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Potential update tomorrow

pitfall356

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And if not tomorrow, really soon! This might even be the last one for SSB4. That said, what are we all hoping for, and who wants to place any bets on changes to the large-and-in-charge Koopa King? I won't be surprised if we don't get any changes, but I'm staying hopeful! God please, no nerfs.

I'm hoping for klaw fixes, a guaranteed throw combo, and maybe some changes to FB.
 

UltimaLuminaire

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Patch notes. That's all I'd want, but that ain't happening.

There's maintenance for the 3DS and Wii U today, then, around 2PM PST we'll get our minds blown by Sakurai. When we get a date for Cloud, we'll have an answer to when the next patch for Sm4sh will hit.

Also, NAir buff hasn't been all that bad. It's been real nice, in fact. If Sakurai can give us some more small buffs here and there as new characters get released, there's plenty to be excited for. Just don't expect people like me to take it easy if he drops some kind of bomb on us, like lowering end lag across the board on Bowser's aerials ala Ike. I may not be able to post for a while due to catastrophic heart failure.

All aboard. Choo choo. :4bowser:
 
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Big Sean

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Alright completely hypothetical guesses:

  • Down Throw now kills vertically ~170%
  • Bair autocancel removed.
  • Nair shield damaged increased.
  • Firebreath damage increased.
  • Pivot grab endlag increased.
  • Klaw now works at point blank range.
  • Klaw range increased.
  • Bowsercide still completely broken.
 

Zapp Branniglenn

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I'm at a loss as to what changes Bowser could reasonably be getting. We've gotten small, insignificant buffs every one of the last four patches, and every idea that I did have was already covered. Except for the critical things like Klaw positional hitbox and Bowsercide being fixed.

I could see a buff to Fire Breath. Possibly a change to one of our throws. Despite our lack of a combo throw, our throws are still above average when you look at the whole cast. 10-12% damage output, two can kill with rage (and Bowser gets a lot of rage by virtue of being so heavy). Dthrow has no use, but it's still there for keeping F and B throws unstaled for later.

I'd like to see Uair and Bair get a landing lag reduction of about 4 frames. Bair's 40 is just excessive and is way more than Ganondorf's almost as strong Fair and Bair that have 23 and 20 respectively. Uair's 28 also bothers me because unlike Nair and Fair, Bowser's Uair is a more subtle motion of ramming his horns upward. The rest of his body isn't doing anything that would warrant such a hard landing. And finally, if they could reduce the weight based knockback of Bowser Bomb's rising hit, that would allow it to stop whiffing so often when we have rage. I've never seen Bowser whiff the falling hit because he was too close, but I often see it when he uses the move at maximum range. It's a total liability to punish with Bomb when Bowser has too much damage, and seeing this issue fixed would be a huge help.

Anyway, I'll be working on the community patch notes for all of tomorrow, so I'll let you know when/if I find something.
 
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BarSoapSoup

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As long as Bowser's funky hitboxes get fixed and reverse Fortress snaps to the ledge, then Bowser will be perfect.

Anything else I have stated I wanted would just be added sweets. I still think it'd be neat if they played with the idea of Bowser receiving slightly less damage from the back, since you know...his giant shell. :p
Not that it's necessary.
 

S_B

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There is no buff that would be as beneficial to Bowser as nerfs to ZSS/Sheik.

In my wildest dreams, I want a lag reduction on the end of FB so we can guarantee a run up Dtilt for a shield break if we position the FB correctly (and so FB will stop being such a risk-laden pile of garbage for an option in general).

But at the very least, it'd be nice if they'd sort out the Bowsercide bugginess once and for all...

Also, I hope they keep releasing Mii costumes and balance patches alongside them, or at least balance patches. Sakurai said it'll be the end of DLC at some point but they should seriously still keep releasing Mii costumes because people will buy that stuff and they can fund the continued balancing of the game.

And seriously, it's free damn money as they don't need to work on or balance new characters...
 
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Zapp Branniglenn

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The patch is not yet released at the time of this writing. But, our data-mining pals supposedly got their hands on update data. I don't know the specifics of what they're looking at because reading data files is not my forte. But they're claiming they see these changes to Bowser's Uthrow:
    • Throwbox angle 70 -> 82
    • Throwbox KBG 80 -> 155
    • Throwbox BKB 90 -> 25
    • Looping hits damage 1.0 -> 0.5
    • Looping Hits hitlag modifier 1.0x -> 0.5x
    • Final hitbox KBG 100 -> 200
    • Final hitbox BKB 0 -> 80
IF these changes are correct, Bowser's Uthrow is now deals 6% damage total instead of 10%, and major knockback differences will be immediately noticeable. Again, I'm not considering this confirmed until I see it in action, but keep an eye out on this move. I want to see people labbing out new combos tonight if it's true.
 
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S_B

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Does this mean Uthrow will now kill outright?!

EDIT: A throwbox is probably the damaging hits of the throw happening to any nearby character, derp...
 
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BarSoapSoup

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The patch is not yet released at the time of this writing. But, our data-mining pals supposedly got their hands on update data. I don't know the specifics of what they're looking at because reading data files is not my forte. But they're claiming they see these changes to Bowser's Uthrow:
    • Throwbox angle 70 -> 82
    • Throwbox KBG 80 -> 155
    • Throwbox BKB 90 -> 25
    • Looping hits damage 1.0 -> 0.5
    • Looping Hits hitlag modifier 1.0x -> 0.5x
    • Final hitbox KBG 100 -> 200
    • Final hitbox BKB 0 -> 80
IF these changes are correct, Bowser's Uthrow is now deals 6% damage total instead of 10%, and major knockback differences will be immediately noticeable. Again, I'm not considering this confirmed until I see it in action, but keep an eye out on this move. I want to see people labbing out new combos tonight if it's true.
Does this mean Bowser is getting a throw combo??
 

Zapp Branniglenn

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What is a Throwbox?

Does this mean Uthrow will now kill outright?!
The distinction was unknown to me. But I imagine throwbox is the launching portion of the throw. "Final Hitbox" refers to targets not grabbed by Bowser but are being hit by the move. In which case, the throw itself is a combo throw, and a nearby luma or doubles partner is launched farther away. Additionally, the reason for the damage decrease of 4% is because the multihits having their damage reduced from 1.0 to 0.5, and there are 8 of those hits before a 2% finisher.
 

Big Sean

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I am totally confused. It does less damage but in most ways the knockback is increased. It's not clear to me that our combo ability will be much better.
 

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base knockback decrease means at lower percents, it'll be much easier to combo with the move (similar to Luigi nerf)
knockback growth increase (similar to luigi nerf) means at higher percents the move will be more difficult/damn near impossible to combo with, which it already is. but there's a KB increase as well, which means that it's a kill throw, right?

Am I wrong? Thats an increase of 75 on that knockback growth, so SOMETHING has to be crazy now.
 
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S_B

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The distinction was unknown to me. But I imagine throwbox is the launching portion of the throw. "Final Hitbox" refers to targets not grabbed by Bowser but are being hit by the move. In which case, the throw itself is a combo throw, and a nearby luma or doubles partner is launched farther away. Additionally, the reason for the damage decrease of 4% is because the multihits having their damage reduced from 1.0 to 0.5, and there are 8 of those hits before a 2% finisher.
I'm REALLY hoping you have that backwards...

If final hitbox is the actual throw, then Uthrow is an INSANE kill throw now:
  • Final hitbox KBG 100 -> 200
  • Final hitbox BKB 0 -> 80
But if it's referring to collateral hits to nearby players, then we just got a nice buff against Lumas but not much else.

Also, the hitlag modifier is nice because it means the move will happen faster overall, which is good for doubles situations, I guess.

And can something really be a combo throw at low % and a kill throw at high %? Can KBG really do that?
 
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Zapp Branniglenn

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base knockback decrease means at lower percents, it'll be much easier to combo with the move (similar to Luigi nerf)
knockback growth increase (similar to luigi nerf) means at higher percents the move will be more difficult/damn near impossible to combo with, which it already is. but there's a KB increase as well, which means that it's a kill throw, right?

Am I wrong? Thats an increase of 75 on that knockback growth, so SOMETHING has to be crazy now.
The big change to Luigi's Dthrow was the KBG increase from 30 to 83. At 30, the move was insanely consistent at comboing at any reasonable percent. So Bowser's Uthrow failing to combo at higher percents with these numbers is an accurate assumption. But the Base decrease is also significant, probably just as significant. If Uthrow kills earlier, my guess would be because of the new KB angle.. 70 to 82. It would launch more vertically, thus more directly to the blast zone. Also, our optimal followup may no longer be Fair, but Uair or Nair.

We don't know until the patch drops. My money is on combo throw and nothing else. But it could be both that and a vertical kill throw. With all that KBG, they're still being launched by a 2% attack, so the change in KO percent may be smaller than the KB stats suggest
 
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Big Sean

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Let's say Throwbox is what we care about. For comparison, charizard's kill throw:

  • Angle 70
  • BKB 50
  • KBG 220
and Donkey Kong's Cargo Up Throw:

  • Angle 90
  • BKB 58
  • KBG 52

Our new throw

  • Angle 85
  • BKB 25
  • KBG 150

So altogether I think that what it's telling us is that we have an easier more reliable combo than we ever did at lower percentages. Possibly even uair-> nair-> whatever we want at 0% for like ~55%. It's not yet clear though if we will have that combo for longer than we ever did or shorter than we ever did. Since the angle is closer to 90 now, uair should combo more often, which is hype. I don't believe though that our throw will kill until way after charizard's kills. The charizard angle is 70 though and our angle is 85 making it better more suited for actually killing though. It's possible that the angle somewhat counteracts the fact that we don't have that much KBG compared to charizard. At the very least I suspect that we now have a kill throw on certain platforms.
 

Luig

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Remember guys, (I just wanted to drop by here because one of my friends mains bowser)
Damage has a big role in knockback.
For example, Link's up throw has a staggering 230 kbg on the last hit, much more than zard's up throw or Ness's bthrow.
However, since the launching hit only deals 3% damage, it does less knockback than those 2 examples, while still being a kill throw at around 160%.

So I'm not too sure about bowser's uthrow....
 

S_B

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And if the final hit is 2%, then this will possibly be a combo throw well into kill range for Uair...
 
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Zapp Branniglenn

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Remember guys, (I just wanted to drop by here because one of my friends mains bowser)
Damage has a big role in knockback.
For example, Link's up throw has a staggering 230 kbg on the last hit, much more than zard's up throw or Ness's bthrow.
However, since the launching hit only deals 3% damage, it does less knockback than those 2 examples, while still being a kill throw at around 160%.
Precisely.

KuroganeHammer KuroganeHammer can we get your KB calculator? We can use it to compare total KB between old and new Uthrow at specific percent ranges. Find at what point the new throw is as ineffective as the current one (thought it won't be directly comparable. Angle change is still important)

...or we could wait a few more hours for the actual patch and see for ourselves, but I literally cannot.
 
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S_B

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http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4

Oh, whoops. You edited it.

But yeah.
Still good nonetheless.
Heh, thanks for that anyway. :)

Yeah, I realized a moment later that we're talking about a 2% hit so even crazy KBG isn't going to do much.

Also, where does the final hitbox come into play? That IS talking about how hard bystanders will be hit, correct?
 

Luig

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Heh, thanks for that anyway. :)

Yeah, I realized a moment later that we're talking about a 2% hit so even crazy KBG isn't going to do much.

Also, where does the final hitbox come into play? That IS talking about how hard bystanders will be hit, correct?
I believe the final hitbox is the last hitbox that people that were grabbed will be hit with.

The throwbox is probably the one that hits bystanders.
 

S_B

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...or we could wait a few more hours for the actual patch and see for ourselves, but I literally cannot.
Me neither!

I may be going to a small tournament tonight which will be featuring the patch if it drops. Hoping they uncover some Shiek/ZSS nerfs while they're at it. ;)

At the very least, Uthrow can be renamed "The Luma F**ker" now...
 

Zapp Branniglenn

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Also, where does the final hitbox come into play? That IS talking about how hard bystanders will be hit, correct?
Yes. Or at least, I can say that the opposite does not sound correct at all. A throwbox should just be a semantic distinction. When opponents are thrown, there is no hitlag, unlike typical moves. But hitboxes that are part of a throw do have hitlag.
 

Big Sean

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S_B

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When opponents are thrown, there is no hitlag, unlike typical moves. But hitboxes that are part of a throw do have hitlag.
So wait, is the damage reduction purely talking about collateral damage, or is it actually talking about how long it takes for Uthrow to finish?

Uthrow finishing faster is a straight buff so that'd be nice...

Also, unless I misread this, Uthrow at 0% could possibly combo into Usmash on fast fallers.

Just sayin'... :smirk:

Kinda sad about no needle nerf on Shiek, but we'll see if anything else changed once the full FAF data is out...
 
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Zapp Branniglenn

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So wait, is the damage reduction purely talking about collateral damage, or is it actually talking about how long it takes for Uthrow to finish?

Uthrow finishing faster is a straight buff so that'd be nice...

Also, unless I misread this, Uthrow at 0% will probably combo into Usmash on fast fallers.

Just sayin'... :smirk:
More likely Utilt, but yes, our 8 frame jumpsquat will still be a large barrier to followups in the air, so I won't rule out the possibility of our 16 frame Usmash connecting. The shellguard should at least alleviate the possibility of them using Nair to combo break us.

The damage reduction is the multihits of Uthrow, not the final 2% hit. The multihits were 8 1% hits, now they are 8 0.5% hits according to the data.
 
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S_B

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The damage reduction is the multihits of Uthrow, not the final 2% hit. The multihits were 8 1% hits, now they are 8 0.5% hits according to the data.
Right, but is that referring to the opponent being thrown or an opponent standing nearby getting hit?

You mentioned that throws have no hitlag, yet the hitlag is being modified, sooo....

I read that as Uthrow now happens twice as fast, which is fine by me as it makes it harder to punish in doubles and a better chance of screwing with our opponent's DI.

I'm really excited to see the FAF changes....
Bowser needs a few buffs in that department.
And if Uthrow's FAF comes sooner now, then it's time to cackle like madfolk and sacrifice a goat to Sakurai...

If this does turn out to be Bowser's "hoo haa", what are we going to call it? The "Showtime"? The "Shell shock"? The "Shell whacks"? The "Spin to Win"?

(I'm kinda digging "Spin to Win", which we can also write as "Spin > Win")
 
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Zapp Branniglenn

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Right, but is that referring to the opponent being thrown or an opponent standing nearby getting hit?

You mentioned that throws have no hitlag, yet the hitlag is being modified, sooo....

I read that as Uthrow now happens twice as fast, which is fine by me as it makes it harder to punish in doubles and a better chance of screwing with our opponent's DI.
When a throw has multiple instances of damage (like our Uthrow's multiple hits), those have hitlag, and hitlag indeed has been cut in half, so you are correct in assuming Uthrow will be faster to perform overall. The animation itself is unchanged, at least as far as we know. When we mention a throw's startup, we don't count hitlag frames, so don't be confused by that. Bowser's Uthrow currently has 53 frames startup (not counting the dozens that hitlag adds). Barring changes to the move's animation speed, 53 startup should still be accurate. If a throw is just one instance of damage, there is no hitlag at all. And the final hit of throws like Uthrow have no hitlag either. That is the distinction I was making earlier.

I'll be in charge of FAF changes for characters. Several moves and animation types like landing lag cannot be found in the game's data files alone. I will report back if I find something with bowser's moves, but again, I can't do anything until the patch drops.
 

S_B

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I'll be in charge of FAF changes for characters. Several moves and animation types like landing lag cannot be found in the game's data files alone. I will report back if I find something with bowser's moves, but again, I can't do anything until the patch drops.
They just updated:
  • U-Throw
    • Throwbox angle 70 -> 82
    • Throwbox KBG 80 -> 155
    • Throwbox BKB 90 -> 25
    • Looping hits damage 1.0 -> 0.5
    • Looping Hits hitlag modifier 1.0x -> 0.5x
    • Final hitbox KBG 100 -> 200
    • Final hitbox BKB 0 -> 80
  • Endframe 68 -> 61?
The Spin to Win is REAL, folks...
 
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Big-Cat

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It'd depend on what's the best followup. If it's Up B, then it's Spin > Win.
 

S_B

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It'd depend on what's the best followup. If it's Up B, then it's Spin > Win.
I just figured you Spin, then you WIN. ;)

Also, this was said in the update thread about our UThrow:

It does less knockback than the old numbers until close to 250%, though it is at a steeper angle.
So um, yeah.....
 

KuroganeHammer

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Precisely.

KuroganeHammer KuroganeHammer can we get your KB calculator? We can use it to compare total KB between old and new Uthrow at specific percent ranges. Find at what point the new throw is as ineffective as the current one (thought it won't be directly comparable. Angle change is still important)

...or we could wait a few more hours for the actual patch and see for ourselves, but I literally cannot.
http://qldsmash.com/aeromaths2.html
 
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