PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[ILoveKe$sha]

Dude I was watching you at Tipped Off and you should just switch to Marth your super good with him.

 

[ShroudedOne]

@Peepee: Ah, I see.

Well, I only play Puff sometimes against Falco, and I never play it the other way, but from what I've watched of you vs Hbox, I think that Falco does a really good job of locking her down, and putting her out of position, with lasers/tilts/bair. (I think Peach deals with his lasers a fair amount better than Puff does, mainly because of float). Falco isn't necessarily fast, but he's agile, and I think that helps him too.

It's more or less feeling/abstract thoughts that I've had time to think about, and I realize that there isn't enough Falco/Puff data at a high enough level, but those are my thoughts.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I've always thought puff had an inherent advantage over falco simply because it's so incredibly easy for her to rest the vast majority of his moves. Then again, falco straight shuts down her camp game with his lasers.

Maybe it's just an even matchup?

Well she can "camp" above him and make life tough. Lasers don't necessarily stop that if Falco tries to go in if he gets a couple lasers off anyway because the possible threat of Puff getting in on a Falco who is now lax and enjoying his position isn't appealing either.


Merely spurring discussion before people jump on me <3

I think CC is the most important factor vs sheik. more so than in any other matchup in the game.
Just because, she doesn't have a bonafide anti-CC move or tactic like most other characters.
She doesn't have a "uncrouchable" move (like spacies dair). She doesn't the mechnics of 0 lag/cooldown (like peach), she doesn't have unpunishable range/spacing habits in situations that she is frequently exposed to (like marth/puff)

So in a sense, having a strong crouch cancel game is the most important thing about fighting sheik imo. You can just eat damage from her stray hits and turn them into death combos sometimes.

-

um Zhu mentioned something about getting out of her pressure strings or something and here is the Rock-paper-System to beating sheik I've found. the most common way she leads into shield pressure is fair- > something. If you shield the fair it usualy goes down like this (this all assumes spacing that doesn't allow shine oos. if you can shine oos, go for it):

fair jab- to me it seems like fair jab will beat/disrupt anything oos you try to do in between requiring a jump. So you have to shield the jab and shield grab after

fair ftilt- if they ftilt after the fair, dair them in the face every. single. time. if its SUPER DUPER spaced, laser oos and work from there.

fair downsmash-> they will usually only do this if you are at high percent and they are hoping for a poke. wd OOS and shine them at low percents, or if they are at medium-high percent, just dair combo oos

fair grab-> this is a tricky one to deal with. All the options they have you can literally just hold your shield and react and punish them hard. With this one, holding your shield will get you killed. So you have to roll/dodge out i think. Depending on where their fair hits your shield, you can grab them first but idk how reliable that is.

Fair into a quick dash away/pivot grab -> this is how they will try to beat you when you try to grab them or dair oos or shine oos (when u land) probably. I usualy just try to GTFO if they are using this mixup. either jump away, wavedash back, roll back.
I'm not sure you can directly challenge this, or if you should even be trying to.

this is how I look at sheik's pressure "flow chart" if you will. hopefully some people find it useful and stuff, but most of this should be pretty well known/standard.

You don't think spaced Fair > CC? That's what I thought beat it.

You can't shield grab spaced Fair jab from Sheik which makes that mixup soooo scary in my opinion because it can lead to a grab, the other quick jab which also leads to grabs or other death, or another Fair to reset the situation, but this time Falco's shield is super small so Dsmash, like you said, is more likely and overall harder to deal with if you can't react to the Fair in time(tough under pressure).

No Sheik has ever tried to Fair grab me but if it ever happened once you better believe I'm trying to hit them out of it in the future.

Dude I was watching you at Tipped Off and you should just switch to Marth your super good with him.

Haha that'd be pretty cool but my Marth needs far too much refining to do that for now. Eventually I think it'd be tight to play both Marth and Falco on a top level though for super **** mixup shenanigans =D

 

[Druggedfox]

Dude I was watching you at Tipped Off and you should just switch to Marth your super good with him.

PP so good with marth

 

[Dr Peepee]

@Peepee: Ah, I see.

Well, I only play Puff sometimes against Falco, and I never play it the other way, but from what I've watched of you vs Hbox, I think that Falco does a really good job of locking her down, and putting her out of position, with lasers/tilts/bair. (I think Peach deals with his lasers a fair amount better than Puff does, mainly because of float). Falco isn't necessarily fast, but he's agile, and I think that helps him too.

It's more or less feeling/abstract thoughts that I've had time to think about, and I realize that there isn't enough Falco/Puff data at a high enough level, but those are my thoughts.

Keep in mind Hbox plays defensively and gives me the middle a little more than he should(although he impressed me this time by going for the middle a little more than usual so maybe it is decent data).

I also really want to say you shouldn't base everything on my recent matches with Hbox because I feel I'm just better than him(yes feather ruffling attack go) so it's not a fair representation of the matchup ENTIRELY much like me vs Jman isn't fair for Fox vs Falco because I LOVE fighting Fox. The difference in skill isn't as big for me/hbox as me/jman but I'm just trying to make a point.


I just want to make a clear point more than give misinformation so if you disagree with that assertion about skill just ignore my post lol.

 

[Dr Peepee]

PP so good with marth

When I quit talking

That's all I gotta say

 

[ShroudedOne]

Well then, I guess we need an aggressive Puff to step up. But Puffs are so rare...

And don't worry. I think most people can say that you are better than Hbox (and you didn't even need Ylink )

 

[Dr Peepee]

It doesn't even have to be necessarily an aggressive puff, but one that CAN be aggressive will be enough. It's pretty much just Hbox running the show right now so we have a limited scope of what Puff can do. It's lucky for discussion purposes that both Mango and I play Falco(this is my standard for comparison) because we play differently and still succeed, which is phenomenal for discussion and theorycrafting shenanigans haha.

 

[ruhtraeel]

When I quit talking

That's all I gotta say

PP what's your hardest matchup

I still haven't figured out Marth (getting there if I play really gay) or Puff that well with Falco



G&W vs Puff is almost easier XD

 

[Doser]

I also really want to say you shouldn't base everything on my recent matches with Hbox because I feel I'm just better than him

Shots fired.

 

[Dr Peepee]

PP what's your hardest matchup

I still haven't figured out Marth (getting there if I play really gay) or Puff that well with Falco



G&W vs Puff is almost easier XD

Anything I've never had much exposure to.

Janky low tier stuff, ICs, Samus, anything that is overly aggressive(in an up to date, effective way) lol. I guess Samus is my worst of those? Probably.

If you change a couple things timing or spacing-related about your game then I bet you'd see a lot of changes. My big improvements were a lot of little things that added up with the occasional huge concept to apply to all of it.

Also, anything you can do to punish harder is better. Edgeguards, combos, juggles. Maximize punishments for all of them.

 

[Warhawk]

I was beginning to almost feel that Puff-Falco was even but after watching Hungrybox and PP I almost now feel its back in Puff's favor. There were periods in time during those sets were Hungrybox would take control of the match's pace better than I thought Puff possibly could against Falco (up until that SD and then his momentum went down the tank). And I definitely think PP is better than Hungrybox so I couldn't believe how close he kept it.

 

[ruhtraeel]

Anything I've never had much exposure to.

Janky low tier stuff, ICs, Samus, anything that is overly aggressive(in an up to date, effective way) lol. I guess Samus is my worst of those? Probably.

If you change a couple things timing or spacing-related about your game then I bet you'd see a lot of changes. My big improvements were a lot of little things that added up with the occasional huge concept to apply to all of it.

Also, anything you can do to punish harder is better. Edgeguards, combos, juggles. Maximize punishments for all of them.

I think I realized half way through my tournament match how to play against Marth.

IC's mess up my timing for basic techs like L-cancels and such, I might just go G&W against them or something

Marth just seems really hard to me cause he punishes you more than you can punish/camp him on the same level

I feel I gotta play so on point to beat him

 

[JPOBS]

You don't think spaced Fair > CC? That's what I thought beat it.

beat what exactly? which situation are you referring to?

EDIT: oh yea the whole CC thing sorry, brain fart. Yea spaced fair is her best bet against it. Like unknown was saying though, if she's a "space fair" kind of sheik, then she's doing half the matchup for me by being airborn a lot.

You can't shield grab spaced Fair jab from Sheik which makes that mixup soooo scary in my opinion because it can lead to a grab, the other quick jab which also leads to grabs or other death, or another Fair to reset the situation, but this time Falco's shield is super small so Dsmash, like you said, is more likely and overall harder to deal with if you can't react to the Fair in time(tough under pressure).

No Sheik has ever tried to Fair grab me but if it ever happened once you better believe I'm trying to hit them out of it in the future.

hmm, I've had success mashing grabbing vs fair jab. YMMV i guess.

I definitely agree with the rest of the paragraph though. If she gets away with fair jab hen does another fair, pretty much the worse thing ever for falco.

 

[Divinokage]

I was beginning to almost feel that Puff-Falco was even but after watching Hungrybox and PP I almost now feel its back in Puff's favor. There were periods in time during those sets were Hungrybox would take control of the match's pace better than I thought Puff possibly could against Falco (up until that SD and then his momentum went down the tank). And I definitely think PP is better than Hungrybox so I couldn't believe how close he kept it.

That's really hard to say because there's a lot of subjective stuff going on in a match which influences a player but objectively SDs especially with Puff shouldn't happen. That's the rule #1 for me. To me, it could have gone either way.

 

[Warhawk]

That's really hard to say because there's a lot of subjective stuff going on in a match which influences a player but objectively SDs especially with Puff shouldn't happen. That's the rule #1 for me. To me, it could have gone either way.

What exact subjective stuff are you talking about? I guess I'm a little confused as to what you're saying exactly with that.

 

[unknown522]

I wish I had some recorded matches to show for this stuff. It'd help a lot. That's something I should keep in mind for next time.

I'd never approach with shield what in the world.....but hey if it works then cool I suppose haha.

Ofc it's not something to be spammed, but I get some mileage out if it with little risk. When I do it while they're in the air then usually one of these 5 things happen:
1. they attack too high
2. they see it coming and do a low aerial
3. they DJ (maybe into a platform waveland) to get away from you
4. they try to tomahawk
5. they waveland onto the ground


1. If they immediately attack, then I shine oos or even grab them

2. If they do a low n-air, then they break even on your shield. So make sure you pay attention to whether their next move is grab. It's the only thing that will screw you over (assuming you don't get shield poked. But that seems to only happen to me -_-). If they do any other attack after the aerial and aren't spaced, then I shine oos, grab, or even d-air oos if they do f-tilt.

3. If they DJ away, then I WD oos and try to stalk them from underneath. As long as they are above, then I have succeeded in my goal. The next step is to make sure that I get at least one hit without letting them get down. I feel it's easier to hit her when they're above because they don't have any of their ground options and that gay *** grab. Sheik also doesn't really have any priority below her, unless they get a perfectly-timed f-air. Fortunately, the move starts from above her so it's easier to space around the f-air. Also, the f-air is only below her for 1 frame, so it's ridiculously hard to time.

4. If they try to tomahawk, I almost never get caught by it. I either:
- jump
- grab them first
- shine oos if they're too close
- roll/WD back oos.
- sidestep

5. If they waveland in either direction, then I wavedash oos the opposite way. Or roll, then try to reset positioning. Well, if they waveland past you. Then they've made a bad decision cuz it's unsafe.

Will Sheiks just let you aerial from platforms? Interesting.

yeah, you can get away with it sometimes. The best times when this comes up is when they are hanging around the edge of the stage. Since they have little space to move back. I suppose they can run under you, but it's pretty uncommon for that to happen cuz people don't like to move forward. When I come down on that situation, I try to go in on a diagonal angle to block them from running under. Their f-air can beat/trade with d-air, but from platform height it's really tough to aim that. If you're directly above her, then she can trade with u-air/u-tilt. If you attack diagonally, you will beat those moves though.

I like Dair'ing grounded Sheiks just because they can't CC things but yeah grabs are cool if you can get em.

oh yeah, d-air is amazing of course. Anytime you can land it on grounded opponents, you should always go for it.

Wouldn't DD grab lose to Sheik Fair to Ftilt? I guess you could hold down to CC punish but then yomi mixups blah....do Sheiks shield after aerials much? I can't get them to do it a lot I don't think. Are there any spacing tricks you're using for that?

Some shield, and some don't. If you can punish them a lot for doing too many aerials, then most likely they'll start shielding. But yeah, you can DD-grab on her aerials, but you will most likely get stuffed by jab. You can DD-grab on either the f-air, or the f-tilt, but it's harder on a f-air cuz of the low lag. Still, because sheik has to take a bit of extra time to land when auto-canceling, it gives enough time to punish the landing (ofc assuming you are close enough to them when they whiff the f-air). You can also stuff the f-tilt with an aerial first. Still, if you're afraid of an f-tilt, just wait longer and see what they do.

I'm still going back to your other post btw haha that junk was too good.

thanks :D

 

[Divinokage]

What exact subjective stuff are you talking about? I guess I'm a little confused as to what you're saying exactly with that.

Well, like getting emotionally pressured. Just the whole change of feelings going on in a match, it's something outside of our control because they only happen inside the match and you never know how it's going to turn out.

The objective side I was talking about was more what the characters did in the game, like SDs or misinputs perhaps?

 

[Warhawk]

Well, like getting emotionally pressured. Just the whole change of feelings going on in a match, it's something outside of our control because they only happen inside the match and you never know how it's going to turn out.

The objective side I was talking about was more what the characters did in the game, like SDs or misinputs perhaps?

Oh ok thank you, that's what I thought you meant, and yeah I agree I guess I was just impressed with the stage control Hungrybox managed with Puff, especially when usually that's Falco's game. And yea, that suicide just killed the set for him.

 

[Divinokage]

Yep not SDing makes the other player better, of course. /not sarcastic in case

 

[Doser]

So if I SD three times, my opponent will become weaker?

 

[Divinokage]

Well technically yes because he might become over-confident and that's when you can kill him but...

Seriously, I was more talking about consistency. SDing means you dont have perfect control of your muscles, controller or character. And imo it should be key priority to master this first. Though of course SDs can happen at times but it's all about how the player can try to change his situation into his favor instead of getting discouraged. The better player is one that keeps control.

 

[Vaccine]

Thanks for answering my questions peepee! ive got a new ? now =)

when does DIing up work? ill sometimes try it and double jump. ill even dj in the middle of combos cause i want to stay up in the air longer =/

Edit: alright one more... for now.

if u space it right can u shine someones shield and wd through them without getting shieldgrabbed?

 

[Pi]

@PP
what do u mean u think ur now a better player than Hbox?
when did this happen? how do you mean it?

i mean, like in what regards? you control positional advantage better? ur reactions are better? ur reads/picking up on habits/staying unpredictable/edgeguards/whatever are better?

 

[strawhats]

It doesn't even have to be necessarily an aggressive puff, but one that CAN be aggressive will be enough. It's pretty much just Hbox running the show right now so we have a limited scope of what Puff can do. It's lucky for discussion purposes that both Mango and I play Falco(this is my standard for comparison) because we play differently and still succeed, which is phenomenal for discussion and theorycrafting shenanigans haha.

it's a shame because mango kinda outlines that agressive puff you're talking about, but he proficient in the MU. Maybe if he actually unretires his puffball, we'll see some new jiggz metagame. Doesn't seem likely though (inb4 mango does this just to piss everyone off with jiggz again).

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ZGScuucla9Q#t=644s

cute combo, also if anyone doesn't mind critiquing me vs. falcon that'd be cool.

the 1st match is pretty scrubby.

i know my ledge game is looking ugly vs falcon, i'm trying out new things, i feel if i wanted i could just spam back air till their dead, and they know i'm good at it and comfortable with it, so i'm just trying new stuff out.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Before I do this other multi-quote, I should preface this whole skill and using matches as bases for a matchup thing.

I believe using a match between anything other than 2 top level players is completely pointless in most aspects of determining a matchup. Sure you can get ideas and tricks and some general impressions, but to base the Falco/Jiggz matchup off of me vs Hbox isn't the way to go. If it were me trying to decide, I would look at the characters individually and map out their strengths and weaknesses, how one character exploits the other, their effective zones etc...then see how it played out in the highest-level evenly-skilled match I could find. Maybe tweak a little there. But....to START from the Youtube video and work backward is not what I would recommend simply because bringing differences in skill into the equation will always give a biased perception of ANY matchup. If Hbox was ****** me I would say the same thing unless I simply couldn't find an answer to some thing(s) he was doing.

I hope that clears that up.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Oh. Okay, I understand. That wasn't the only basis I was using, but it was one of them. I guess I'll think about it a little more, then.

 

[Sinji]

I'm pretty sure she could WD OoS --> grab or dash attack

What about dtlit after the WD oos.


Also..... shine usmash oos. 0-0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=1W4M056TLOc#t=92s

 

[Dr Peepee]

beat what exactly? which situation are you referring to?

EDIT: oh yea the whole CC thing sorry, brain fart. Yea spaced fair is her best bet against it. Like unknown was saying though, if she's a "space fair" kind of sheik, then she's doing half the matchup for me by being airborn a lot.

hmm, I've had success mashing grabbing vs fair jab. YMMV i guess.

I definitely agree with the rest of the paragraph though. If she gets away with fair jab hen does another fair, pretty much the worse thing ever for falco.

That's really hard to say because there's a lot of subjective stuff going on in a match which influences a player but objectively SDs especially with Puff shouldn't happen. That's the rule #1 for me. To me, it could have gone either way.

YMMV???

But yes I suppose I'll test out shield grabbing Fair jab. That would be tight if it worked haha.

I wish I had some recorded matches to show for this stuff. It'd help a lot. That's something I should keep in mind for next time.

Ofc it's not something to be spammed, but I get some mileage out if it with little risk. When I do it while they're in the air then usually one of these 5 things happen:
1. they attack too high
2. they see it coming and do a low aerial
3. they DJ (maybe into a platform waveland) to get away from you
4. they try to tomahawk
5. they waveland onto the ground


1. If they immediately attack, then I shine oos or even grab them

2. If they do a low n-air, then they break even on your shield. So make sure you pay attention to whether their next move is grab. It's the only thing that will screw you over (assuming you don't get shield poked. But that seems to only happen to me -_-). If they do any other attack after the aerial and aren't spaced, then I shine oos, grab, or even d-air oos if they do f-tilt.

3. If they DJ away, then I WD oos and try to stalk them from underneath. As long as they are above, then I have succeeded in my goal. The next step is to make sure that I get at least one hit without letting them get down. I feel it's easier to hit her when they're above because they don't have any of their ground options and that gay *** grab. Sheik also doesn't really have any priority below her, unless they get a perfectly-timed f-air. Fortunately, the move starts from above her so it's easier to space around the f-air. Also, the f-air is only below her for 1 frame, so it's ridiculously hard to time.

4. If they try to tomahawk, I almost never get caught by it. I either:
- jump
- grab them first
- shine oos if they're too close
- roll/WD back oos.
- sidestep

5. If they waveland in either direction, then I wavedash oos the opposite way. Or roll, then try to reset positioning. Well, if they waveland past you. Then they've made a bad decision cuz it's unsafe.


yeah, you can get away with it sometimes. The best times when this comes up is when they are hanging around the edge of the stage. Since they have little space to move back. I suppose they can run under you, but it's pretty uncommon for that to happen cuz people don't like to move forward. When I come down on that situation, I try to go in on a diagonal angle to block them from running under. Their f-air can beat/trade with d-air, but from platform height it's really tough to aim that. If you're directly above her, then she can trade with u-air/u-tilt. If you attack diagonally, you will beat those moves though.

oh yeah, d-air is amazing of course. Anytime you can land it on grounded opponents, you should always go for it.

Some shield, and some don't. If you can punish them a lot for doing too many aerials, then most likely they'll start shielding. But yeah, you can DD-grab on her aerials, but you will most likely get stuffed by jab. You can DD-grab on either the f-air, or the f-tilt, but it's harder on a f-air cuz of the low lag. Still, because sheik has to take a bit of extra time to land when auto-canceling, it gives enough time to punish the landing (ofc assuming you are close enough to them when they whiff the f-air). You can also stuff the f-tilt with an aerial first. Still, if you're afraid of an f-tilt, just wait longer and see what they do.

thanks :D

For #1, wouldn't you have to worry about them spacing the move too? If you're confident you can just run inside their range then that's cool I suppose and I just need to work on doing it better I guess.

For #2, their grab beats out yours from Nair? Whoa. I imagine most Sheiks don't know this so they'd probably grab or something, but if they knew to grab then that would make this run up shield option obsolete quickly, right? Unless you're willing to run up CC or WD back attack I guess?


For #3, run off aerials(particularly Bair) from the platform seem quite problematic in this situation. Do you just rush to cover the run off Bair and then react to whatever they're doing if they didn't run off, or what?

They don't like to move forward....hahaha shoulda known. *facepalm* thanks for the tip.

Most likely getting stuffed by jab seems to make this DD grab tactic ineffective but if you're also CC'ing when you input the grab could you CC punish as well?

Really you can beat the Ftilt with an aerial first? Is that possible to do consistently? I had no idea.

Geez you know your Sheik stuff haha.

Thanks for answering my questions peepee! ive got a new ? now =)

when does DIing up work? ill sometimes try it and double jump. ill even dj in the middle of combos cause i want to stay up in the air longer =/

Edit: alright one more... for now.

if u space it right can u shine someones shield and wd through them without getting shieldgrabbed?

Well that DI question is pretty much impossible to answer haha. DI'ing up can work in some situations sometimes but then next time it won't because your opponent will adapt and stuff like that.

DI'ing up is good to also help you survive if you get hit, or to go too far to get hit by a followup move. If someone's moves won't quite link then be careful with your DI inputs. Don't panic when you get hit and try to remember you can still trick them or they could try to trick you into DJ'ing so preserve the DJ whenever possible and DI up when I said you need to.

You usually can't waveshine through someone's shield based on my experience.

@PP
what do u mean u think ur now a better player than Hbox?
when did this happen? how do you mean it?

i mean, like in what regards? you control positional advantage better? ur reactions are better? ur reads/picking up on habits/staying unpredictable/edgeguards/whatever are better?

It happened when I kept playing the game, got over some emotional bull, and evolved my style overall...and when he played the game less than usual. It's a natural thing to happen when one guy is taking something seriously than another and then they both compete seriously on game day.

My theory is more advanced, my nerves don't get to me now unlike his, and I just want it way more.

it's a shame because mango kinda outlines that agressive puff you're talking about, but he proficient in the MU. Maybe if he actually unretires his puffball, we'll see some new jiggz metagame. Doesn't seem likely though (inb4 mango does this just to piss everyone off with jiggz again).

It doesn't have to be Mango. It just has to be a Puff that CAN BE AGGRESSIVE. Doesn't even have to be all aggressive but that would be the obvious counterbalance to give us both sides of the offense/defense spectrum to observe.

 

[JPOBS]

YMMV = your mileage may vary.

 

[stabbedbyanipple]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ZGScuucla9Q#t=644s

cute combo, also if anyone doesn't mind critiquing me vs. falcon that'd be cool.

the 1st match is pretty scrubby.

i know my ledge game is looking ugly vs falcon, i'm trying out new things, i feel if i wanted i could just spam back air till their dead, and they know i'm good at it and comfortable with it, so i'm just trying new stuff out.

Okay I guess I'll critique from the second match onward. Of course, I'm no PP, so take this with a grain of salt.

- You were getting shield grabbed a bit, not a lot, but it's probably something you should work on.
- Be a little bit more careful when you're approaching Falcon's shield, especially with a laser. Quite a few times, he'd get you with Nair or Bair out of shield. Though, it looked like you tried to bait it a few times, and it usually worked but sometimes your spacing would be off and you'd still get Naired lol
- You were pretty mobile when you were attacking, however when you were in a bad spot (like getting up from a grab or your approach not working) you'd just kind of stay still in your shield. Sometimes it's good because you can get a shine out of shield on a badly spaced aerial, but I think either moving out of the way or just trying to out prioritize what he's doing will work better as it stops him from being to pressure you rather than relying on his pressure to not work. There's also CC which works decently well too, unless he stomps
- You get hit by a lot of aerials from the ledge. Idk, I'm pretty sure you know at least a few ways to get around this, you probably just need to be more wary of falcon's ledge options lol
- If he's teching your dair/dsmash a lot, then try late dair to mess up his tech timing

 

[Vaccine]

sorry i did a terrible job wording that question. ill do a better job this time.

i want to no when u cant hold up on the analog stick and gain extra hight from it? ive try holding up in the middle of my combos so i can stay in the air a little longer and ill dj. ill also randomly dj when im running around. i no u can di when u r getting hit and for awhile after u get hit. sometimes ill waste my dj when i use survival di cause i hold up and in for to long.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

Okay I guess I'll critique from the second match onward. Of course, I'm no PP, so take this with a grain of salt.

- You were getting shield grabbed a bit, not a lot, but it's probably something you should work on.
- Be a little bit more careful when you're approaching Falcon's shield, especially with a laser. Quite a few times, he'd get you with Nair or Bair out of shield. Though, it looked like you tried to bait it a few times, and it usually worked but sometimes your spacing would be off and you'd still get Naired lol
- You were pretty mobile when you were attacking, however when you were in a bad spot (like getting up from a grab or your approach not working) you'd just kind of stay still in your shield. Sometimes it's good because you can get a shine out of shield on a badly spaced aerial, but I think either moving out of the way or just trying to out prioritize what he's doing will work better as it stops him from being to pressure you rather than relying on his pressure to not work. There's also CC which works decently well too, unless he stomps
- You get hit by a lot of aerials from the ledge. Idk, I'm pretty sure you know at least a few ways to get around this, you probably just need to be more wary of falcon's ledge options lol
- If he's teching your dair/dsmash a lot, then try late dair to mess up his tech timing

tyty matt :D

question though, about 'you get hit by a lot of aerials from the ledge', do you mean me holding the ledge, or the falcon?

 

[unknown522]

For #1, wouldn't you have to worry about them spacing the move too? If you're confident you can just run inside their range then that's cool I suppose and I just need to work on doing it better I guess.

yeah, for sure you have to be careful of their spacing, but if you can run into their space, it makes it hard because sheik has bad air mobility. On top of that, her moves don't have much knockback on shields (well sweetspot b-air does have quite a bit of knockback, but the goal here is to get inside their space).

For #2, their grab beats out yours from Nair? Whoa. I imagine most Sheiks don't know this so they'd probably grab or something, but if they knew to grab then that would make this run up shield option obsolete quickly, right? Unless you're willing to run up CC or WD back attack I guess?

well theoretically, if you both grab at the same time it should depend on port priority assuming you both touch (but that's super frame perfect bros melee). Since sheik's grab is longer, she will most likely beat you out though.

But yeah, the grab does throw a wrench in the plan but there are still two problems with the plan:
- they are doing a low aerial. Generally getting a low aerial setup is hard with most characters, especially from that close. Most people will be afraid to wait and then aerial with an opponent right in their face. Usually when an opponent gets a low aerial on you, it's because they anticipated that you were going to shield/not attack them at that time. (Well, IMO Marth is an exception because he has so much range, and so much to gain from hitting a tipped f-air and since most characters can't match his range, it gives him an easier time to space and set up)

- they're trying to grab you. If you make them miss a grab up close, then that's a big reward for you. (you could also shine oos, but the frame window is way too tight so I wouldn't risk it).

For #3, run off aerials(particularly Bair) from the platform seem quite problematic in this situation. Do you just rush to cover the run off Bair and then react to whatever they're doing if they didn't run off, or what?

I like this question and am also happy that you asked, because it reminded me of an important detail that I missed.

The main goal here is to get directly underneath her. If they manage to get to their sweetspot b-air distance and are horizontally aligned with you, then there's nothing you can do, unless you try to space around that move specifically. If you are inside that range, then you can CC the b-air, or u-tilt through it. Unfortunately, the platforms give sheik good horizontal movement when she's above you so the usual spacing methods that I use aren't as good.

Here's the important detail that I missed; If you are close enough (let's say under a platform, since sheik is jumping to a platform for the waveland/run off b-air), then it depends on what direction that they were facing when you approach them:

- If they are facing you when they jump, then for them to get the b-air, they have to run above you. I already said that you could have u-tilt, but that's only if you have already WD oos. So if you are still in shield, then when you see them run over you, then you can jump and b-air them if you are still in their space (if you are roughly about half a platform length from where the run off, then you should be fine.

- If they have their back turned when they jump to the platform, then for them to get the b-air, they have to run to the edge of the stage, but you also can't really hit with a move aside from your laser. Still, the good thing is that they're at the edge of the stage, so you can attempt to trap them if you want. If not, then WD back or go for the platform then try a new plan. If they waveland the other direction, then that means that they are facing you while you have your back turned. You can b-air oos coming down assuming you are close enough. You will most likely stuff their f-air, or straight up beat their n-air (if they do n-air for some reason...).

- If they waveland on, then turn around and try to run off. It's still a bit of a commitment. It also gives you time to react and assess the situation. It gives you more time to continue stalking them underneath, but sometimes you may not want to pursue them because you may have reacted too slow or something Y'know?

Responses in bold.

Also, a neat thing to do if you feel you can't do anything while they're coming down is to just laser them as they're coming to the ground (though you all probably know that anyway).

They don't like to move forward....hahaha shoulda known. *facepalm* thanks for the tip.

haha

Most likely getting stuffed by jab seems to make this DD grab tactic ineffective but if you're also CC'ing when you input the grab could you CC punish as well?

yep. Well, if you're below 30% then you can still punish the jab even if you don't CC it, just because you're at low percent.

Really you can beat the Ftilt with an aerial first? Is that possible to do consistently? I had no idea.

yeah, it's doable. the f-tilt comes out on frame 5. It's only 2 frames slower than her grab. The move also starts low (it's kinda like...down + in front) so it takes an extra frame to hit higher.

 

[SiN:Wrath]

Where can i find this mm between pp and hbox? links plox?

 

[Pi]

it was great to watch

 

[JOS.fm]

on yoshi's, what do you guys do when falco's on the ledge, and fox is on the nearest platform waiting? I could show you guys the match where i got completely bodied, but there's nothing to see other than me being shined out of the stage, grabbing the ledge, finding myself in the aforementioned situation, then getting shinespiked after doublejumping onto the platform, phantasm-ing onto the stage, rolling onto the stage, etc.

 

[Pi]

just know that fox cannot reactively cover every option you have from the ledge
stay unpredictable
get up normally, see if he knows that timing
get up attack, roll, invincible side b into the mid of the stage, maybe high laser or something
maybe u can get away w/ letting go and then upbing onto the stage or something idk

all about being unpredictable when ur on the edge

 

[JOS.fm]

yeah, i'll try that.
i did notice that i never tried to stall or anything. my first reaction was always 'get back on the stage!' so as soon as i got on the ledge i tried to get away from it.
thanks!