PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[Bones0]

Actually, everyone is just less bad than you. PP can't even shorten illusions and he is top 3 in the game. Mango can't resist jumping onto Randall for edge guards. Armada doesn't even main Falco!

See, everyone has a lot to improve on.


On a less abstract note, just identify their character, what their main options are from their current location, then attempt to cover as many options as possible with your own positioning. For instance, if you're playing Falco dittos and you are controlling the middle while he is on the ledge, you know the certain things he can do FROM the ledge (usually a ledge dash, LHDL, LH aerial, LH onto the side plat). Working just with those 4 options, you can figure out their patterns and then how to punish them. Someone who LHDLs every time will be really vulnerable if you place yourself onto the top or side plat and drop through with an aerial from above. The same applies to options on the stage, but players typically have more options, or at least more variations of the same options. If you are in a neutral position, in general they can move backwards, forwards, or jump. There are many complex scenarios that come out of those options, so just by playing you'll figure out what their options are, and then through experimentation/watching videos of yourself and others you can figure out ways to cover and punish those options.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Armada doesn't even main Falco!

I'm not even sure why he's in the top ten best players, to be honest. =P

 

[Bones0]

I'm not even sure why he's in the top ten best players, to be honest. =P

I heard he just spams dsmash. idk

 

[Druggedfox]

Armada doesn't even main Falco!

That was so good xDDD

 

[Mokumo]

edit: oops wrong thread lol

 

[ryulord_678]

Actually, everyone is just less bad than you. PP can't even shorten illusions and he is top 3 in the game. Mango can't resist jumping onto Randall for edge guards. Armada doesn't even main Falco!

See, everyone has a lot to improve on.


On a less abstract note, just identify their character, what their main options are from their current location, then attempt to cover as many options as possible with your own positioning. For instance, if you're playing Falco dittos and you are controlling the middle while he is on the ledge, you know the certain things he can do FROM the ledge (usually a ledge dash, LHDL, LH aerial, LH onto the side plat). Working just with those 4 options, you can figure out their patterns and then how to punish them. Someone who LHDLs every time will be really vulnerable if you place yourself onto the top or side plat and drop through with an aerial from above. The same applies to options on the stage, but players typically have more options, or at least more variations of the same options. If you are in a neutral position, in general they can move backwards, forwards, or jump. There are many complex scenarios that come out of those options, so just by playing you'll figure out what their options are, and then through experimentation/watching videos of yourself and others you can figure out ways to cover and punish those options.

But melee isnt about option coverage from neutral... that's why its so deep, is that from neutral, there are thousands of options that each player can take in the next 5 seconds from any point in time.

And when I'm playing someone better than me, I dont know how to improve against them. They do everything better than me already, play the option and punish game better, space better, and understand things about the neutral position that I just dont perceive.

I'm ok with being bad, I just dont know where to start to improve.

-rl

 

[Sinji]

of course he doesn't use falco

 

[Doomblaze]

But melee isnt about option coverage from neutral... that's why its so deep, is that from neutral, there are thousands of options that each player can take in the next 5 seconds from any point in time.

And when I'm playing someone better than me, I dont know how to improve against them. They do everything better than me already, play the option and punish game better, space better, and understand things about the neutral position that I just dont perceive.

I'm ok with being bad, I just dont know where to start to improve.

-rl

Im kind of in the same position as you. I went from playing my friends who play casually to playing some of the best players in michigan now that im in college, and most of them could beat me with 3-4 different characters when i started playing with them last month, now only a few of them can beat me with 3-4 different characters.

What i did to improve was first realize that generally, you will be given an opportunity to combo **** someone during a stock. The difference between you and better players is that they will capitalize on that opportunity to do major damage, and you won't be able to. Also, they can generally DI much better than you and control the stage better than you.

An example of this is when im playing vs my friends captain falcon. On my better days, if i can get a shine off on him, i can do 40-60 damage to him, if not kill him, and on my worse days i shine him and realize that my tech skill sucks so i just end the combo with a nair or a downsmash or something, and do like 30 damage. I've learned that the main way he starts his combos is by trying to get a nair off on me, so if i focus on not getting naired, i last a lot longer and make life more difficult for him.

When im playing against my friends samus, ill think that i can go near him when hes on the edge and he'll down smash me and shoot a missile at me and gimp me like its nothing. next time I feel like being stupid ill DI the smash upwards so i dont instantly die.

When he plays marth against me, ill get grabbed and i'll die. Next time, ill DI the uptilt properly so i dont die as quickly.

A big part of playing better players is learning what your weaknesses are and how not to get *****. My weakness right now is my inconsistent tech skill and my lack of lasers. I'll get shield grabbed ALOT and ill jump into **** instead of lasering my way there.

 

[ryulord_678]

Well I play other video games (and one other very competitively), and it seems to me that at a certain point, its not going to be about "stop making mistakes."
I definitely make them and see a lot of them, but for a more static game, there's a general flow of being safe and calculating risky decisions (playing moba games, D2, etc). But with smash its like, you just go, and two people are just trying to **** eachother, and a lot of times I dont know why one person gets the first hit.

Like fox vs falco. They can just destroy eachother off of a hit, but I dont know why better players get the first hit more often. I do a lot of times and can point to things like "he got baited by an autocancel," "didnt fast fall his aerial," or "made a bad read." But I feel like I dont get the other things in the game, the things that lead to the rps situations and the edgeguards.

And surprisingly, the thing thats improved most is my DI, cause I spend a lot of time on that roller coaster, if you know what I mean...

My weaknesses are that I dont punish well, I dont know most of the matchups, and I just run around and hope someone makes a mistake and I can be close enough to punish it.

-rl

 

[Bl@ckChris]

a lot of it is observing habits. as haphazard as this game is, every player has their own ideas about how to approach, how to defend, and how to deal with certain situations. once you know or have an idea of how your opponent will deal with a situation, then you put them in that situation, and work from there.

 

[ryulord_678]

so youre telling me that I should just watch the other person and go into a read and option coverage game? I already said that I'm aware of all that.

"then you put them in that situation"

ok...... thats the problem. I cant pick up their controller for them.
I know how to play video games, the advice youre giving isnt close to what my problem is >_>

 

[ShroudedOne]

I think that you might be asking for something which can't be stated to you explicitly. I'm dealing with the same issue of trying to get better/not be horrible at this game, and the answers people will give you won't seem to make sense...I think someone like Peepee who could do a post on this might help somewhat but improving at this game is...difficult for everyone, and different for everyone. That's not really helpful, though. =\

 

[Dr Peepee]

I don't think the fundamentals of brawl are more similar to melee than any other fighting game fundamentals might be.

The approach to brawl involves a lot more safe option selection, understanding the game's RPS situations, and walling (I'd argue the same for something like Street Fighter).

Melee *has* all of these, but there is less of a focus on such fundamentals than there is in brawl. Additionally, the speed in and of itself doesn't change much; rather, its about how the speed affects our ability to perceive situations. For example, understanding every little RPS situation in brawl is far more important, because you have the time to mentally process every option and go through the whole [psychology, reverse psychology, reverse-reverse psychology]/[yomi levels]/[whatever you want to call it]. Games where constant split-second decision making is necessary may still have RPS situations, particularly, but not limited to, general neutral situations, however there's far less emphasis on them; instead, there's an emphasis on reactions, instincts, and reads.

I was gonna say more... then I got side tracked... I'll leave it at that, I guess, unless anyone else has something to say about it.

What about edgeguarding? It does exist in Brawl and is obviously slowed down as well to help people focus easier on covering options and whatnot.....

I have also made great use of the juggle(aka combo) system in that it forces me to move/attack so that I am at least one step ahead of my opponent's decisions/options. For example, if I am Marth against Snake then I want to cover Snake's fall, but I can't overcommit to his falling trajectory because most Snake's B reversal(pull a grenade and reverse momentum) and mix in attacks so I have to recall what is most common of these options and either do a late aerial to try and cover them all or attack early to catch snake before he acts. In Melee, there's no B reversing with momentum like there is in Brawl, but there are pretty similar decision gates that just come much faster and require more precise timing(at times anyway in my opinion), but you definitely mentioned this part. I suppose I don't necessarily agree with your point here so much as how you got to it.

Actually, everyone is just less bad than you. PP can't even shorten illusions and he is top 3 in the game. Mango can't resist jumping onto Randall for edge guards. Armada doesn't even main Falco!

See, everyone has a lot to improve on.


On a less abstract note, just identify their character, what their main options are from their current location, then attempt to cover as many options as possible with your own positioning. For instance, if you're playing Falco dittos and you are controlling the middle while he is on the ledge, you know the certain things he can do FROM the ledge (usually a ledge dash, LHDL, LH aerial, LH onto the side plat). Working just with those 4 options, you can figure out their patterns and then how to punish them. Someone who LHDLs every time will be really vulnerable if you place yourself onto the top or side plat and drop through with an aerial from above. The same applies to options on the stage, but players typically have more options, or at least more variations of the same options. If you are in a neutral position, in general they can move backwards, forwards, or jump. There are many complex scenarios that come out of those options, so just by playing you'll figure out what their options are, and then through experimentation/watching videos of yourself and others you can figure out ways to cover and punish those options.

shortening is hard =(

And yeah good post haha

 

[genkaku]

I played puff for a bit to learn some of that stuff
I don't know if it's just my style of puff, but as soon as I got comfortable with her my game revolved around getting those kinds of reads/conditioning to force the other player into a situation where they were uncomfortable/would allow me to rest, 'cause rest is cooool.

It has a lot to do with mental pressure. Recovery is a good, simple RPS situation to think about. Spacies have options coming back on stage, so most of the time you have to commit to something and hope that you chose to edge-guard the right one. Like, if a fox likes to sideB to recover, you anticipate and punish it once or twice. At that point they're going to be a little less eager to sideB, so you can make a more intelligent prediction. Plus they're going to be nervous or unsure. This is where you win the RPS game. You're making sure that you can react to what options they are most likely to take based on the history of the match, the spacing that you're actively establishing and their mental picture of what they should do based on your spacing. They're afraid to side B, you make a movement to make a high recovery look unsafe, they get nervous and take the low recovery. You anticipated this and you adjust your spacing and punish. Stock. Obviously it's a bit more involved than that and the higher level the play the less bluffs are going to work, but it's an easy way to start to think about what forcing situations looks like.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nppAMl_ntwE
I picked up puff after watching mango's edgeguards here

 

[KirbyKaze]

-kirbykaze

you rang? what do you want...?

 

[Wake]

I wish I could summon KK at will like that

 

[KirbyKaze]

You can. I namesearch.

 

[genkaku]

I sacrifice my crush and shroudedone to summon kirbykaze in attack mode!

 

[Druggedfox]

What about edgeguarding? It does exist in Brawl and is obviously slowed down as well to help people focus easier on covering options and whatnot.....

I have also made great use of the juggle(aka combo) system in that it forces me to move/attack so that I am at least one step ahead of my opponent's decisions/options. For example, if I am Marth against Snake then I want to cover Snake's fall, but I can't overcommit to his falling trajectory because most Snake's B reversal(pull a grenade and reverse momentum) and mix in attacks so I have to recall what is most common of these options and either do a late aerial to try and cover them all or attack early to catch snake before he acts. In Melee, there's no B reversing with momentum like there is in Brawl, but there are pretty similar decision gates that just come much faster and require more precise timing(at times anyway in my opinion), but you definitely mentioned this part. I suppose I don't necessarily agree with your point here so much as how you got to it.

Both edgeguarding and juggling more or less fall under RPS/option coverage. Juggling specifically falls under a more general "keeping your opponent in a helpless position"; its not juggling in and of itself that you're going for, but rather the situation where your opponent has fewer and fewer options. If your option has a low number of options, you can generally turn it into an RPS, or if you can cover all the options then they are helpless and it becomes game knowledge/spacing/option coverage. Edgeguarding is the same thing, fundamentally; its simply a specific application of a more general concept.

Other games might not have such concepts as juggling or edgeguarding, but the fundamentals behind doing so still fall under the things I mentioned. Now, those things *do* exist in both melee and brawl; I never said there weren't similarities. The fundamentals behind juggling and edgeguarding, however, exist in other games to varying extents. That said, I still refer to my initial post arguing that the fundamentals that you must focus on in brawl are more similar to other fighting games than they are to melee's fundmentals.

 

[unknown522]

you rang? what do you want...?

I wish I could summon KK at will like that

You can. I namesearch.

I dunno why I found this funny

 

[prog]

it is funny

 

[unknown522]

that was a quick post

 

[Deleted member]

melee is all about essentials. especially spacing. oh my god @ how many problems are solved by better spacing.

 

[Bones0]

melee is all about essentials. especially spacing. oh my god @ how many problems are solved by better spacing.

"Hey, how can I stop getting destroyed by people who-"
"SPACE BETTER."

 

[ShroudedOne]

I sacrifice my crush and shroudedone to summon kirbykaze in attack mode!

*rolls eyes*

The Internet...

 

[genkaku]

You know, if you really have that much of a problem with me...

Well, never mind. *shrug* I'll just take it as a joke.

haha, I have absolutely no problem. Yours was just one of the first two names that came to mind because I see your posts so often.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Ugh. I hate taking posts out of context. Sorry...

Again...the Internet...

 

[Dr Peepee]

Both edgeguarding and juggling more or less fall under RPS/option coverage. Juggling specifically falls under a more general "keeping your opponent in a helpless position"; its not juggling in and of itself that you're going for, but rather the situation where your opponent has fewer and fewer options. If your option has a low number of options, you can generally turn it into an RPS, or if you can cover all the options then they are helpless and it becomes game knowledge/spacing/option coverage. Edgeguarding is the same thing, fundamentally; its simply a specific application of a more general concept.

Other games might not have such concepts as juggling or edgeguarding, but the fundamentals behind doing so still fall under the things I mentioned. Now, those things *do* exist in both melee and brawl; I never said there weren't similarities. The fundamentals behind juggling and edgeguarding, however, exist in other games to varying extents. That said, I still refer to my initial post arguing that the fundamentals that you must focus on in brawl are more similar to other fighting games than they are to melee's fundmentals.

Okay, that's an interesting idea. I don't know as much about other fighting games as I do Melee or Brawl, so could you provide some examples then?

 

[Wake]

I dunno why I found this funny

It is pretty funny though.

 

[Druggedfox]

Okay, that's an interesting idea. I don't know as much about other fighting games as I do Melee or Brawl, so could you provide some examples then?

Sure:

Let's say you're edgeguarding a falco, and you can either go off stage and get an essentially guaranteed edgeguard on every option except an immediate DJ dair. Alternatively, you could play it safe and stay on stage; if he DJ dairs you get an easy punish, but if he doesn't...then you have to try to deal with his other recovery options. Now, you *can* deal with his other recovery options, but its far less guaranteed than if you had tried to... idk, run off fair with marth (in a situation where you'd catch a DJ back, and hit him if he doesn't DJ; the only way to beat it might be DJ immediate dair) or something of the sort.

To me, the edgeguarding/gimping situation isn't the fundamental that you need to learn; rather, the fundamental concept is one where you are forced to play a guessing game. Falco doesn't want to DJ dair, because it only beats *one* of your options; at the same time, if he doesn't, he's vulnerable to an essentially free kill. You know the scenario. Each option has a particular weight assigned to how good it is, based on the relative risk and reward.

Now, I'll take a different situation in Street Fighter (obviously there are no edgeguards, but the situation is pretty similar imo); I don't really play SF... but w/e, this should be an easy example. I'm not sure how familiar you are with it, but in SF you can't block while in the air. So let's say a Zangief is jumping in on a character with a half-decent anti-air. Zangief's Ultra II in SSF4 is actually an anti-air ultra that can be activated while zangief is in the air, meaning if the opponent ever goes into the air it'll grab them with a pretty high reward.

So you have a similar situation to the edgeguarding falco one. You could stay on the ground from a relatively safe position. If he ultra IIs you punish him for it; if not, you can still place yourself in a good enough position to put you at the advantage/punish (depending on what he does), but its not really guaranteed. On the other hand, you could use an anti-air dragon punch, which guarantees a punish on all of zangief's air options (from most spacings, he won't really have any options that beat out a good anti-air) *except* his ultra II.

If you were to look at how much brawl emphasizes certain fundamental concepts, and compare that to melee/other fighting games I think you'd find that brawl's fundamentals have a lot more in common with fighting games than with melee.

After typing all of this I realized I might be answering the wrong question, but I don't feel like deleting everything I wrote... Were you asking me to give an example of how a similar situation to edgeguarding might exist in another game, or were you asking me to give an example of how brawl's fundamentals are more similar to traditional fighting games' than they are to melee's?

I hope I didn't post the complete wrong thing, though if I did... I can always answer the other question as well >___________>

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Also I think Marth himself benefits from WD towards the opponent greatly, especially when the spacing/DD'ing game is going on.

Hrm.

Hrrrrm

This is the kinda statement that makes me think hypotheticals for like an hour or two haha

 

[Winston]

I hope I didn't post the complete wrong thing, though if I did... I can always answer the other question as well >___________>

Yep, definitely answered the wrong question. Now answer the other one.

...

(i.e. post more often! :D)

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Winston and druggedfox are so homo for one another its hilarious.

 

[Pi]

i beat druggedfox in pools once
MM me at the next tipped off, or apex if ur goin ok?
whatever char u like

even if you wanna be a ****ing ***** AND GO SHEIK I'LL DO IT *****
ur falco & fox are free any way cheers

 

[Dr Peepee]

Sure:

Let's say you're edgeguarding a falco, and you can either go off stage and get an essentially guaranteed edgeguard on every option except an immediate DJ dair. Alternatively, you could play it safe and stay on stage; if he DJ dairs you get an easy punish, but if he doesn't...then you have to try to deal with his other recovery options. Now, you *can* deal with his other recovery options, but its far less guaranteed than if you had tried to... idk, run off fair with marth (in a situation where you'd catch a DJ back, and hit him if he doesn't DJ; the only way to beat it might be DJ immediate dair) or something of the sort.

To me, the edgeguarding/gimping situation isn't the fundamental that you need to learn; rather, the fundamental concept is one where you are forced to play a guessing game. Falco doesn't want to DJ dair, because it only beats *one* of your options; at the same time, if he doesn't, he's vulnerable to an essentially free kill. You know the scenario. Each option has a particular weight assigned to how good it is, based on the relative risk and reward.

Now, I'll take a different situation in Street Fighter (obviously there are no edgeguards, but the situation is pretty similar imo); I don't really play SF... but w/e, this should be an easy example. I'm not sure how familiar you are with it, but in SF you can't block while in the air. So let's say a Zangief is jumping in on a character with a half-decent anti-air. Zangief's Ultra II in SSF4 is actually an anti-air ultra that can be activated while zangief is in the air, meaning if the opponent ever goes into the air it'll grab them with a pretty high reward.

So you have a similar situation to the edgeguarding falco one. You could stay on the ground from a relatively safe position. If he ultra IIs you punish him for it; if not, you can still place yourself in a good enough position to put you at the advantage/punish (depending on what he does), but its not really guaranteed. On the other hand, you could use an anti-air dragon punch, which guarantees a punish on all of zangief's air options (from most spacings, he won't really have any options that beat out a good anti-air) *except* his ultra II.

If you were to look at how much brawl emphasizes certain fundamental concepts, and compare that to melee/other fighting games I think you'd find that brawl's fundamentals have a lot more in common with fighting games than with melee.

After typing all of this I realized I might be answering the wrong question, but I don't feel like deleting everything I wrote... Were you asking me to give an example of how a similar situation to edgeguarding might exist in another game, or were you asking me to give an example of how brawl's fundamentals are more similar to traditional fighting games' than they are to melee's?

I hope I didn't post the complete wrong thing, though if I did... I can always answer the other question as well >___________>

Hm you think about it in terms of option coverage, while I just learned to slow the game down since Melee went too fast. Maybe since the other games went by slower like brawl they could teach similar things? Though I feel that even Brawl's limited movement engine is still smash-oriented which allows transfer of the option coverage easier than from one fighting game to another to Melee. Although I suppose if one is dedicated enough to figure out what's going on in a manner that you're talking about coming from a fighting game then it may not matter.

Curiously enough, Hugs has a theory that most talented smash players tend to not perform as well in 2D fighters. Pink Shinobi rose to the top of the Norcal PRs quickly, but I don't believe he's achieved similar performances in SF or whatever he went to(from when I was stalking that noise anyway) lol. Any comment on why you think that may be?

Hrm.

Hrrrrm

This is the kinda statement that makes me think hypotheticals for like an hour or two haha

WD Ftilt hits so many things hfuidjgnggdgldfgdjkngd freakin Marth ***** lol. soooo many things to say lol

 

[KirbyKaze]

WD forward f-tilt is the only way Marth can beat Sheik in this metagame.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

WD forward f-tilt is the only way Marth can beat Sheik in this metagame.

Forward f-tilt?

*EDIT* Oh wait I just misread, lol.

WD forward, f-tilt

lol I'm so dumb sometimes.

 

[Dr Peepee]

WD forward f-tilt is the only way Marth can beat Sheik in this metagame.

Yo I'd be down to play Marth vs Sheik with you next tourney we're both at. It'd be a very cool learning experience. MM if you want I don't care I just wanna see what it's like haha.

 

[Bones0]

Yo I'd be down to play Marth vs Sheik with you next tourney we're both at. It'd be a very cool learning experience. MM if you want I don't care I just wanna see what it's like haha.

 

[Druggedfox]

i beat druggedfox in pools once
MM me at the next tipped off, or apex if ur goin ok?
whatever char u like

even if you wanna be a ****ing ***** AND GO SHEIK I'LL DO IT *****
ur falco & fox are free any way cheers

I'll probably samus ditto you and win for free or something... :D PP, I'm writing up the other post...will put it up in a bit >_>