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Pop Quiz!

Rapid_Assassin

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 8, 2005
Messages
4,163
Location
RI
--Originally posted here--

Hello, boys and girls! It's time for a pop quiz. Ready or not, here it comes.. What does it mean to mindgame someone? If this question were asked to every member of the smash community, one would only come to two conclusions: it is the most overused and misunderstood term tossed around by our members. While some have a good grasp on its meaning, others will just toss it around without a clue as to what they're talking about. While I don't intend to give anyone a lecture about what a mindgame is, I'm looking for help in how to deal with a few of the more devastating strategies before it eats away at me inside.

As my friends play me more, they've been able to dive deeper into my head, breaking down the basis of my in-game thoughts for the purpose of messing with me more. As a result, the mindgames played on me have been getting more intense, and the evil little tricks used to scare me have been getting dirtier. Now, I'm pretty much stuck, and have been out of ideas for a while. By that, I mean I've been out of ideas on how to handle this since Melee, and trying to find some way to cover it up.

I admit it, I have a fsmash problem. Want to land one on me? Just move slightly out of the way at the last possible second, and place a fsmash where you were once standing. Or, just hit me out of the air with it as I come. As a bit of a history lesson, I'm pretty sure that this was the original problem that caused me to be too afraid to take damage to ever approach my opponents. The only solutions I've had for it involve overuse of the B button: Either play a projectile spammer and never approach, or play Metaknight and tornado my opponent so much that he couldn't even roll away. Notice how neither of these solutions fully solve the problem, or work on anyone remotely competent as a substitute for not being able to effectively approach? They work some of the time on some opponents (which is more than can be said about some people's "mindgames"), but I need something that can work all of the time against all opponents. Ironically, I've been mindgamed into approaching constantly back in August because I got fsmashed too often by even thinking about mashing b for an entire match. So obviously, it's not going to work if I go back to being afraid of approaching my opponents.

I also have a shield problem. Afraid of something hitting you? Press R and the problem goes away! Unless that problem is shield breaker, a grab, eruption, or a fully charged fsmash.. Or, in some cases, a random attack that does just enough shield damage that a shield breaker or fsmash would do the shield in. It's obviously a problem when my shield gets shattered at all, but it has probably been broken more than all of yours combined. But this has been my biggest obstacle in Brawl to gaining any kind of real speed, because of how easy it is to scare me into my shield, and how easy it is to keep me on the ground for most of the match. It also looks really amusing for everyone, except for me at the time, to see me hold the shield until it breaks on its own because I got scared into it and am too scared to do anything else at the time. No, this doesn't happen starting with a full shield (though I wouldn't be surprised if it did one day), but usually with a little dot after taking damage from one shield breaker or 2 fsmashes.

Want me to stop rushing you? It's easy, just take 2 steps back, charge fsmash, or shield breaker. I'll either get hit with it, shield, spotdodge repeatedly, or run to the other end of the stage until you're done. I realize this is probably the scrubbiest problem to have, but I need help solving it. I don't need more people beating me this way (though, now you know what to do, why not?), since I have opponents who are really good at making me scared of their fsmashes and my shield breaking. So much so that I need someone to help me come up with a real solution aside from making all people want to avoid me like AIDS because I can't do anything else besides mash b and run (and this isn't a solution against these guys anyway).

As you can imagine, most people can come up with something that messes with me, but a couple have found ways to completely scare me. Everyone has probably seen the infamous shield breaking I've briefly mentioned in my previous large wall of text, but since then a different shield tease has been done to me by Cheese. He was able to hit my shield just enough times to keep it tiny for an extended period of time. During that time, he yelled at me to "watch my shield" and "don't let it break" while I ran around erratically trying to avoid him but still got scared into the shield again at predictable times to keep it going. Eventually he ended my misery each time by either really breaking the shield, scaring me into breaking it myself, or killing me. Later on, he managed to pull off 6 successful breaks in one match (yes, that's right. 6), and through a complete stroke of luck I managed to survive 3 of the hits after a shield break that were meant to do me in.

But for the next dirty trick, courtesy of Master Raven, I have a real pop quiz, for all of you. Imagine this scenario: You are a stock behind against a DK, playing a character with no projectile or way to outrange DK. You have enough damage that a fully charged DK punch would do you in, but low enough damage that you'd survive a random hit that's not the DK punch or a charged smash attack. All of a sudden, the DK runs away from you and stops. He has no reason to approach you again, since he's in the lead, and is obviously waiting for you to mess up and kill you for it. What do you do? Before you answer that, keep in mind that the DK punch (which he already has charged) would be able to super armor through any of your attacks and kill you. By the way, I failed my pop quiz. But would you be able to pass it?
 

brinboy789

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 6, 2008
Messages
2,684
Location
Suffolk, Long Island, NY
mindgame...kinda hard to explain. playing games with your opponents mind? lol

ist like...doing what your opponent doesnt think you will do, or mixing it up.

for example, your sonic and if you notice that your opponent has a habit of rolling forward, you can do dgrab. once that happens, you KNOW theyll roll forward, and you move forward and grab. do that twice in a row. now, your opponent is like OH SNAP HES PREDICTING ME after the second time, so he rolls away. you can predict this too, so you rn forward to him and grab him. mindgames is sorta like that

^^ is exactly what i did 2 days ago ^_^ lol
 

petre

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 17, 2007
Messages
1,920
Location
closest to Sterling Heights, MI on your wii foreca
Imagine this scenario: You are a stock behind against a DK, playing a character with no projectile or way to outrange DK. You have enough damage that a fully charged DK punch would do you in, but low enough damage that you'd survive a random hit that's not the DK punch or a charged smash attack. All of a sudden, the DK runs away from you and stops. He has no reason to approach you again, since he's in the lead, and is obviously waiting for you to mess up and kill you for it. What do you do? Before you answer that, keep in mind that the DK punch (which he already has charged) would be able to super armor through any of your attacks and kill you. By the way, I failed my pop quiz. But would you be able to pass it?
which character are you? then ill give an answer...
 

Tianxiazhai

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 4, 2008
Messages
285
To the beginning question.
To mindgame somebody is to make them believe you are following a set pattern and then confuse their mind by doing something completely unexpected.

Real pop quiz:
On the Dk....Hrm. I would probably Rush him and Shield.....Then pummle and throw. Rinse and repeat. I would have a pretty good chance of losing though.
 

ph00tbag

C(ϾᶘϿ)Ͻ
Joined
Mar 16, 2007
Messages
7,245
Location
NC
Well, given the time to weigh my options, I'd probably run in and shield as I got within range. I'd try to get the shield up before getting in grab range, though. That way, no matter what I tried, I'd be able to put myself in the position of the responder.

But frankly, even that is not ideal. DK is a tough wall to break if you don't have range or projectiles on him. Anything you do in such a match-up is a gamble.
 

OmegaXXII

Fire Emblem Lord/ Trophy Hunter
Joined
Jul 4, 2006
Messages
21,468
Location
Houston, Texas!
Mindgaming is a basically the series of acts of calculated psychological manipulation, especially in order to confuse or intimidate, basically what Ken does in order to draw his opponent towards him as his bait.

As for the DK pop quiz, what I would do in that situation is basically play my own mindgames on DK, meaning I wouldn't approch him at all, as that is what he wants me to do, I would basically wait until all of a sudden DK starts approaching with his fully charged DK punch, though it would probaly armor through any of my attacks I would edgeguard and make him approch me until of of a sudden, he intends to do a fully charge Smash, or DK Punch me then that would be my cue to quicklygrab him and throw him out the stage since I was basically already edgeguarding the stage.
 

Meese

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 2, 2009
Messages
73
Mindgames is being unpredictable. That is all.
As for the dk, roll??
 

POKE40

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 27, 2008
Messages
1,083
Location
♥ My post count is my age. Deal with it.
I'd stand there (assuming time is not a problem :p) and wait... you'll end up playing the stare and have physicological warfare by just staring at each other.
Will he attack?
When will he decide to stop staring?
Should I attack?
psycho stress! Thats what I call it. If you appear intimidating, approach him slowly. If he keeps his stand, he ain't afraid.
So roll! and grab. toss. and own!
and cross your fingers :urg: metaphorically of course.

or dash. jump. air dodge. shield. then dodge or grab. augh! this pop-quiz gives me the chills...
 

Crystanium

Smash Hero
Joined
Apr 28, 2008
Messages
5,921
Location
California
Mindgaming is a basically the series of acts of calculated psychological manipulation, especially in order to confuse or intimidate, basically what Ken does in order to draw his opponent towards him as his bait.
This is the most accurate definition of a mind-game. However, people seem to think that a mind-game has to be in-game, when it really doesn't.

As for the DK quiz, I'm not going to answer that, because everyone has their own ideas of what they would do in this situation, so there really isn't a right or wrong answer.
 

Rapid_Assassin

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 8, 2005
Messages
4,163
Location
RI
What about the fsmash/shielding problems? How do I get around it if I know exactly what my opponent is going to do, but he's just waiting for me to approach him first? And what is the best way to stop getting scared into my shield as the first thing to come to mind if I don't know what to do?
 

Natch

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 27, 2005
Messages
649
Location
San Diego, CA
NNID
Natch42
@Pop Quiz: You're giving us horribly limited information-I am not even sure which character I am that fits that definition.


Regardless, I wouldn't HAVE to worry about anything. Giant Punch has a lot frames before he actually hits you. I checked the DK boards; it comes out on frame 19, and the hitbox stays out until frame 22. The actual Super Armor only lasts from frames 17-20.

I can run up to DK, and stand there all day and have no fear of his Giant Punch. The average reaction time is 7 frames. I can easily shield his attack, drop my shield, then punish him.

If I want to be bold, I can choose to try an interrupt his Giant Punch before the Super Armor frames happen-I just need an attack that comes out in 9 frames or less, which is perfectly doable.

DK needs to predict your move in order to beat it out with Giant Punch, or you need to do something horribly laggy in order to get punished by it. As long as I make sure not to commit to my attacks-that is, if I run up and jump at DK with the intent to attack, he'll HAVE to start his Giant Punch well in advance if he want to counter it. I can simply choose to air-dodge and NOT attack DK like I originally intended.

Honestly, this scenario is not that difficult. There's no reason to be nervous about his charged move. You have more than enough time to react. I'd honestly be more afraid of his Dsmash-that comes out in 10 frames.

Also, to answer your question:

No tactic is 100% uncounterable. If you know what your opponent is going to do, this is huge ADVANTAGE for you. As well, Fsmashes are generally laggy. You can shield them on reaction.

Go to training mode with your friend, and stand in front of his Marth. Ask him to foward smash at random times. Try to shield it. Then, drop your shield and punish the ending lag. You have to be comfortable when you're up close to your opponent, or you'll panic every single time.
 

Sonicdahedgie

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 17, 2008
Messages
118
Location
Virginia, United States
What about the fsmash/shielding problems? How do I get around it if I know exactly what my opponent is going to do, but he's just waiting for me to approach him first? And what is the best way to stop getting scared into my shield as the first thing to come to mind if I don't know what to do?
You can activate your shield while moving, or real quickly after not moving. Run right at him, and when you know you're close enough to roll to his other side, you roll, and you can get a hit.


I honestly can't see the problem. I've gotten to the point where I can run straight at my friends and just not get hit. I can't even remeber why.
 

Kamikaze*

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 14, 2008
Messages
803
Its tricking your opponents into thinking the wrong way, or to trick them in to playing in a way they're uncomfortable with.
 

:034:

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 9, 2007
Messages
7,562
Location
Netherlands
But for the next dirty trick, courtesy of Master Raven, I have a real pop quiz, for all of you. Imagine this scenario: You are a stock behind against a DK, playing a character with no projectile or way to outrange DK. You have enough damage that a fully charged DK punch would do you in, but low enough damage that you'd survive a random hit that's not the DK punch or a charged smash attack. All of a sudden, the DK runs away from you and stops. He has no reason to approach you again, since he's in the lead, and is obviously waiting for you to mess up and kill you for it. What do you do? Before you answer that, keep in mind that the DK punch (which he already has charged) would be able to super armor through any of your attacks and kill you. By the way, I failed my pop quiz. But would you be able to pass it?
I would run up to him and then wavedash back and punish his whiffed DK punch.

Wait.
 

-Ran

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 16, 2008
Messages
3,198
Location
Baton Rouge
Vs. Dk.

Just Jab. [cancel] Super Armor doesn't kick in until frame 14 or so, if I remember for his Donkey Punch.
 

Mazaloth

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 27, 2007
Messages
759
A Mindgame is a algorithm or a approach that conditions your opponments in a particular way so that the playstyle is benefiting you.
(Conditioning)

2. Since Dk has great options when someone approaches, the tilits, Bair/Nair. And that Donkey punch doesn't make the approach anymore helpful.
Best bet is to SHAD, this will allow you a advantage over his moderate lag time in his smashes. You can then grab, or use a fast Dsmash.
 

crate

Smash Rookie
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Messages
18
Location
Oberlin, OH
If you're down by a stock and % on a DK (and by the description, you're not even a character who has a good matchup on DK I'd think), he's been outplaying you pretty badly anyway. Even if you do win this specific approach you've quite the uphill battle to win the match. Figure out why you've been losing up to this point and fix that if you want to win.

I don't know what I'd do, because the characters I play with any degree of success either have projectiles or at least as much range as DK.

For your shielding problems, try playing a higher-pressure game yourself (trying to make your opponent constantly shield), or use passive-aggressive techniques to cover you as you retreat and regroup. Use Falco's lasers to stop/hinder pressuring as you back off. Throw out aerials spaced to miss if your opponent doesn't pursue but that cover your retreat to reset the match and your shield (retreating fair with Marth, for example). If you shield a punishable attack, punish it--that takes the pressure off, lets your shield regenerate some, and gives you free damage. If you really need a breather, roll backward if you can.... Sometimes you're just seeking some option to get back to a neutral position and eliminate any momentum your opponent has.

If you go for the high-pressure option, see when shielding works for your opponent and when it doesn't, and try to apply it to your game the other way around. See how your opponents deal with repeatedly well-spaced aerials or attacks to the back of their shield and the like.

Regardless the answer is to try stuff you normally wouldn't think of and see how it works. If it doesn't work, then it doesn't work. No big deal, and you're a better player for the information. If it works, keep trying it until your opponent responds.

I'm not answering what a mindgame is because the usage of the term has made it so broad as to be meaningless. There are better, more specific terms to use in its place most of the time.
 

Aeropup

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 2, 2008
Messages
93
I don't think the DK would just throw out the giant punch as soon as you're within range, he's going to set you up for it.

So, I'd approach him safely, then try to gain the upper hand in close combat.
 

Rapid_Assassin

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 8, 2005
Messages
4,163
Location
RI
I don't think the DK would just throw out the giant punch as soon as you're within range, he's going to set you up for it.

So, I'd approach him safely, then try to gain the upper hand in close combat.
He might, you never know.
 
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