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PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

JPOBS

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samus fair the the ledge is annoying i agree, but they usually either
-upB right away
- spot dodge
- dtilt / downsmash

and they usually will do more or less the same thing depending on their style and you percent (high percent they will downsmash for example)
just gotta figure out wat kind of style they have afterward and try to punish the NEXT thing they do, cuz yea, fair is gay i agree pp.

m2k brining mad knowledge.

after atching the lamchops vs IHSB set, chops does the "mash B" every single time and gets a punish. One time he even got a shine->bair directly out of the upB. This is going to revolutionize my vs samus play. idk how i didnt knw about this before >_>
 
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I showed you the laser thing back when you were first trying fox vs wes but wes used up b a LOT less than everyone else so it was a side thing more than a main strategy. it's been a long time though definitely.

you should tell us the WD off shine thing on peach's up B. i'm pretty sure absolutely no one knows that but the 2 of us. and vidjo, lmao.

edit: ya samus's nair is awful. it has no priority and she can't trick you because her fall speed is ****. if she goes up into you with it on a platform you can just **** her OOS. you can DI it and live to like 180. It's just not that good overall. her upair is legit though, it beats a lot of moves from below. but yeah fox/falco nair ***** samus nair pretty reliably.

edit 2: after you get samus in the air, do absolutely anything to keep her airborne. it's like establishing position against any other character where you want to keep them in a poor place so they can't fight you back, except anywhere her feet can't touch ground, samus is in a bad position. like really anywhere.
 

Dobs1007

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As a Samus main what M2k said actually is kinda true in regards to the match up. In my experience a Falco who laser camps is pretty difficult for Samus to deal with since she is limited with her approaches. I'll post a write up on some stuff when I have some free time
 

Bones0

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I like FH fairing Samus if you can get her into the air with a dair or w/e.



Edge dashes(do I call these things edge dashes or wavelands btw? always been iffy on this bs lmao)- It's not good enough to get these right anymore. I want to start reversing momentum and taking stage back with this technique. So I try to get the edge dashes which are pretty close to perfect, and my measure of that is Falco not making his airdodge noise. It has a way to go, but it's improving.

Eventually, I'd like to firstly take a note from Azen's book and edge dash Fsmash. Tons of priority out in front of him and probably protected on the vulnerable startup? That man is too smart lol. If someone is closer though, then maybe shines to whatever or jabs or killing dtilts could be favorable? Seems like there's room to experiment there.
Ledgedashes are amazing. The move I use immediately after is really just based on the opponent's spacing. If they are close to me, ledgedash -> shine is great because even if your shine misses you can just WD out and chase them down to wherever they are moving to. If they are further away I will ledgedash into a SHFFL'd nair, and any further than that I would rather just LHDL on.


Double shines- right now, this technique is comprising the majority of my effort lol. I do not naturally understand how to make my fingers do this at all, but it's been about a week of training every day for an hour or two and I think I'll have it fairly soon. My biggest problem with this technique is that it requires a ton of focus for me, so I may have to use it sparingly at first until it becomes second nature. This is only in training too, so I have a ways to go on actual application. I recognize the increasing importance this technique has though, as everyone is getting more and more adept at recognizing and exploiting the holes in Falco's shield pressure. I have to stay ahead of the game or at least on par with it in this case haha.

Double shines stuff everything that everyone tries to punish after regular shines(grabs, aerials, WDs, empty hops I guess lol). This seems like a crucial mixup because it forces your opponent to second guess all of their usually instinctual punishes OOS upon seeing a shine(most people still delay aerials such as myself so acting after the shine is more common, but that may be changing these days, I'm not really sure). The threat of this technique alone allows standard shield pressure to once again become useable, not to mention all of the regular shield pressure you can do out of double shines anyway haha.
Multishines are definitely way underused by top players. It catches a lot of OoS stuff and it still links flawlessly if you hit with either shine or if you need to WD out to punish a roll. If you are worried about them shield DI'ing away, you can compensate a little by angling the shine to move a little to the side (if you go watch Perfect Control, you can find a part where the Fox is multishining and he is sliding across the stage).


Shield drops- Not much playing around with this yet, but I'm really bad at it lmao. I'd only use it during pressure though(not out of dashes) because I'd rather not complicate my inputs any more than I think is necessary. Sometimes I can get 6ish of these in a row on my own, and sometimes my lightshield breaks while I'm wiggling it around for 5 seconds lol. This is definitely worth learning though, so once double shines are perfected I'll at least focus on this a little more.

First of all, I'd like to say that Mango didn't mean to do that shield drop in my WGF set vs him lmao. Been wanting to say that for a while now, so I hope it becomes common knowledge after this point. <.<
Anyway, shield dropping out of pressure, while I don't totally understand the frame data behind it, seems incredible and may be just the technique needed to swing the metagame towards smarter play once again(since shield pressure value, at least on platforms, would be greatly diminished). I also think that it could emphasize platform-focused play, since you can only shield drop on platforms. For Falco, this means shield pressure on platforms is less useful than before. More importantly, it means he can avoid being trapped as easily on platforms when he gets forced into shield there(either by being thrown/hit up there or by the threat of an attack when Falco is moving around). Falco could also perform very well in a platform-centric metagame due to his laser potential and control(double lasers could cover a high and low area or the important heights of a higher or level platform area that is great for control or helping Falco approach).

*This is all kinda off the top of my head, so feel free to be skeptical. I'd love to hear other ideas on what I'm saying. =)
Shield dropping is HARD as ****. It took me several months to get to where I am now (I am about as comfortable with it as I will ever be aside from a few awkward things such as wavelanding out of shield drops, and my drops to the left are tad less consistent than my drops to the right).

There is no real frame data that you have to know for shield dropping though. All you really need to know is that you are in the "pass" animation for 2 frames, so on the third frame you can do whatever you want in the air (shield drop shine comes out on frame 3 if you do it perfect, which actually is even 1 frame faster than Fox's shine OoS). The last smashfest I went to I literally just shielded on platforms at every opportunity and took my free hits as soon as anyone touched my shield. The Marth player I play all the time has actually just stopped utilting my shield from underneath completely unless he thinks it will shield poke because if it doesn't, he's just going to eat a shield drop dair into a combo. If you need inspiration to keep slaving away at practicing it, just watch this clip of me in tourney!/shamelessbragging :awesome:



(shortening is old and boring; get with the times PP sheesh)
 

Dr Peepee

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samus fair the the ledge is annoying i agree, but they usually either
-upB right away
- spot dodge
- dtilt / downsmash

and they usually will do more or less the same thing depending on their style and you percent (high percent they will downsmash for example)
just gotta figure out wat kind of style they have afterward and try to punish the NEXT thing they do, cuz yea, fair is gay i agree pp.

m2k brining mad knowledge.

after atching the lamchops vs IHSB set, chops does the "mash B" every single time and gets a punish. One time he even got a shine->bair directly out of the upB. This is going to revolutionize my vs samus play. idk how i didnt knw about this before >_>
Well I guess I should bait that stuff, but I wish I knew what to do about Fair directly. Guess I'll just bait stuff and if they shield then space Bairs. Effin weird character.

Chops is maaaad good lmao.

How come you want to learn the matchup so badly? I'd figure you'd easily simply out-skill every Samus anyways lol.
I'd like to be a well-rounded player no matter what. Getting randomed out of a tournament is how a lot of people lose, and I don't want that to happen to me if I can help it. I do not consider myself that far above everyone I play to think that I don't need to know a matchup and still beat them either. It is about being as competitively sound as possible. Plus not knowing a matchup that is kinda tough for Falco scares the crap outta me LOL.

PP is scared of Plup.
*Samus

I showed you the laser thing back when you were first trying fox vs wes but wes used up b a LOT less than everyone else so it was a side thing more than a main strategy. it's been a long time though definitely.

you should tell us the WD off shine thing on peach's up B. i'm pretty sure absolutely no one knows that but the 2 of us. and vidjo, lmao.

edit: ya samus's nair is awful. it has no priority and she can't trick you because her fall speed is ****. if she goes up into you with it on a platform you can just **** her OOS. you can DI it and live to like 180. It's just not that good overall. her upair is legit though, it beats a lot of moves from below. but yeah fox/falco nair ***** samus nair pretty reliably.

edit 2: after you get samus in the air, do absolutely anything to keep her airborne. it's like establishing position against any other character where you want to keep them in a poor place so they can't fight you back, except anywhere her feet can't touch ground, samus is in a bad position. like really anywhere.
I wonder if that rising Nair with Falco works vs Samus' like Fox's does? I'll have to test that as well....

Good post. =)

I like FH fairing Samus if you can get her into the air with a dair or w/e.





Ledgedashes are amazing. The move I use immediately after is really just based on the opponent's spacing. If they are close to me, ledgedash -> shine is great because even if your shine misses you can just WD out and chase them down to wherever they are moving to. If they are further away I will ledgedash into a SHFFL'd nair, and any further than that I would rather just LHDL on.




Multishines are definitely way underused by top players. It catches a lot of OoS stuff and it still links flawlessly if you hit with either shine or if you need to WD out to punish a roll. If you are worried about them shield DI'ing away, you can compensate a little by angling the shine to move a little to the side (if you go watch Perfect Control, you can find a part where the Fox is multishining and he is sliding across the stage).




Shield dropping is HARD as ****. It took me several months to get to where I am now (I am about as comfortable with it as I will ever be aside from a few awkward things such as wavelanding out of shield drops, and my drops to the left are tad less consistent than my drops to the right).

There is no real frame data that you have to know for shield dropping though. All you really need to know is that you are in the "pass" animation for 2 frames, so on the third frame you can do whatever you want in the air (shield drop shine comes out on frame 3 if you do it perfect, which actually is even 1 frame faster than Fox's shine OoS). The last smashfest I went to I literally just shielded on platforms at every opportunity and took my free hits as soon as anyone touched my shield. The Marth player I play all the time has actually just stopped utilting my shield from underneath completely unless he thinks it will shield poke because if it doesn't, he's just going to eat a shield drop dair into a combo. If you need inspiration to keep slaving away at practicing it, just watch this clip of me in tourney!/shamelessbragging :awesome:



(shortening is old and boring; get with the times PP sheesh)
FH Fair seems great vs Samus come to think of it........mmmyessss

Do you get hit out of edge dash Nairs ever? I'm thinking mostly in startup btw.

You can forget about me moving while shining LMAO I'll take my chances and try to go in deep when I use it for now. I know it's underused by top players but I want to do my own thing so screw whatever the other ones are doing lol. =p Puttin that theory into practice baby.

Yeah good looks on that shield drop mastering bro. Guess I'll get to work on them last haha. When I master that though.....dang lol. Any tips for how to execute the technique btw?

Shortening is legit man gtfo =p
 

Fortress | Sveet

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You can CC samus' ledgehop fair. Mostly I just shield but you could probably shine if the spacing is adequate
 

Dr Peepee

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Yeah I know you can CC but if it's spaced then you can't punish and I don't know if you can shine if they're close enough but I've tried before I think and it didn't work.

Meh I'll have to test that too lol.
 

Fortress | Sveet

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Well i know you can CC shield, so it only makes sense that you can CC shine if you time it correctly.

edit- also if you are positioned in the right spot near the edge, the samus shouldnt be able to land on the stage without being in shine range... if they go off stage as a counter, you can edgehog.
 

Dr Peepee

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Hmmm well I guess I'll look into the spacing on that. That does follow logically though haha.

What if I can't CC though? And I'll take quite a bit of damage from CC anyway I think so if I could find another alternative to CC, then I'd like to.

And that last part about making them fall off as a counter....does that mean like an invisible ceiling? I'm not sure how I'd hit that on Samus, or am I misinterpreting your statement?
 

Fortress | Sveet

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oh i mean if they fair but choose not to land on the stage

edit- yeah i think a better solution might be good. I usually just do something and CC shield if they fair me
 

Sinji

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I think what Sveet is saying is that the shine range should definitely hit samus at CC percentage at the edge, so you can edgehog after for your advantage.

Finding new ways how to **** samus. lol.
 

strawhats

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speaking of samus...Wes is going to Sudden Death in Brooklyn tomorrow...Can't wait for the Vids.
 

~Tac~

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These last couple pages have been quite the read. Learnin' and learnin'. The Samus matchup seemed strange to me as well, simply because you can't do anything with her.

I have a Samus main around here, he's pretty decent. Nothing noteworthy, though. Couple things I find to be somewhat effective against her are like:

-Ledgehop Fair onto stage: In most cases, when I can bait it out, i'll WD/land backwards to SHL. Usually that gives her just enough stun for me to get back in there and grab or dash attack. Not sure if the frames allow him a Nair after the laser, but it works most of the time if I space it right.

-Samus shields: Yeah. I got nothing. I usually just bair to the other side of shield and laser more to kill shield. It's possible to get UpB'd OoS I assume, I'm not sure. It's happened once or twice when I spaced it wrong.

-Samus' Nair: As said by everyone on the last page. It sucks. Barely trades. It's just huge has this weirdly stiff knockback. On the ground/platform, Shine OoS. In the air, well. It usually catches me off guard every time. Really frustrating. >_>

I do have trouble with Samus when she's under me on a platform though. I can't shield drop at all, so that's not an option. The Fairs give me problems, like if I jump out after one, there's always another aerial waiting when I get down. Usually Uair or Bair. They both trade with Falco's Dair if I dare attempt it. How should I escape Samus Fair > Dsmash/Dtilt traps while I'm on say...Battlefield platforms?
 

ph00tbag

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ugh, Kevin stop asking non-Samus mains for advice on the Samus match-up. You may learn how to beat 95% of Sami with that stuff, but the other 5% will obliterate you.

First off. You can't just camp Samus. Especially not as Falco. You have *** mobility, and eventually you'll have to challenge her positioning. This is misconception number one about Samus. The truth is, the best Sami don't afraid of your projectiles. If you try to kite Samus, she'll pressure you until you leave the stage, then she'll edgeguard you. Rather than do something that gets stale easily like, "playing like a *****," mix up retreating lasers, bair camping, and approaches with a variety of options.

Misconception number two is that you can bait Screw Attack by shielding.

Well, okay you can. That's one option, but then that just lets Samus mix you up. WD oos into jab shenanigans, and Falco is trapped in shield. If you had solid mobility, you could bait with DDing, but has much less margin for error with Falco.

Ultimately, you have to spend a lot of time trying to figure out how the Samus is going to respond to your jump-ins. At the same time, you don't want to show off all your tricks for baiting her responses, because then she'll know how much you know right off the bat, and it'll all be over.

Options Samus has against you on-stage:

Jab: This move won't really be used if you're on the offense, but once you're in shield, it's this move all day. You can punish it on CC, but otherwise, this move frame traps into a lot of Samus's other stuff, like her smashes and tilts. Then, once she's conditioned you to stay in shield (don't let this happen), she'll mix-up into grabs and bombs.

Ftilt: This is Samus's safest poke. It starts fast, and ends fast, and can stuff your jump-ins really effectively. CCing keeps you grounded against it, but ultimately if she's spacing it well, you won't be able to punish for it. Blocking it will mostly keep things neutral.

Utilt: This is the move that will be used to condition you into camping, because it stuffs just about everything else. If you're hit while CCing, that's a hueg combo. If you're hit in shield, that's pokes, pressure, mix-ups and traps. If you're hit in the air, that's your stock.

Dtilt: It's a bad idea to get hit by this that's all I'll say on it. I think you can CC it at some percents, but it causes instant knockdown fairly early. Shielding it close can get you a free hit, but it has really long range and amazing pushback, so don't get cocky.

Dsmash: This has really deceptive range, and it can mean your doom if you aren't keenly aware of the fact that if you think you're spacing a move so Samus can't punish, she can always WD backwards and dsmash to punish any of your jump-ins. Shielding it works, and you might be able to get a good punish off of it. I shouldn't have to explain why you never never never want to CC it.

Fsmash: I think this move is situational against Falco, but it's another jump-in and whiff punishment option, and it mixes up with dsmash to make you wonder how to DI until the last second. Like dsmash, it's unsafe on block, but you can CC it for a few percent.

Dash Attack: I know it sounds stupid, but you need to be aware of this move and the spacings it's effective at. Obviously it's super unsafe on block and CC, but if a Samus has you conditioned to jump at bad spacings, this move will knock you down, combo you, or knock you off the stage. You can't really challenge it, because at best you'll usually trade. This move will also punish you to undercommitting to your jump-ins.

Missile: Don't rely on your opponent using this, because every Samus uses it differently. Since you'll be using your laser a lot, though, most Sami will use it sparingly. Be careful, though. One missile can do a lot to punch holes in your laser game, and that can be all Samus needs to get close. You can reflect this, but that carries with it a risk, since Samus can SH dair you in the reflector lag, and at certain spacings, can just dash attack the missile, clank to cancel the dash attack, then start mixing you up. PSing the missile is usually a better option, because you can act almost instantly.

Charge Shot: I hesitate to mention this, but it's worth noting. A lot of Sami just like having the little blinking light on their gun because their opponent doesn't like it. In other words, the fact that you are rightly terrified of the fully charged beam is the primary use Sami will get out of it. Other than that, when she has it, try not to waste your second jump ever, and just... be unpredictable. Mostly, the charge shot is used for punishes. Throwing it into combos is flashy and cool, and fun, but most Sami won't be pre-occupied with that. Also, be aware of uncharged shots, and don't let them catch you off guard. It's rare to see, but some Sami will troll you with it to see how you react.

Screw Attack: You are right to be terrified of this move. Honestly, Falco has no hard and fast option against it. Even those double shines you touted a few pages back tremble in the face of this move's might. You can bait it with a number of options, but that just lets Samus start poking you if she catches wise. Note that you don't even have to hit Samus's shield for this move to be useful--she can preempt any jump-in (including empty shffls) and beat it outright. I'm not going to sit here and enumerate all of the options I think you have here. You could do that better than I ever could. Just know that you'll need all of them.

Bomb: This move is weird. It's really punishable if Samus spaces it wrong, but it has some rewards that aren't readily apparent. Basically, if you commit to a jump-in on a properly spaced bomb, you lose the attack, and Samus starts mixing you up. If you undercommit, you get dsmashed. Alternately, if Samus catches you in shield with this move, she has a huge block advantage, because this move has two or three hitboxes with pretty good stun, and she can do anything out of the very first of those. It's also a projectile. In other words, if Samus bombs you, you want to stay in shield. Full Jumping can give you more space, but it's kinda telegraphed.

Nair: This move is best once you're conditioned to block. Samus will jump in, you'll block, then you'll wait an eternity before Samus finally slips that nair in on you just before landing. It's more a gimmick than anything. Usmash out of shield. You aren't Fox, but you still have a teensy bit of head invincibility. That plus CCing should be enough.

Dair: Surprisingly good spacer. Can't be CC'd. But it's pretty easy to see coming, like any of Samus's aerials.

Fair: Just CC this if you're on the ground at low percents. You can shine Samus for her troubles. Otherwise, this is the staple for making you afraid of full jumping, and taking to platforms. If you can bait it out, though, congrats. You've got Samus in the air. If you fail to CC this, you will get mixed up between jab, dtilt, dsmash, spot-dodge, or Screw Attack.

Bair: Midair spacer. Effectively, it's like a mid-air ftilt, just with KO-potential.

Uair: With fair, this move keeps you off platforms, and scares you out of full jumping. It's also a good combo move, and a full jump uair can be followed up with a missile to scare you into using your double jump. Other than that, just CC it.

Grab: Once Samus has you conditioned to shield everything, she'll start grabbing you. This leads to combos, tech-chases and edgeguards. ALWAYS be on the lookout. Fortunately for you, Samus waves her gun around in the air like a madwoman every time she standing grabs, so you can just spot dodge that bull and punish. Dash grab is faster, though. When Samus is running, she can dash attack if you try to jump, dash grab if you stay in shield, or CC fsmash if you spot-dodge or roll. If she's got a missile, and you can't PS it, she has even more options.

That should just about cover the on-stage part of the match-up. Hopefully, this kind of thing is something you'll find useful.

When you're edgeguarding Samus, a few things to keep in mind:

-You can snipe her bombs to nerf her bomb recovery.

-You can punish Samus for grappling. But be careful; she'll mix up the timing.

-Dsmash is really effective. But don't overuse it, or you'll get a ledgetech -> charge shot for your trouble.

-Colbol was reflecting Samus's bombs while she was recovering against Plup at Advent. Sometimes it worked and sometimes it didn't. Try to see what Falco might be able to do with this.

-Samus's no impact landing occurs very close to her ledge grab when timed properly. It's something of an ambiguous mix-up, so be mind-ful, and base your predictions off prior knowledge than on what it looks like.

-Samus has a stellar waveland. Be advised.

-CC her aerials until you can't CC anything.

When you're recovering:

Laugh at how bad Falco's recovery is.

NEVER GIVE UP AND BELIEVE IN YOURSELF!!!! (Okay that's a lie. Your stock is over.)
 

Dr Peepee

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That one about the no impact landing is hard for me to understand....

And would you say IHSB didn't handle Chops' laser game well since Samus isn't/shouldn't be afraid of them, or did he just not punish hard enough when he did get a hit?

Also when you say "snipe" bombs do you mean I can laser them and they explode? I didn't think it worked like that so I feel like I'm misreading.

I'm legitimately surprised that up-B OOS beats double shine. That gives me a fair amount of respect for that move and I'll be sure to plan around the technique accordingly now.
 
D

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kevin I have some ideas on how you can improve your improvements, but they're secret pro status. IM me and we'll go over them in private. I got the good ****, I promise.
 

~Tac~

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Oh wow, ph00t. I think I may be saving this here for studying.

@PP By sniping offstage, I believe what was meant is lasering Samus while she bombjumps disrupts the timing and gets her to lose slight altitude and stops momentum. Unless I'm misunderstanding too. Because I'm pretty sure Samus' bombs only explode to bodies and Link bombs.
 

ph00tbag

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That one about the no impact landing is hard for me to understand....
Basically, when Samus is ledge-hopping, the lowest point she can jump to and still land on the stage at the peak of her jump is very close to the highest point she can jump to and grab the ledge at the peak of her jump. This means that you'll simply have to guess whether or not she'll be invincible when you try to punish her for double jumping.

And would you say IHSB didn't handle Chops' laser game well since Samus isn't/shouldn't be afraid of them, or did he just not punish hard enough when he did get a hit?
I haven't watched the match in a long time, so I don't remember. I suspect it's more the latter than the former, although he may have been letting the lasers fluster him. I'd have to watch it again. Chops may also have been playing a proper safe game.

Also when you say "snipe" bombs do you mean I can laser them and they explode? I didn't think it worked like that so I feel like I'm misreading.
Maybe I'm misremembering. I was pretty sure the bombs had a living hitbox, and so could be hit by lasers. I thought I remembered some Falco really screwing up my recovery by sniping them.

I'm legitimately surprised that up-B OOS beats double shine. That gives me a fair amount of respect for that move and I'll be sure to plan around the technique accordingly now.
All Samus needs is two frames out of blockstun. One for the jump, one for Screw Attack to start. Fox might actually be able to frame trap Samus with his double shine, but Falco's jumpsquat is too long.

If you want, we can sit down next time we're in the same place and talk about the ways Falco can work around Screw Attack, and what kinds of conditioning you can do to keep Samus on her toes.
 

HugS™

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I don't like all these one-trick solutions you're all trying to give PP on the match up vs Samus.

Just like any real top level match up, you have to know the character and the opponent well. You can't go in with the mindset "If I just don't approach, I win", or "if I shield after landing, she can't do anything!"

Samus pressure does exist, she can grab, and she can be made to adapt to a lot of shallow counter strategies. I don't understand why people would bring up 5 year old matchup strategies.

PP, you're not a camper. You're a solid, mid-to-high paced Falco who doesn't really run away. In my experience, your best bet will always be to be hyper aggressive (Like Mango) and to always mix up your approaches. It's a bad thing to become predictable vs a Samus, especially when you're working against your style of preference. The whole point of a good Samus's existence is to adapt and HARD counter specific tendencies while chipping damage in tiny increments. So if you're constantly mixing it up and not just running away and lasering, shielding after an aerial, or platform camping, then she'll have a very hard time doing much more than chip damage.

In my experience, my matches tend to be close against a lot of people consistently, whether my opponents are amazingly good or mediocre. It's a joke in Socal that no matter who you are, you'll always take me to last stock. But the reason for that is because as a mid tier player, my best bet is to expend effort in adapting to my opponent. People that are new to me can sometimes have a quirky strategy that I'm not used to, but if it's shallow, it will take me a few stocks to figure it out, then I catch up and win on match 1, then 2/3 stock them on match 2.

But someone like Mango, I can't predict no matter how hard I try and the amount of matches I have with him. Don't employ these shallow strategies to try and beat someone like me. You'll honestly just need to play Samus enough to figure it out on your own without any kind of cheap tricks and shallow strategies.

Lol, funny how Phootbag gave the best advice here...as a samus player. Wouldn't you know it.
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
FH Fair seems great vs Samus come to think of it........mmmyessss

Do you get hit out of edge dash Nairs ever? I'm thinking mostly in startup btw.

You can forget about me moving while shining LMAO I'll take my chances and try to go in deep when I use it for now. I know it's underused by top players but I want to do my own thing so screw whatever the other ones are doing lol. =p Puttin that theory into practice baby.

Yeah good looks on that shield drop mastering bro. Guess I'll get to work on them last haha. When I master that though.....dang lol. Any tips for how to execute the technique btw?

Shortening is legit man gtfo =p
Well ledgedashes usually catch most people off guard because it is a very uncommon mixup, at least for Falco. They are fast, which makes it seem like they take up a large amount of space with low risk due to invincibility. If the opponent is ever expecting a ledgedash, it really isn't that hard to punish, even with full invincibility. I played Wenbo a week ago and even though he has almost flawless ledgedashes with Fox, when I anticipated them and stayed near the center of the stage I could punish pretty easily. People who ledgedash tend to feel the need to attack regardless of whether or not they should because they want to get something off during their invincibility. That is why I prefer ledgedash shine (need to hit is much lower) to nairs (probably a higher payoff, but if they do something/anything about the approach you get borked). I also don't get the full invincibility every time though, so this is all accounting for human error (which I hopefully will be able to eliminate eventually lol). If I were as consistent as Wenbo (who can get mad invincibility frames almost every time) I would probably nair more because unless they avoid the nair completely, it's usually a guaranteed hit or at the very least a trade.

Overall, I would just recommend treating it like any other approach. Instead of a laser in front of you, you are working with ledge invincibility. Your brain compiles all the data (how far away is he; his/your percent; what is the payoff for each move; what he's expecting; what you did last time you grabbed the ledge; etc.) and you choose a course of action. Which move to use becomes more obvious once you test each attack and see for yourself what options they cover/compliment. When ledgedashes are mixed with LHDL, LH side-Bs, regular getups, ledge getup attacks, LH aerials, etc. it becomes much more about picking the right option and less about what moves you use out of the ledgedash itself. (I dreamed last night that I was in GFs and I ledgedashed a pivot utilt -> dair spike FTW, so that's my next venture. XD)


Shield drop tips are hard enough to give in person, let alone on the internet. lol Definitely the most subtle movement in the game. There are many "strategies" to doing/learning shield dropping, but this is mine based on how I taught myself how to do it. I went through dozens of different little methods to do it as best as possible.

Basically, I would recommend starting out with Isai dropping. You walk forward then press down drop through. Simple enough. Now shield on a platform and in your head try to Isai drop. Assuming you hold all the way to the right to Isai drop (I do), you will roll but that's not a big deal right now. After your roll, you'll be tilting your shield to the side. From that position, slowly slide your stick along the edge of the outer rim. Right when you reach the downward 45 degree mark, you will drop through the platform. Repeat this exercise of rolling to give your shield the side-tilt then moving it downwards to drop through. When you can do this consistently, you can start practicing doing it without the roll.

Without the roll, all of the movements you did above are the same, but you can not touch the rim around the control stick. The Isai drop your were doing before now becomes a sort of ftilt in shield linked immediately with a low angled ftilt in shield. If you're rolling, you're hitting too far to the right, and if you're spot dodging, you are going too far down too fast. If your shield is breaking, you're a scrub. ;)

After you've done the two exercises above about a million times, you'll have developed a sense of the angle you have to have your stick at in order to drop. In order to make your shield drops look not retardedly slow, you will have to combine the two methods above to get the way I currently do it, which is I push the stick all the way to the rim at a 44 degree angle then slide it down to the 45 to drop. Obviously I don't do this perfectly. I probably often just hit the 40 degree mark because it's easier, but if you're just starting out you will be rolling a lot. Just keep lowering that angle to the drop-angle at 45. I've always compared this part to moonwalking (you CAN moonwalk, right? XD). When you start out moonwalking, you dash straight to the side then rotate the stick all the way along the rim to the other direction. As you improve your moonwalks, you begin taking more and more of a shortcut from the side to the bottom to the other side. Shield dropping works similarly in that when you are bad, you will have to go straight to the side, but the better you get, the closer your angle will start out to being at the 45. Then when you are doing it robotically, you will notice the "tilt right, slide downwards" motion you used to rely on is barely even present anymore as it's become almost a singular fluid motion.

Hopefully that at least gives some guidelines for your practice. If I make it to RoM I may have to give you a tech skill clinic. Then you can give me a clinic on stuff that actually makes you good at this game. LOL
 

TheZhuKeeper

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 2, 2007
Messages
2,908
Location
Philadelphia, PA
Samus is all defense no offense. I remember Zanguzen beat every samus (I remember he beat Wes after PC lost to Wes cuz PC approached and Zang shot like 50934093 lasers) and Zanguzen beat hugs too. Just shoot 100000 lasers. Samus's approaches are ***

if you don't SH aerial at her much, you'll win

pretend there is a bubble around samus's body, and you aren't allowed to touch it more than once every 10+ seconds
I actually practiced with Zang before every Tristate tourny, he got me trained up pretty well. The guy still has it (even though he's 1000% oldschool).



And hey Hugs, I always wondered, but what did you think about playing me in general?
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
Just like any real top level match up, you have to know the character and the opponent well. You can't go in with the mindset "If I just don't approach, I win", or "if I shield after landing, she can't do anything!"
Definitely, but he doesn't have any real exposure to the character. While there's no substitute for experience, using petty guidelines is still some soft of advantage that he can test until he's better at it.
 

Dr Peepee

Thanks for Everything <3
Moderator
BRoomer
Joined
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Messages
27,766
Location
Raleigh, North Carolina
Basically, when Samus is ledge-hopping, the lowest point she can jump to and still land on the stage at the peak of her jump is very close to the highest point she can jump to and grab the ledge at the peak of her jump. This means that you'll simply have to guess whether or not she'll be invincible when you try to punish her for double jumping.


I haven't watched the match in a long time, so I don't remember. I suspect it's more the latter than the former, although he may have been letting the lasers fluster him. I'd have to watch it again. Chops may also have been playing a proper safe game.


Maybe I'm misremembering. I was pretty sure the bombs had a living hitbox, and so could be hit by lasers. I thought I remembered some Falco really screwing up my recovery by sniping them.


All Samus needs is two frames out of blockstun. One for the jump, one for Screw Attack to start. Fox might actually be able to frame trap Samus with his double shine, but Falco's jumpsquat is too long.

If you want, we can sit down next time we're in the same place and talk about the ways Falco can work around Screw Attack, and what kinds of conditioning you can do to keep Samus on her toes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f1izwXbV1ac

Also yeah les do et. NCSU?

I don't like all these one-trick solutions you're all trying to give PP on the match up vs Samus.

Just like any real top level match up, you have to know the character and the opponent well. You can't go in with the mindset "If I just don't approach, I win", or "if I shield after landing, she can't do anything!"

Samus pressure does exist, she can grab, and she can be made to adapt to a lot of shallow counter strategies. I don't understand why people would bring up 5 year old matchup strategies.

PP, you're not a camper. You're a solid, mid-to-high paced Falco who doesn't really run away. In my experience, your best bet will always be to be hyper aggressive (Like Mango) and to always mix up your approaches. It's a bad thing to become predictable vs a Samus, especially when you're working against your style of preference. The whole point of a good Samus's existence is to adapt and HARD counter specific tendencies while chipping damage in tiny increments. So if you're constantly mixing it up and not just running away and lasering, shielding after an aerial, or platform camping, then she'll have a very hard time doing much more than chip damage.

In my experience, my matches tend to be close against a lot of people consistently, whether my opponents are amazingly good or mediocre. It's a joke in Socal that no matter who you are, you'll always take me to last stock. But the reason for that is because as a mid tier player, my best bet is to expend effort in adapting to my opponent. People that are new to me can sometimes have a quirky strategy that I'm not used to, but if it's shallow, it will take me a few stocks to figure it out, then I catch up and win on match 1, then 2/3 stock them on match 2.

But someone like Mango, I can't predict no matter how hard I try and the amount of matches I have with him. Don't employ these shallow strategies to try and beat someone like me. You'll honestly just need to play Samus enough to figure it out on your own without any kind of cheap tricks and shallow strategies.

Lol, funny how Phootbag gave the best advice here...as a samus player. Wouldn't you know it.
I was thinking along the lines of a fairly aggressive or maybe passive aggressive(spaced Bairs and empty hops come to mind for this alternating strategy) play, but maybe I just don't know Samus specifics enough to understand why rushing her down would work so well. I'm assuming it must be so she can't figure me out and punish me super hard, so that seems like a pretty good way to be about things. Though, if I were to just be pretty tricky in general, as long as I was applying some type of pressure(not laser from across the stage or anything), then I could still be effective, right?

Either way, I'll give your suggestion a shot. Thanks man. =)

Well ledgedashes usually catch most people off guard because it is a very uncommon mixup, at least for Falco. They are fast, which makes it seem like they take up a large amount of space with low risk due to invincibility. If the opponent is ever expecting a ledgedash, it really isn't that hard to punish, even with full invincibility. I played Wenbo a week ago and even though he has almost flawless ledgedashes with Fox, when I anticipated them and stayed near the center of the stage I could punish pretty easily. People who ledgedash tend to feel the need to attack regardless of whether or not they should because they want to get something off during their invincibility. That is why I prefer ledgedash shine (need to hit is much lower) to nairs (probably a higher payoff, but if they do something/anything about the approach you get borked). I also don't get the full invincibility every time though, so this is all accounting for human error (which I hopefully will be able to eliminate eventually lol). If I were as consistent as Wenbo (who can get mad invincibility frames almost every time) I would probably nair more because unless they avoid the nair completely, it's usually a guaranteed hit or at the very least a trade.

Overall, I would just recommend treating it like any other approach. Instead of a laser in front of you, you are working with ledge invincibility. Your brain compiles all the data (how far away is he; his/your percent; what is the payoff for each move; what he's expecting; what you did last time you grabbed the ledge; etc.) and you choose a course of action. Which move to use becomes more obvious once you test each attack and see for yourself what options they cover/compliment. When ledgedashes are mixed with LHDL, LH side-Bs, regular getups, ledge getup attacks, LH aerials, etc. it becomes much more about picking the right option and less about what moves you use out of the ledgedash itself. (I dreamed last night that I was in GFs and I ledgedashed a pivot utilt -> dair spike FTW, so that's my next venture. XD)


Shield drop tips are hard enough to give in person, let alone on the internet. lol Definitely the most subtle movement in the game. There are many "strategies" to doing/learning shield dropping, but this is mine based on how I taught myself how to do it. I went through dozens of different little methods to do it as best as possible.

Basically, I would recommend starting out with Isai dropping. You walk forward then press down drop through. Simple enough. Now shield on a platform and in your head try to Isai drop. Assuming you hold all the way to the right to Isai drop (I do), you will roll but that's not a big deal right now. After your roll, you'll be tilting your shield to the side. From that position, slowly slide your stick along the edge of the outer rim. Right when you reach the downward 45 degree mark, you will drop through the platform. Repeat this exercise of rolling to give your shield the side-tilt then moving it downwards to drop through. When you can do this consistently, you can start practicing doing it without the roll.

Without the roll, all of the movements you did above are the same, but you can not touch the rim around the control stick. The Isai drop your were doing before now becomes a sort of ftilt in shield linked immediately with a low angled ftilt in shield. If you're rolling, you're hitting too far to the right, and if you're spot dodging, you are going too far down too fast. If your shield is breaking, you're a scrub. ;)

After you've done the two exercises above about a million times, you'll have developed a sense of the angle you have to have your stick at in order to drop. In order to make your shield drops look not retardedly slow, you will have to combine the two methods above to get the way I currently do it, which is I push the stick all the way to the rim at a 44 degree angle then slide it down to the 45 to drop. Obviously I don't do this perfectly. I probably often just hit the 40 degree mark because it's easier, but if you're just starting out you will be rolling a lot. Just keep lowering that angle to the drop-angle at 45. I've always compared this part to moonwalking (you CAN moonwalk, right? XD). When you start out moonwalking, you dash straight to the side then rotate the stick all the way along the rim to the other direction. As you improve your moonwalks, you begin taking more and more of a shortcut from the side to the bottom to the other side. Shield dropping works similarly in that when you are bad, you will have to go straight to the side, but the better you get, the closer your angle will start out to being at the 45. Then when you are doing it robotically, you will notice the "tilt right, slide downwards" motion you used to rely on is barely even present anymore as it's become almost a singular fluid motion.

Hopefully that at least gives some guidelines for your practice. If I make it to RoM I may have to give you a tech skill clinic. Then you can give me a clinic on stuff that actually makes you good at this game. LOL
I usually edge dashed into shield before wtf LOL. Attacking out of it is hard for me. XD

But yeah I'll work on seeing what I can get out.


Also no I can't moonwalk except that one with some characters to the edge LOL. =p

And thanks for the Isai Drop idea. I'll definitely practice that. =)
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
I usually edge dashed into shield before wtf LOL. Attacking out of it is hard for me. XD

But yeah I'll work on seeing what I can get out.


Also no I can't moonwalk except that one with some characters to the edge LOL. =p

And thanks for the Isai Drop idea. I'll definitely practice that. =)
Yeah, definitely don't shield unless you have to. It's a nasty habit I had a while ago, mostly because it feels so easy to just keep holding down L after the airdodge. Attacking is definitely harder, but a lot of it is just mental where you just have to realize that you CAN attack. Idk if you watched Leffen's matches from Beast 2, but he aerials out of ledgedashes with amazingly fluidity.
 

ph00tbag

C(ϾᶘϿ)Ͻ
Joined
Mar 16, 2007
Messages
7,245
Location
NC
Yeah, there were a lot of missed punishes, including some horribly botched gimp attempts. Not to mention there were some frustration jumps that Chops punished well. I also think powershielding would have helped IHSB out.

Not to take away from chops, though. He didn't play the match-up perfectly, but he certainly did some really unexpected things. It was a combination of Chops not being a slouch and IHSB getting flustered.

It's worth noting that it's really boring to play most Falcos for Samus mains. It's a very slow match-up even if you're winning, because a lot of Falcos do exactly what Chops is doing, even if it's not the most unpredictable strategy. It's easy to lose patience with having to beat a stale strategy with a stale strategy, especially if you're missing as many tech reads as IHSB was missing there.

And now you're just taunting me with NCSU. You know I can't be there.
 

unknown522

Some guy
Joined
Aug 17, 2005
Messages
8,047
Location
Toronto, Ontario
PP, you're not a camper. You're a solid, mid-to-high paced Falco who doesn't really run away. In my experience, your best bet will always be to be hyper aggressive (Like Mango) and to always mix up your approaches. It's a bad thing to become predictable vs a Samus, especially when you're working against your style of preference. The whole point of a good Samus's existence is to adapt and HARD counter specific tendencies while chipping damage in tiny increments. So if you're constantly mixing it up and not just running away and lasering, shielding after an aerial, or platform camping, then she'll have a very hard time doing much more than chip damage.
I dunno. PP can really get his camp on once he starts losing
 

ShroudedOne

Smash Hero
Premium
Joined
Mar 14, 2011
Messages
5,493
Hugs, no one was saying that Peepee should only do one thing from start to finish. Obviously, agaisnt any MU you don't really know, you're going to have to have mix ups, and keep the opponent guessing. Especially with Samus.
 
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