Pound 4 Matchup Testing

[Sensei Seibrik]

I think everyone should post in here the specific matchups, or parts of matchups, they want me to experiment with/look into at pound 4.

That way we can have an organized way of researching this stuff, and come back from pound 4 with some concrete evidence of some sort.

Using that info we can re-evaluate the matchup ratios up until this point in the meta game.



I'll make a list here of anything I find worthwhile to research.




MK:

Recovering vs M(2)K....

 

[TlocCPU]

Offstage recovery vs top level MKs when sent out relatively horizontally. Anything you can figure out is useful. Get some friendlies with m2k

 

[Commander_Beef]

On Battlefield:
1.) Go low and upB as far as you can to where you know you'll land behind Meta Knight. They'll probably shield and then punish, but depending on our percentage, we'll still probably be on stage, and it's better than getting gimped again.
2.) When recovering high, do a fastfall down air where you'll immediately grab the ledge afterwards. Either that, or time a falling inhale for a mindgame, before you grab the ledge too.
3.) UpB literally onto a platform, as far as possible on the top or left/right platform. Depending on our current percent again...the worst Meta Knight can do is Shuttle Loop or up air.
Okay #1 and #2 can apply to any other neutral.

Those can be successful in getting back to stage without getting gimped, but it's all about mindgames here [except for successfully grabbing the ledge after recovering]...so I just enterprise during the situation when watching and predicting what Meta Knight might do.

 

[Sensei Seibrik]

you can't just go low cuz a smart MK will just grab u for scaling the level with ur up b.

 

[Commander_Beef]

you can't just go low cuz a smart MK will just grab u for scaling the level with ur up b.

Yep you're right. So it's hard even finding ways to recover right? We'll just have to see if he's even near the ledge enough...it's all about timing/predicting. You know what I mean. That's the trouble in this.

 

[Jupz]

I'd like to see how to play the Ice Climbers and Toon Link matchups especially, so can you test if Dair camping works against the Ice Climbers?

 

[AtotheZ]

you can't just go low cuz a smart MK will just grab u for scaling the level with ur up b.

Can anyone really grab his up b when scaling the stage?

 

[Jupz]

Yeah, ally's done it quite a few times, its not that hard.

 

[Sensei Seibrik]

ready for the seibrik snake trap?

It's as snake vs d3.


D3 has no jumps and scaling up b, grab, d-throw, mash jab.

D3 either chooses between Airdodge to avoid jabs, or takes the jabs cuz nothing else out speeds mashing jab.

taken jab= too far out to recover if over like 50%, get edgehogged

Airdodging puts u back into the trap being below with no jumps forced to scale with up b again, get grabbed, d-throw.

good stock

 

[smasher01]

ready for the seibrik snake trap?

It's as snake vs d3.


D3 has no jumps and scaling up b, grab, d-throw, mash jab.

D3 either chooses between Airdodge to avoid jabs, or takes the jabs cuz nothing else out speeds mashing jab.

taken jab= too far out to recover if over like 50%, get edgehogged

Airdodging puts u back into the trap being below with no jumps forced to scale with up b again, get grabbed, d-throw.

good stock

So your saying snake can grab our up-b when we try to recover vertically(Even with our invincibility) than d-throw to jab than repeat the process?

What do you mean SCALE with up b?

 

[CRASHiC]

You can grab out of invincibility. Grab beats everything if the grab is landed. I could hit you with GnW's 9 or a home run bat, but if you grabbed me at that moment, you win.
Scale as in you are recovering low, and you try to go straight up and then cancel to catch the ledge.

 

[Sensei Seibrik]

Just makin something clear.

DDD has no invincibility going up his up b, he has super armor.

invincibility can't be grabbed, IE when u come back from angel platform.

super armor can be.

 

[CRASHiC]

I thought you could grab even invincibility? hm. . the more you know.

 

[stingers]

find dr pp

play him

win

then i can copy everything you do...

 

[Sensei Seibrik]

you're talking about brawl right? who's he play?

 

[stingers]

marth

i feel like it should be easier then it actually is...

my ddd isnt nearly as good as my mk/rob though maybe i just need more experience

 

[TlocCPU]

marth

i feel like it should be easier then it actually is...

my ddd isnt nearly as good as my mk/rob though maybe i just need more experience

I should really do a writeup about Marth. A LOT of dedede's struggle against him. Of all the matchups I get asked advice about, I get asked advice about Marth the most. I play it different than any dedede period, east or west coast. I'll write something up for this too in a little while and hopefully you and others can get something out of it.

 

[stingers]

oh nice, thanks dude

 

[smasher01]

So the subject is recovering vs MK?

 

[Commander_Beef]

Yes sir it is.

 

[OMG H4X]

i played dr pepes marth at herb2. its a beast. he was like 1st or 2nd in the state at the time. i lost both rounds, but gave him a run for his money. i had mad nc kids behind us trash talking me, calling me things like f4ggot d3, but seeing i took him to last stock and high percent each time, they quickly quieted down and i got mad handshakes :D

as for recovering against mk, i guess its all just a guessing game. when recovering horizontally, i try get above meta. that way i can dair any upairs or shuttle loops. falling like youre gunna bair then turn around swallowing isnt too bad either.

 

[stingers]

wish i had seen that, could've used the knowledge x.x

 

[Sensei Seibrik]

you can't rely on dair to beat shuttle loop all the time, half the time it trades, which doesn't put you in the best position..

 

[Jdawg26]

Alright, these are all of the options I can think of for recovering against MK, and how they can be punished.

1.) Up-B and land onstage.
Punishable by: Shielding, then grab, Dsmash, Usmash, pretty much anything except maybe Fsmash. You could also get punished with a Fair or Bair on the way down.

2.) Up-B and cancel at the ledge.
Punishable by: Ledgehogging, Dsmash/Fsmash if you're predicted, Nair and the rest of his ridiculous aerials, etc.

3.) Jump to the ledge while Fairing. (If close enough)
Punishable by: Nairs and Fairs during the cooldown frames, ledgehogging, planking if they're gay as hell.

There's also the platform cancel mentioned before.

Honestly, I don't think there's a really safe way to recover against the tiny round *******... :|

 

[WingedKnight]

Anti-MK recovery is probably the best idea. And testing DAir camping's effectiveness in general. Everything's been pretty much said.

 

[smasher01]

Seems like when i go out there to d-air the Dedede 50% of the time i get f-aired back on to the stage buy him.

so use fair to recover? what do you think?

 

[Nick A]

ready for the seibrik snake trap?

It's as snake vs d3.


D3 has no jumps and scaling up b, grab, d-throw, mash jab.

D3 either chooses between Airdodge to avoid jabs, or takes the jabs cuz nothing else out speeds mashing jab.

taken jab= too far out to recover if over like 50%, get edgehogged

Airdodging puts u back into the trap being below with no jumps forced to scale with up b again, get grabbed, d-throw.

good stock

I'm having problems thinking of a realistic situation where you are below the stage against snake with no jumps.

 

[Sensei Seibrik]

Usmash spam/mix with either good ledge grab timing/single f-tilt back off stage....


You'd be surprised... It happens. Go play Afro... Or me

 

[o-Serin-o]

But Snake is a terrible character. Grab as D3, unless we trip or mess up the timing, it's bye stock or a good 80%

 

[LoganW]

how do you get them to 80?
they can airdodge through aerials can't they

 

[Commander_Beef]

I'm having problems thinking of a realistic situation where you are below the stage against snake with no jumps.

The only possible thing that you can do is UpB...so do it. If we're trying to avoid his grab in the process, I've always upB'd more the opposite way a little bit, then cancel, then fall going more to the ledge.
It looks too unrealistic, but it works, the timing and spacing may look limited, but that's the only safe way.

 

[CRASHiC]

money match ADHD, make Atomsk feel bad.

 

[Masky]

ready for the seibrik snake trap?

It's as snake vs d3.


D3 has no jumps and scaling up b, grab, d-throw, mash jab.

D3 either chooses between Airdodge to avoid jabs, or takes the jabs cuz nothing else out speeds mashing jab.

taken jab= too far out to recover if over like 50%, get edgehogged

Airdodging puts u back into the trap being below with no jumps forced to scale with up b again, get grabbed, d-throw.

good stock

you can smash DI the jab back onto the stage

 

[Sensei Seibrik]

not actually ddd can't, too fat, he'll always take all three.


me and hrnut tested this this past weekend when i showed it to him

 

[AtotheZ]

what if you smash DI down?

 

[Sensei Seibrik]

then u have to up b again? get grabbed

 

[AtotheZ]

What about up?

 

[CRASHiC]

Could we abuse our up b super armor to get past it?

 

[T3h Albino]

Can we use our up + b super armor to get past a grab?
Hmmm idk that's a tough one bro.

 

[CRASHiC]

I thought he was suppose to be mashing snake's jab in this trap.