilting it you can perform the kind of razor leaf that breaks the cycle, i dont blame for not knowing it, most PTs dont
2)Bullet seed is good here because warios range is bad, so punishing witha bullet seed is not too hard
3)Fsmash is a great kill move against wario, it IS fast, but dont diminish it please
4)Overall i think its 55-45 for ivy

Great post for a smashnoob anyway

I HAVE been lurking here for a while, so don't expect me to be an overall n00b. Anyway, on to your points:

1.) I'm not sure if the speed is controllable, but I know for sure that the path is randomized. Plus, if you're being pressured (or just mess up) you can accidentally send the leaf upwards, missing the bike. Using Razor Leaf is not GUARANTEED to get Wario off his bike, so I just emphasized that point.
2.) Punishing with Bullet Seed is never really that difficult to pull off. However, if you miss, you don't want to be in the middle of Wario's smashes, do you?
3.) F-smash is a good kill move, but against somebody with good DI, you'll have to use some mindgames to hit Wario when he's coming from the air. The reason why I said "air" is that Wario will probably use his S-smash on the ground, stalemating your smash, making you resort to a tilt or a throw if you don't want to get hit. >_>
4.) OK, I guess.

You disprove your own point here. Withdraw will beat wariocycle every time, because squirtle is invincible. And this is more personal opinion but squirtle's instatilts are pretty safe regardless of how good wario's fsmash is.

Hmm, I guess you're right, but I was never really an avid Squitle tilt user, so I wouldn't know.

You make a good point. So given that it's a weakness, don't try and gimp and you'll be perfectly fine.

True, but keep an open-mind about this weakness, there may be a way around it. >_>

What are these smashes you speak of? There is one (MAYBE two) smashes to worry about with wario, one being fsmash and the other maybe being usmash. dsmash is kind of a joke. If blocked its ******** easy to punish and it doesn't do that much.

OK, the D-smash may be easy to block, but that's assuming if you're ready for it. Getting hit by it and retaliating to punish that smash usually results in a face full of Wario's S-smash, which is not good.

On average its going to hit the bike. This is not a big if at all. If its not hitting on a regular basis, then I don't know how you got so bad at razor leaf.

It will ALWAYS hit the bike, but the problem is getting the bike to stop once hit. Ivy's Razor Leaf can stop most attacks like this (Egg Roll, Rollout, Withdraw, etc.), but if the leaf does not have enough force to cancel out the attack, that attack will keep going and you'll get hit.

The bike may not be that big of a gamebreaker in a match, but it still racks up damage, which is always a factor.

Wario uses tilts in his approach?

Whoops, I meant dash attack.

WRONG

O_O CRITICAL ERROR with that sentence! What I meant to say was: Wario isn't really that light so unless Wario is at a high percentage, he won't fly over your seeds.

That sentence was had fragments I forgot to edit out, my mistake.

Baffling. Why not? anyone with half a mind can use the control stick subtly. Its not hard for a wario to land next to you if they so choose.

The reason why Wario won't be able to land next to Ivysaur is that Bullet Seed (which in my example, is still going) will cause Wario to flinch mid-air if he tries to go directly from the seed stream to Ivy. Since Wario moves drastically with his DI, he needs to be farther away from the stream in order to not accidentally DI into it. So, its not about the play's input, its Wario's DI that's affecting his approach.

What's it?

"It's" Ivy's B-air.

Are you saying that it's a good idea to use bullet seed off the edge? Don't be silly. EDIT: I understand now what you're saying, and its pretty clever. Scratch my criticism here.

To anybody else who misreads my tactic, you'll be ONSTAGE when you attempt this. Doing this offstage will certainly cost you a stock.


I'll put an edited post up in a few minutes...OK?

So, what about Charizard's match-up?

 

[Bleeper Hit]

Please tell me how squirtle/wario is 35:65 without saying "wario is a better squirtle". You have f-smash and u-air to worry about killing you. Squirtle doesn't have a range problem in this match for once and his jabs tilts outspeed most anything wario has.

 

[Caasi11]

It's now 40/60, just so you know. >_>

Anyway, by "Wario is a better Squirtle than Squitle is." I mean that Wario has an easier time getting in your face than Squitle does. There isn't a distance game in this matchup, but there is a problem with approaching from afar, both in the air and on the ground. As for Squitle's jabs, they may come out in one frame, but they won't be able to do squat when Wario is on his bike or coming in from the air. The tilts do help cope a tiny bit; but overall, Squitle doesn't hold up since he can't really KO Wario with a D-throw + gimp.

 

[The Derrit]

It's now 40/60, just so you know. >_>

Anyway, by "Wario is a better Squirtle than Squitle is." I mean that Wario has an easier time getting in your face than Squitle does. There isn't a distance game in this matchup, but there is a problem with approaching from afar, both in the air and on the ground. As for Squitle's jabs, they may come out in one frame, but they won't be able to do squat when Wario is on his bike or coming in from the air. The tilts do help cope a tiny bit; but overall, Squitle doesn't hold up since he can't really KO Wario with a D-throw + gimp.

The bite kills squirtle too. Hate the bite.

Caasi I like you just fine don't take my crits personally, I just want to make sure you become an intelligent poster for everyone's benefit

So for Charizard.. huh. iono

The first thing that comes to mind is bite sucks. again. Other than that, charizard will rarely have issues with the bike from my experience, fire/sweetspotted ftilt (someone check me on this one) kill it pretty nice like.

Charizard is big, making him a nice fat target for nair/dair/fair/everything and at low %, if you take one hit you'll likely take a few.

These are the first cons that come to mind, i don't know the matchup as well as most but from my matches with warios this is what i'm sure of. Someone else come to my aid here!

Regardless I'd say charizard w/ some sort of disadvantage from my gut instinct.

 

[PkTrainerCris]

Casii, you gotta try smashing the control stick when you want your razor leaf to hit wario and stop the bike, im pretty sure it works

 

[The Derrit]

So does anyone else have input on this matchup? If not we should move onto the next one, not to rush it but no reason to leave this up with nothing new coming in.

 

[Onxy]

It's now 40/60, just so you know. >_>

Anyway, by "Wario is a better Squirtle than STOP Squitle is." I mean that Wario has an easier time getting in your face than CALLINGSquitle does. There isn't a distance game in this matchup, but there is a problem with approaching from afar, both in the air and on the ground. As for HIMSquitle's jabs, they may come out in one frame, but they won't be able to do squat when Wario is on his bike or coming in from the air. The tilts do help cope a tiny bit; but overall, SQUITLE!Squitle doesn't hold up since he can't really KO Wario with a D-throw + gimp.

10squitles..

 

[Steeler]

uh how's rock smash match up against wario's attacks? since wario is up in your face all the time and rock smash covers a pretty huge radius...

 

[Zephramrill]

bullet seed too lol

 

[PkTrainerCris]

An squirtle's superfast jab
100-0 to PT!!!
Not really... but those attacks DO have the chance to cause wario some trouble

 

[Steeler]

i'll put up the next discussion right after this post, but that doesn't mean this discussion is "finished".

squirtle's tilts, jab, and grab beat wario's on the ground. so keep that in mind. wario will want to be in the air more often, then. i'm fine with slight disadvantage to squirtle here. this matchup is actually kind of fun because you don't have to worry about range issues or anything...just go at it.

ivysaur neutral sounds right to me. ivy's keep away game is very annoying for wario. i was under the impression that a smash razor leaf always hit wario off his bike but meh :s.

charizard. afaik, rock smash is like wario's bite, it just eats ya up with dumb priority if you are anywhere near close to it! charizard>wario offstage as well, fly super armor is sooo helpful here. the usual fair/bair/dair will work for zard. something else is that...i don't think wario can air dodge or anything for a good while after jumping off his bike. so zard could probably take advantage of that, somehow.

this matchup is all about zard's ground game vs wario's air game. zard has all the weapons he needs. utilt and usmash are both quick, powerful, disjointed, and good counters to wario's dair assault. rock smash is very quick and will limit wario's options. i would think that rock smash counters wario's bike very well. zard's grab is amazing and useful, although not quite as much as his rock and tilts/jabs. flamethrower racks up a lot of damage, but wario's mobility makes it a little difficult to land. i'd stick to using it as an aerial approach. zard's bair has more range than everything wario has in the air as well, so keep that in mind. aerial rock smash is great too, particularly as an edgeguard.

idk, you could make a case for charizard advantage.

 

[DMG]

^Until Wario airdodges through Rock Smash or your keep away move.

Charizard does not have the advantage over Wario, at best it would be even for him. The other pokemon are worse off than Charizard is, they also do not have an advantage or an even matchup.

Also, Charizard is not > Wario offstage. Wario can gimp Charizard, rarely happens the other way around.

Wario vs Squirtle: 65 : 35 Wario

Wario vs Ivy: 60 : 40 Wario

Wario vs Charizard: 60 : 40 Wario

 

[Steeler]

what will wario do to gimp charizard?

also dmg do you play any good pt's frequently? afaik, magik is the only good pt down in tx.

 

[PkTrainerCris]

LOL... dmg is a business place that went out of business here on colmbia leaving a lot of people withput job or took their money way..... anyway back on topic:
I have never seen a wario gimping zard, maybe because my lack of PT experience... but i dont think wario can totally avoid all of zards gimping options
If you airdodge rock smash or usmash, chances are that you will get hit anyways, those hitboxes linger

 

[DMG]

what will wario do to gimp charizard?

also dmg do you play any good pt's frequently? afaik, magik is the only good pt down in tx.

Ice has a pretty nice PT, I would say his best one is either Ivy or Squirtle though, not Charizard IMO.

If Charizard glides, then it would be pretty hard to gimp him but he is left open for a bit before he starts moving. Now if he doesn't have the luxury of being able to glide (Too low, Wario too close, etc.) then he is somewhat limited to his aerials. Fair works ok only if you can hit with the knockback part, otherwise Wario will take a bit of damage and probably hit you with something like clap. U can try Dair, it DOES have a deceiving hitbox, but that will miss probably more than Fair will. Airdodges can sometimes work, but Charizard's airdodge at the end lasts pretty long and he doesn't travel too fast in the air and Wario can catch up a bit.

Wario won't really gimp him much (He can, but it's more like he can put enough pressure on him offstage that a gimp is a possibility, not a likely hood). He can do that to all of PT's pokemon, but Charizard can deal with it easier I think.

Edit: as for Charizard edgeguarding, Wario can go up pretty high and avoid just about anything Charizard can throw his way. He can also airdodge through Rock Smash or just try to go above it. As for on the ground, Usmash last awhile but the hitbox doesn't reach very far horizontally, leaving Charizard open to an airdodge with Wario landing somewhat near him.

 

[Ryusuta]

Wow... how long have you guys been discussing Wario, anyway?

 

[DMG]

Wow... how long have you guys been discussing Wario, anyway?

I dunno, I remember discussing it back when I was in NY which was 3 weeks ago I think lol.

 

[Ryusuta]

Then... yeah. We should probably be moving on with the next match-up.

We've either figured the match out, or we're not going to at all for the time being.

 

[DMG]

Well we agreed on Squirtle, but not the other two. I dunno about either Charizard or Ivysaur having an advantage over Wario, but I would ask Reflex about it. He uses Wario and PT, he would know.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

OH YEAH

wtf i totally forgot.

reflex is like the only pro dude that mains both.

That's true.

Sorry, guys; didn't know that this was going on...busy with school and learning Samus.

ANYWAY

Yeah. This match is most obviously in Wario's favor for all three characters. I'm going to try and go in-depth as to why...

Squirtle. Squirtle and Wario actually more-or-less simply trade hits in the air; they both have fairly poor range, and all their aerial attempt to accomplish the same thing as their Wario/Squirtle counterpart. A big issue with this is that Wario is a fair amount heavier, which means that Squirtle loses a game of attrition. For both Wario and Squirtle, then, U-Air and U-Tilt (although the U-Tilt is a bit situational) can beat out D-Air. As a result, you should try to get Wario directly above you. You don't really lose the ground game, as Wario doesn't have moves as fast as yours there. You should be able to get off tilts here and there. Still, watch out for the F-Smash, grab, and his short-hop aerials.

Squirtle can't combo Wario as well as most characters, because Wario's retreating aerial movement is awesome. Granted, he can still do stuff, but he has to watch out.

To my knowledge, Squirtle is too short to do anything to Wario via grab-release. Plus, it's quite hard to grab a Wario. I'd say Wario's the hardest character to grab in general, but, eh...you'll want that D-Throw. Just don't make it really obvious.

Also, Waft kills at, like, 60%, even if it just got to KO potential (Half Waft, that is). Be really careful about that, because you really can't react to a move that comes out on Frame 5...

That matchup's not terrible, but it's not fun. I'd probably put it at 40-60 or 45-55.

Ivysaur. **** it all. While you've heard it a million times from people that don't know any better, this is probably the one matchup where it actually rings true; if you're off the edge, you're already dead. Wario can recover from virtually any distance. Because of that, expect a lot of attempts at Bite, F-Air, N-Air, or D-Air gimps.

One important thing; if he lands a Bite off the edge and you both start falling to your doom, DON'T PRESS ANYTHING. If that happens, he has to chew on you eight times before releasing, essentially killing both of you. Most people tend to panic, and that almost always only saves Wario. It sucks, but treat is as a Bowser-cide of sorts and don't bother trying to escape with Ivysaur, unless you're really good at pressing buttons and you can react immediately. This is probably the worst matchup of the three, so it's usually better for both of you to lose a stock and not worry about it.

As for what you can do...don't stay in place. As hard as it may be for Ivysaur, an immobile character is always easy pickings for Wario. Switch between various short-hop and full-hop aerials. Wario wants to get inside with short-hop aerials, so you have to mix it up to keep him guessing on when it's safe to come in. F-Airs and B-Airs do alright, and throw in a couple Razor Leaf attacks from time to time.

The best you can do while on the offensive is attempt to disrupt Wario's offensive game. N-Airs, B-Air -> F-Tilt, and well-timed grabs are what's going to get the damage up. If I'm not mistaken, Ivysaur cannot air-release Wario, so that's a no-go...as for a kill move, you're on your own. You're going to have to trick him with a Smash or F-Air, or U-Throw him at 170%...

Anyone with bad movement in general tends to get eaten alive by Wario (literally and figuratively). You have to mess up his rhythm and take advantage of that. STAY IN MOTION. This is not fun. I'm thinking 30-70, or even 25-75 if you want to be cynical...

Charizard. This one's annoying, too. Charizard has the issue of moving too slowly while in the air, and being a large target.

Wario is probably going to juggle you around the stage with short-hop D-Airs and N-Airs even better than Ivysaur...but at least you have decent tools to keep him from getting in. Flamethrower is a simple but nice one; just make sure you avoid his double-jump D-Airs when you do it. Because of Wario's bad range, Rock Smash is pretty viable for defense. I don't know if Charizard's N-Air works as any protection, but maybe a retreating N-Air would be decent.

One important note, especially because Charizard's grab game is so good, is the fact that you can air-release Wario from a grab. I don't have too much experience with it, but I know you can U-Tilt and U-Smash. You can probably short-hop Rock Smash, too, actually. It may be the perfect distance for a free 45%...I'll test it soon.

While that's nice to have, Wario's not just going to let you grab him. Pivot grabs are nice tools. If you can trick him into it, the Wario player's going to groan, though.

Don't shield too much, though. Wario can easily Bite most large characters, and Charizard is no exception. Sometimes throwing out a U-Tilt or U-Smash instead of shielding will allow you to counterattack the short-hop Bite you didn't see coming...it's a thought.

Focus on getting your grab when he's inside. When he's on the outside, you want to use lots of moves for spacing until you can catch him with something nice. Remember, you outrange him on the ground, so a F-Tilt or D-Tilt from time to time is something to keep in mind.

Also, Charizard has trouble getting his feet back on the stage, as always. Try not to get pushed off...

Overall, for Charizard, I'm thinking 45-65...maybe 40-60. The fact that Charizard gets thrown around so easily is a pain for me. Perhaps I simply need to work on my defense more.

 

[Steeler]

i pretty much agree with squirtle and charizard. squirtle you nailed on the head...the air game is pretty even. squirtle does better on the ground than wario, but wario is both heavier and stronger. whenever wario lands is an opportunity for a grab.

charizard has great defensive tools to use against wario. usmash comes out in maybe 5 frames by some estimates. it covers the area above charizard very nicely. utilt does the same and can work if you want to save usmash. rock smash is great against wario's range, imo it works kind of like wario's bite where you don't want to shield it and you can't spot dodge it either. but you have to be very cautious because if charizard does get put into the air, he'll have trouble getting back down. as long as charizard's feet are on the ground, he is OK. offstage, remember that fly has super armor. can charizard regrab wario from his air release?

@ dmg, charizard can also rock smash offstage if wario is pressuring him. it's an option. good point about wario recovering really high with bike.

ivysaur will always air release wario if it isn't pummeling as wario escapes, idk about follow ups there though. maybe a vine whip? i think usmash is (quite unfortunately) too slow, but i could be wrong. SH bullet seed maybe? also, how effective would uair be as a killer? it has a really nice hitbox and isn't REALLY slow.

as for stage counterpicks, would pt want to pick something with a pretty low ceiling? it'll help all three uthrows at high percent, and zard's utilt/usmash out of grab release. is uair wario's only vertical killer? either way, it seems like wario thrives on offstage gimps, and a stage like delfino could certainly help with that.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

ivysaur will always air release wario if it isn't pummeling as wario escapes, idk about follow ups there though. maybe a vine whip? i think usmash is (quite unfortunately) too slow, but i could be wrong. SH bullet seed maybe? also, how effective would uair be as a killer? it has a really nice hitbox and isn't REALLY slow.

as for stage counterpicks, would pt want to pick something with a pretty low ceiling? it'll help all three uthrows at high percent, and zard's utilt/usmash out of grab release. is uair wario's only vertical killer? either way, it seems like wario thrives on offstage gimps, and a stage like delfino could certainly help with that.

I see; my mistake. For some reason, I make this assumption that every tether grab doesn't release high. I dunno.

However, that means that U-Air is wonderful there. It's not slow by any means, and I think it would be a good follow-up. If it works, Ivysaur just got a kill move of choice; it'd do the job at 100-ish%, if not a bit lower. SH Bullet Seed would need to be tested; it could work in theory. With that, maybe the matchup just got upped to 30-70 or 35-65. A kill move does help a good deal...

As for a counterpick, low ceilings are nice. Delfino or Corneria seem smart to me..

 

[TheReflexWonder]

DOUBLE-POST FOR IMPORTANCE

Charizard does not air-release Wario. I don't know why I thought he did.

Ivysaur grab-release -> F-Air is fine enough, and I don't see why U-Air wouldn't work as a kill move at higher percents.

Changing my Ivysaur view to 35-65 and Charizard to 40-60.

 

[Steeler]

well

squirtle 4-6
charizard 4-6
ivysaur 4-6 to 35-65
trainer?? 4-6

imo

comments?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

well

squirtle 4-6
charizard 4-6
ivysaur 4-6 to 35-65
trainer?? 4-6

imo

comments?

40-60 sounds like a reasonable average.

Also, Charizard N-Air does seem like a pretty good defense against Wario when you're not doing anything in particular, or you want to avoid a U-Air (since you shift in position). It's a thought.

Also, Ivysaur can catch people will fullhop -> immediate N-Air. I didn't know that, but this seems really cool. Fullhop N-Air -> Double-jump N-Air is viable. I say this now, because I discovered this when I was fighting my older brother's Wario.

And Ivysaur F-Air is good protection against almost everything Wario has. It's tougher for Wario to gimp than I previously imagined (though not by much). I'd say it's 40-60 for all of 'em now, honestly. 45/55 for Squirtle if I'm feeling awesome.

 

[Steeler]

squirtle is indeed awesome. 45-55 for squirtle wouldn't change the average, imo. idk, it feels like squirtle's got the ground game on wario, air game is fairly even, and wario's got the offstage game.