Pound Prizes

[Tommy_G]

you see, my point is that a standard has been set for a long time. Every single smash tourney that wasn't sponsored paid people out with 100% of the entrance fee. At Pound 5 this did not happen. It broke the standard. For some reason out of no where you're saying that pound 5 is the standard and you are pretending that this is how a majority of non sponsored tournaments view the entrance fee. Which just isn't true.


So please, show me one non-sponsored tournament that didn't pay out the winners with 100% of the entrance fee.

Or a tournament that did take from the pot but didn't say it was going to in the OP

Winterfest.

I'm sure there have been others but the TOs wouldn't tell the community because they know of the reactions.

 

[GimR]

Winterfest.

I'm sure there have been other but the TOs wouldn't tell the community because they know of the reactions.

Do you think it was okay for them to do that?

 

[Eddie G]

god kingbeef...you're such a mature and respectable member of this community.
like god damn.

At least you know.

 

[GimR]

Can we all agree that if there is a possibility that money is going to be take from the entrance fee that it should at least be stated in the OP?

 

[So Fatal]

when did plank change his username ?

 

[CT Chia]

It's always been that forever

 

[So Fatal]

it's always been Tommy G? Weird

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

it's always been Tommy G? Weird

well played sir

 

[The King]

more dumb*

i don't agree with what GOD has said to/about you, but i do agree that planks still wrong here.

basically, instead of taking the 10k hit himself, he made others suffer by spreading the 10k Debt out to multiple people, thus softening the concept that Plank just used 10k of winnings to make up HIS OWN MISTAKE.

The community isn't responsible for the contracts, or deals the TO's make with the hotel. It's not even the responsibility of the community to STAY AT THAT HOTEL. Besides people stacking up in rooms, people could have decided to stay down the street AT A CHEAPER HOTEL[this place was pricey], which also screws up Plank's contract. He clearly didn't think this through enough.

There is no irony and hypocrisy. Plank's requests weren't of a normal TO's requests. At a smash tournament, you stay where you please, and you pay for the event. The entire community could've chosen to be housed instead, and this would've put plank in an even worse money situation, alot worse. It's not fair to force the community to stay at the expensive hotel just to fill plank's CONTRACTUAL needs, needs which weren't even required for this event.

Major emphasis on this. I don't think there's enough emphasis in my bones to give this quote as much as it deserves.

I won't contest that some of the blame does truly lie with the attendants who signed up for the tournament, booked rooms with Plank's hotel-affiliate knowing full-well what the TO's requests were on the front page of his thread, and still went out of their way to break his wishes with the mindset of either not caring, or not believing that they alone would really contribute much to his financial demise. Those who flat-out canceled their room reservations should shoulder even more of this blame.

However, when I say "some", what I mean is that only a small portion of that blame belongs to the community. While Plank had the potential to ink such a disastrous plan with the hotel, TO's should absolutely never follow through with it. Irregardless of what your intentions are, how the community spends it's dollar outside of the venue/entry fee is it's own damn business. A TO should *NEVER* bank on where individuals intend to appropriate their money, whether it's to food, room & board, travel, etc.

What really might have saved his financial situation (aside from just not dealing with this hotel at all) would have been being EXTREMELY explicit with the details of his contractual arrangement, even to the point of requiring a non-refundable reservation with the hotel, or required booking with his hotel to gain entry to his event. This *at least* would have been more up-front about how dire his situation was, and how badly he needed to make quota.

you see, my point is that a standard has been set for a long time. Every single smash tourney that wasn't sponsored paid people out with 100% of the entrance fee. At Pound 5 this did not happen. It broke the standard. For some reason out of no where you're saying that pound 5 is the standard and you are pretending that this is how a majority of non sponsored tournaments view the entrance fee. Which just isn't true.


So please, show me one non-sponsored tournament that didn't pay out the winners with 100% of the entrance fee.

Or a tournament that did take from the pot but didn't say it was going to in the OP

This also. As treasurer/accountant of Genesis (as well as having knowledge of every smash tournament since about 2004), EVERY tournament which was not corporate or company-sponsored and was run by competent TO's goes into it with the full intention of putting the entry fee directly towards the prize money pot, including our own.

Some tournies would simply use a venue fee to cover their costs; some would use a small venue fee and a *declared* appropriation from the entry fee pot (think $5 a person plus $1 from each entry of the singles pot or something). But for grass-roots events like this, NEVER until now would it stipulate "well, if by chance there's any money left over, you guys might actually get paid something if you win."

Intelligent TO's will budget the finances they will need to run the event, based on their estimated costs and a *reasonable* estimate for the number of entrants, and set their Venue Fee accordingly. Once that is accomplished, an entry fee is set which is customarily designated as the prize money. This is how it has always been with smash grass-roots tournies, and Pound5's stance on the matter threatens the trust & morality of this community greater than most can fathom.

 

[_Yes!_]

Yeah I don't get what Tommy G's angle is...Are we really at the risk of going to smashfests every Saturday?

 

[Laijin]

Yeah I don't get what Tommy G's angle is...Are we really at the risk of going to smashfests every Saturday?

Only if every TO makes the same mistake that was just done and learns absolutely nothing from this mistake. I think I'd have much more faith in the intelligence of this community except for some people who have posted earlier, proving to not be so intelligent(They will remain unnamed).

Learn from this mistake.
Don't let it happen it again.

 

[thumbswayup]

Calvin, the question is NOT whether or not he was morally obligated to pay. OF COURSE he was, if anyone says otherwise then I don't want to think what kind of person you are.

It comes with the terms of being a TO (TOURNAMENT OPERATOR) which means you OPERATE TORNAMENTS. And what is a TOURNAMENT? It is a competition between a large group of people for some sort of reward or prize. Considering people spent a ton of money to get here, it kind of makes sense that a tournament for a game where money is always the prize would be what the people who paid so much to enter and get there were expecting to win.

The question is whether or not he should be made to pay the winners in the future or not. This is very unfortunate. What Plank did was wrong, there's no doubt about it. But I don't know what anyone else could have done in that situation. Then again he did sort of put himself there with the mistakes he made in the planning. GOD ****ING DAMMIT I DON'T KNOW WHAT TO THINK ANYMORE

 

[Euclid]

i disagree euclid, being angry on the internet has changed many things over the past few years. for example the egyptian revolution stemmed from some people getting angry on the internet. if they can topple governments in africa, we should be able to get plank to give us 10,000 dollars

No. Not really. I'm right. But this thread will die soon anyways. Have fun in the mean time.

 

[Laijin]

No. Not really. I'm right. But this thread will die soon anyways. Have fun in the mean time.

lol I thought that 30 pages ago.
This thread won't die.
Someone completely random just finding out about this will come in, not read the thread but just the OP, and voice their opinion. Then some other people are gonna come in and start arguing again.

This will occur at least several more times until the thread is closed.
I say this since this has been the pattern of most of the thread

 

[Tommy_G]

The best comparable analogy to this whole situation is smashers are preferred stockholders to the tournaments business. The tournament needs to pay off the debt before any money goes to the stockholders. In this case, the tournament went bankrupt since expenses>revenue. The smashers would have gotten paid, but seeing as what happened, unfortunately, they get the short end and get screwed.

Is he morally bound to pay them? Sure why not. Morally bound doesn't mean anything.

Is he legally obligated to pay? Since everything was based on assumptions, no.

 

[So Fatal]

i think plank bought defense attorneys with the extra cash

 

[GimR]

No. Not really. I'm right. But this thread will die soon anyways. Have fun in the mean time.

I don't get you. People like me are trying to have a real discussion and get something out of it and all you're doing is sitting on the side lines saying, "Have fun, nothing you say matters, this is gonna blow over etc." Now I do agree that threatening each other and just throwing insults at each other will lead us no where. But what you're doing is almost as bad as what the people who are throwing insults are doing since it doesn't contribute anything. It just instigates.

Please contribute or don't say anything

 

[Laijin]

I don't get you. People like me are trying to have a real discussion and get something out of it and all you're doing is sitting on the side lines saying, "Have fun, nothing you say matters, this is gonna blow over etc." Now I do agree that threatening each other and just throwing insults at each other will lead us no where. But what you're doing is almost as bad as what the people who are throwing insults are doing since it doesn't contribute anything. It just instigates.

Please contribute or don't say anything

True. Its just the reason I agree with him is that the random insults and personal attacks seem to happen when people are discussing something they firmly believe is right. Those kinds of arguments are the most destructive.

 

[aho43]

This is the most time I've spent on smashboards in 2 years. This thread has been very entertaining. I won't defend Plank, but I will say there is a lot of holier than thou attitude in this thread. If I placed top 3 in this tourney and didn't get paid I'd be ****ing pissed. However, I don't think I'd expect the TO to fall on the sword for me. If I was really in some deep doodoo because I spent money that I didn't have yet, but I thought I was going to get, rightfully, I'd try to work something w/ the TO so they take some of the hit and I take some of the hit, and maybe figure something out for the future.

Honestly if I was the TO and was in the hole $20,000 trying to host a tourney, I'd probably do the same thing. I'd feel like a ****hole, and probably pay for Armada's + PeePee's expenses. **** the brawl players, wouldn't pay you guys ****. :D

 

[Divinokage]

On a sidenote, I don't remember ever recalling that running a smash tournament is business? I mean you are a TOURNAMENT organizer, I don't think you are supposed to make any profit or anything in the like in the first place. For a tournament, all I really want is play people and have enough TVs/compete, the rest is just a bonus, I don't really care. =P I'm pretty sure most smashers think like that.. it's about the good times.

 

[Gnes]

thats really besides the point. The results of our actions may not have been forseen, but that doesn't change the fact that people are holding plank to ridiculous moral standards and saying "should have done the right thing and payed winners and take the hit and gone 10k in debt for the communities sake"

When "the community" has its own immorality to blame for this anyway by disobeying the wishes of the TO and the law. Plank took money from the winners, the community took money from the hotel. and so a death spiral ensued.

Im not saying "two wrongs make a right" but the irony and hypocrisy is delicious.

What?!? Thats EXACTLY the point. Plank took the money because enough smashers didn't buy rooms to fulfill the contract. If he had TOLD everyone that "if we don't feel these rooms, i won't be able to payout the winners".

Then 1 or 2 things might have happened
a. Everyone buys rooms and the event ends happily ever after
b. No one goes, we all save traveling expenses and don't personally have to think about the money we would have wasted going to national smashfest

And since u want to talk about hypocrisy/irony, Ally is owed at least 1k from Plank. To add more people to the hotel rooms, it costed around 50$(what one of the receptionist told me) each person(would 4 being the initial room limit). It would take 20 people alone to "steal" from the hotel to add up to ally's winnings. Also did you ever think that some of the people that entered actually followed Plank's "advice" and didn't sneak people in. Those people also got their money stolen.

 

[En.Ee.Oh]

GIMR's sig destroyed my life.

 

[Aznseal]

40,20,10,7,5,5,3,3,1.5,1.5,1.5,1.5 or whatever it may be % of 0 is still 0.

I can throw around subjective numbers too. Say the hotel needed 200 hotel room blocks to fill. (400 smashers, 100 rooms per night, 2 nights) and they only filled 1/2.

100 unfilled rooms at $145= 14,500
+ venue fee 10,000 again another number I pulled out of my *** because we're all doing it.

24,500-21,596

If the winners want a percent, by all means take it. Its a percent of a negative number, so you'd be giving Plank money.



I love how people have brought up Plank's moral obligations but don't take responsibility for themselves.

best troll ever

 

[DJRome]

everyone thinks everyone else is a troll when they don't agree and spout nonsense. it's kind of ironic

 

[Laijin]

everyone thinks everyone else is a troll when they don't agree and spout nonsense. it's kind of ironic

haha. this is true. I think I called you a troll a few times in this thread.

Overall though. Like I said, these types of discussions are pretty destructive. I'm sure if this had not happened, everyone would be fine and dandy. Instead, everyones ripping each others throats out because they feel strongly about their opinions(which is the type of argument that is most destructive).

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

Lol, you know **** is serious when it brings ancient MD/VA legends out of hiding.

 

[Tommy_G]

best troll ever

Thank you, thank you. You're far too kind.

 

[AllyKnight]

Only way to fix Plank's mistake is by using what started it first.

Just host some regional/local tourneys with a venue that isnt expensive and use the venue money collected to pay the winners, You'll probably pay 2 players or more per tourney. I would seriously forgive you if you tried doing this atleast, I don't care if I get my money last or 3rd last. Just redeem yourself, we don't hate you. Just show us that you care in a different way other than ' sorry tourney failed, no prize bye'.

 

[t3h Icy]

I skipped about 10 pages and you guys are still discussing the same things. lol

 

[GHNeko]

I'd like to suggest that the community make community laws.

**** for TOs and players to follow so we don't end up self-destructing as a community in the end.

Things that various people who attach themselves to roles must follow, and these things aren't implied, but put out in words to be followed definately.

Like

If you're a TO, you must do a,b,c, and your tourney must state e,f,g.
If you're a player, you must do j,k,i and follow TO's rules and x,y,z.
If you're tournament is x-scale large, then it requires more info and more specifics.

**** like this.

Because despite all the **** that's going on.

EVEN AFTER this **** is resolved, unless the community seriously takes action, then this whole situation will basically be for naught. The potential to learn and grow and better the community will ultimately be wasted.

Like seriously.

And if these laws or w/e are broken, ban/softban/shun whomever broke it for the sake of preserving the community.

A lot of this **** happened because of implications and assumptions all around.


EDIT: I'd like to believe that the community is capable of doing this because if there is one thing the community can do as a whole, it's come together to screw someone in the *** if they really want to, so I'm pretty sure if community rules/laws were established and someone broke them, everyone would easily be able to ban him from everything.

pretty cool post imo

 

[AllyKnight]

dude Xavier, sorry but we get it. Your posts has been the same about 999999999999 times. We get it, move on.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

dude Xavier, sorry but we get it. Your posts has been the same about 999999999999 times. We get it, move on.

the same thing could be said about your previous post for donation tournaments. you, and everyone else have suggested the same thing 10 million times.

 

[Big_R]

The irony of this post is delicious. because the exact same thing could be said about plank in having "honor and trust" that the community wouldn't overcrowd rooms after he warned dozens of times.

but people expect plank to pay up because the community trusted him.
sweet sweet, delicious irony.

he says himself that he knows smashers to be of a certain nature. i.e. to be flaky, cram in rooms, wtc.

when you RUN the tourny you don't put urself on the line like that. he took that risk and should be at fault for it.

to expect smashers to do something they have never actually shown themselves to do is crazy. it;s the definition of crazy to do something the same way but expect different results. that's essentially what happened except there was clearly a lot more riding on this.

i just want to reiterate how plank has said a lot of negative things regarding smashers. and how he repeatdly said he "knows" such and such about smashers....

I'm not saying he's wrong. He is absolutely right. I know smashers are not to be trusted like that. But he did it anyways. He KNEW how risky it was but he did it anyways. You can say "ohh he trusted the community to help" and all that jazz, but why should he be forgiven so hastily for going against EXACTLY what he admitted HIMSELF.

The difference in this trust from Plank to the community is no one expected to be punished in the way that they were. This is unprecented.

Also this is coming from Plank, who I don't know if you know, was one of the biiiiiiigest critics of the OC3 drama. He made all kinds of posts on that subject which is a story in itself.

So in the end it comes down to history. The community has never really been trusted to have a grassroots tourny of this magnitude unless it was sponsered mlg style. Plank knew this but tried to be a hero by taking risks. He could have ran a scaled down Pound like he has shown he can but he chose to try to "go out with a bang." He certainly has...

 

[Smooth Criminal]

This is the most time I've spent on smashboards in 2 years. This thread has been very entertaining. I won't defend Plank, but I will say there is a lot of holier than thou attitude in this thread. If I placed top 3 in this tourney and didn't get paid I'd be ****ing pissed. However, I don't think I'd expect the TO to fall on the sword for me. If I was really in some deep doodoo because I spent money that I didn't have yet, but I thought I was going to get, rightfully, I'd try to work something w/ the TO so they take some of the hit and I take some of the hit, and maybe figure something out for the future.

Honestly if I was the TO and was in the hole $20,000 trying to host a tourney, I'd probably do the same thing. I'd feel like a ****hole, and probably pay for Armada's + PeePee's expenses. **** the brawl players, wouldn't pay you guys ****. :D

This.

(Sans the Brawl hate, of course. Kind of.)

And surprisingly...

Only way to fix Plank's mistake is by using what started it first.

Just host some regional/local tourneys with a venue that isnt expensive and use the venue money collected to pay the winners, You'll probably pay 2 players or more per tourney. I would seriously forgive you if you tried doing this atleast, I don't care if I get my money last or 3rd last. Just redeem yourself, we don't hate you. Just show us that you care in a different way other than ' sorry tourney failed, no prize bye'.

This.

Plank screwed up big time here. We've vilified, we've demonized and we've patronized for quite a few pages. Everyone who placed high enough deserves their money, and we know whom they should be getting it from. Why don't we try and discuss ways he can dole out reparations instead of just tearing 'em down? Helluva lot more productive if we do that rather than sit here and ***** incessantly about obligations and morality.

Smooth Criminal

 

[NeutralDamage]

Has Plank paid yet?

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

Has Plank paid yet?

LOL i love this innocent post

 

[So Fatal]

nvm about this. Im good :D

 

[Eddie G]

Sorry, I got what I paid for. What you're proposing is just a **** move. No better than the acts of the accused.

 

[The King]

What a great idea, just kick a man while he's down and **** him right into the ground. He doesn't have the money to refund right now, all you'd be doing is electronically ruining his credit to get your entry fee back.

Hell, only 22 people would even have a claim to that... Everyone else entered the tournaments they paid for, finished outside the money, and wouldn't deserve any kind of a refund anyways.

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

Brawl players are disgusting lol

With the exception of like a 100 of you.