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Post the most unwinnable matchups (serious topic)

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Divinokage

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 6, 2006
Messages
16,250
Location
Montreal, Quebec
lollllllllllllllll yo peabody already did that ****


lol u right, i'm workinonit



again, i dont mean no offense, just sayin there's more to master if ganon really has the potential you think (or thought) he does
Well.. even if so, everyone in the world will fail something one way or the other and then if you get punished as Ganon, well you will die if you are off stage. I have to work on not failing stuff. When you don't fail, people die.. and when people die, I win.

I know you're not _Ryu_. It's just a joke because "The Punch" copypasta originated from _Ryu_ on Gamefaqs ^^
Ahh I see.
 

Hydro_Smasher

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 24, 2009
Messages
357
Location
Seaside, CA
Obviously this needs to be posted....

I was just wondering why Ganondorf is in the very middle of the tiers. Before I get into what I mean, allow me to first put out there that I have been playing for years, and I have watched MANY videos of the tournament masters.

My brother and I found out, through years of play, literally EVERY advanced technique in the game, except the wavedash, which we stumbled upon, but wrote off as simply hilarious. I was surprised to find that all the wacky observations we have encountered and adapted are actually defined in the glossary in the sticky topic above! Three of the particularly surprising terms that I could not believe had been widely known and utilized were the Phantom Hit (I just thought I had a glitchy game) and that effect where recovering at the right time from attacks that sent you flying results in an upward boost if you jump out/air dodge/whatever early enough (I cannot remember what it was called in the sticky), and the waveland.

Now, I have been using Ganondorf against my brother lately, and he cannot seem to beat me. We think we know why, and we think it puts Ganon at the top of the tiers. I will be brief. Ganondorf has his air forward. We call it 'The Punch.' It has that special hitbox like a sword, hence it goes right through anything except an attack with that same type of hitbox. It does 17% max, is relatively fast executing, has basically instant recovery on a barrier cancel, and is quite massive, killing at rather low percentages.

If he misses, he can just do his A punch if the opponent tries to retaliate, or shield/roll. I am telling you, Ganondorf is a crazy meat mountain who crushes bones with many attacks doing 15+%, survives to insane damages thanks to his weight, and has ridiculous horizontal recovery (Double Jump, Ganondorf Kick Down B, ANOTHER Double Jump, ARE YOU SERIOUS, Up B).

Next, check his roll. It goes like half screen. It makes him rather fast, nearly eliminating his speed problem on the ground, and a great character when it comes to the defensive game. It pretty much eliminates the need for his wavedash, which, with Ganondorf, who needs to do most of his attacking from hops, is pretty much useless already unless you are looking to smash attack. Wavesmashing, however, in my opinion, is also a bad idea, because, in the time and damage it takes you to actually land a smash, you could have just used The Punch and killed you opponent by then.

Even though he has to fight mostly in the air, 3 of his 4 air attacks are pretty fast, and are quite massive. A major advantage he has is that nearly all his attacks move the opponent considerably, and can topple him from 0%, so his opponent gets little to no counterattack opportunity.

The only explanation I can find for why he is low on the tiers is that no one has used him seriously. I think he really keeps up, if not tops, the top tier characters.

I really do not like to simply shoot my mouth, and I am not one who thinks it right to shower a character in encomium, and never actually prove anything. Is there online for this somewhere, or is that simply wishful thinking? If not, please do not yell at me and stuff until you at least check out The Punch. Goes right through projectiles, goes right through attacks, goes right through faces. Please just give Ganondorf another shot and tell me what you thnk.

Final Comment: People have a tendency to think that posts from newcomers to a board but veterans of its respective game are saying they are better than everyone else, regardles of what the post actually says. Please note that I did not say 'I am better than you' or 'Ganon is better than Fox.' I said, essentially: 'Ganon seems to be great. These are his strengths. He may top Fox. Check him out and see if you agree.' I will say, however, that I am a full master of Ganondorf.

Please give Ganondorf a second look before responding so you know where I am coming from!



Now.. enough of this! Ganon is top tier, gtfo. (I think Ganon/Roy is unwinnable for Roy. =))
I can't believe you bothered to type that out, unless it was copy pasta'd from gamefaqs.

Also, Fox v Fox 70:30
Falcon v Falcon 70:30
Falco v Falco 0:0, because nobody ever really "wins" in Flaco dittos.
 

slartibartfast42

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 29, 2006
Messages
1,490
Location
Canton, Ohio
When I made my thoughts on this I came to the conclusion that falcon, for instance, is a character that gets ***** a lot. This is because falcon is on the borderline between high and low tier, so he is often played and therefore top tiers know the matchup pretty well but he's also not good enough to keep up with the higher tier metagame. Low tiers have this factor of surprising but falcon does not have this.

So some (poundslap put the word "one" here in place of "some"... He mentions 3 matchups... >_<) of the most **** matchups for falcon are fox, jigglypuff, falcon and ntsc sheik. I would say falcon - jigglypuff is 80:20 for jigglypuff because jigglypuff smiles stupidly while she uses the backair projectile which can cut through nairs and outranges everything that falcon has. You can also combo backair, utilt, and uair into rest, a move that kills falcon at 12% and is very cheap and people who need to play gay with puff in order to have a slight chance of winning tend to suck with other characters which means they suck overall.

Then there's the (NTSC) fox vs falcon which is a 90:10 matchup for fox. If the fox is campy he can get 40% each stock with laser and then one or two nairs and then falcon is in killing range. An upsmash kills at 80%(!) which is insane. Falcon doesn't even have any projectiles with which to counter the lasers. Plus one waveshine is an instant usmash set up, every stock is an autokill and thats really some sort of cheapness and definitely unwinnable for falcon unless you're a god.

But its also interesting that we got a 100:0 matchup with sheik - falcon which is, i guess, the worst in ssbm. only because of the cheap chaingrab/jab reset into gimps, and that's why Darkrain got 4stocked by mew2king even though Darkrain is definitely the best player in the world, as anyone with eyes can see by how skillfully he plays against Hbox and M2k, he just loses because falcon gets 0-deathed by all the top tiers consistently.

What took the longest in editing this was fixing all the grammar mistakes... Poundslap I hope English wasn't your first language, otherwise you have no excuse.
 

PoundSlap

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 17, 2010
Messages
293
@slartibartfast42:
i see youre a darkrain fangirl. thats ok but keep your expectations low because darkrain is nothing special and there really are no excuses for getting 4 stocked even if you say so. that wouldnt happen to armadas falcon. apart from that, my english is excellent for a forum like this where 90% are kids that cant even stay focused on a simple topic like this and try to change objective matchups to an irrational extend only because they cant accept that their favourite players will always lose.

and kage youre terriby mistaken about what you wrote. also stop feeling superior to people you dont know. thats not a warrior would do, warriors respect their opponents. you also need to read the OP since i havent seen you posting unwinnable matchups.

on topic:

another unwinning matchup is falcon - peach (80:20 for falcon) because falcon can autocombo dthrow into knee which kills at 100%. and those 100% are easy to get if you throw out some nairs and juggle peach with uairs. the grab is also easy to get since falcon is fast. and dont forget that peach has a lot of trouble edgeguarding falcon. cheap.
 

Mooo

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 31, 2010
Messages
177
Location
Los Gatos, CA
peach dittos are 95-5 in favor of the peach that is not armada, cause they play mad cheap but armada multitasks and gets so creative and has never any luck on turnips and he doesn't sleep the night before he plays melee cause he is constantly thinking about creative and honorful ways of increasing his play. totally a cheap matchup for not armada, yet he still wins! what a beast.

no johns
 

MikeHaggarTHAKJB

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 12, 2008
Messages
3,186
Location
Göteborg, Sweden
tbh i dont think poundslap is trolling. sometimes people are just a bit stupid and hence have extreme opinions, and you have to counter their bad argumentation so they know. in the long run, it really works (ive done this with alot of people on forums)
what people are failing at now is just coming with proper counter arguments that arent stupid themselves...you just have to try harder, and better, lol.
 

PoundSlap

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 17, 2010
Messages
293
I cant be trolling since we are here in a serious topic. So and now stop the discussion about trolls and post some bad matchups and more importantly why they are so bad.
 

Yung Mei

Where all da hot anime moms at
Joined
Jul 20, 2009
Messages
5,341
Pichu Vs Sheik (a ****** could win this mu if you show them how to dthrow, ftilt and fair. It is literally the easiest mu in the game)
>MFW i lose to my friends sheik as Fox, but i **** the **** out of him with Pichu

WWWWWWWAAAAAAAAAATTTTTTT
 

G.L.

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 19, 2010
Messages
181
bowser vs sheik is pretty bad. but in the tournament viable characters, sheik- falcon or falco - falcon
 

slartibartfast42

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 29, 2006
Messages
1,490
Location
Canton, Ohio
@poundslap

1. I'm definitely male. I don't know where you're getting this "fanGIRL" shiz from.
2. " try to change objective matchups to an irrational extend only because they cant accept that their favourite players will always lose." You mean how you can't accept that Armada isn't going to place first in America with any sort of consistency?
3. lol @ Falcon peach being hard. Not like peach can chaingrab or dash attack combo him or anything. And Falcon is probably the easiest character of the high-top tiers to edgeguard, even suggesting otherwise makes me not take you seriously anymore. I actually think that this matchup is even at least, if not in peach's favor.

Anyways, what matchups would you say are good for peach? Ice Climbers? Falco?
 

Mooo

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 31, 2010
Messages
177
Location
Los Gatos, CA
Nah, ICs and Falco take NO skill whatsoever and peach cant do ****. 70-25 in IC's favor and 69-12 for Falco.
 

AXE 09

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 3, 2006
Messages
3,825
Location
Avondale, AZ
Kage is amazing for posting that lol!

And just saying as a little response in the OP... Sheik vs. Pikachu is pretty bad for Pika, but I don't think it's as bad as it is for other low tiers.
 

VA

Smash Hero
Joined
May 18, 2006
Messages
5,004
Location
Brighton, UK
lol whatever

I'd **** your **** masterhand wit my ganondorf, or zelda, or sheik or anyone.

It's just like fighting PTX in TvC.
 

Grim Tuesday

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 4, 2007
Messages
13,444
Location
Adelaide, South Australia, AUS
It's all good, I remember when the glitch was first discovered heaps of people thought he would be top tier xD

Actually, if you use a double Master Hand team in doubles and de-sync them via hit-lag/the grab attack they are ****ING BEASTLY
 

VA

Smash Hero
Joined
May 18, 2006
Messages
5,004
Location
Brighton, UK
lol heaps <3 australia

I didn't realise you could actually even kill him. I thought you had to camp him out so I dunno xD
 
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