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PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

Bones0

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Can any other falco player here give their thoughts on falco vs mewtwo? The more high level falcos that can pitch in the faster we can start figuring out mewtwo vs falco.

*11:00 p.m Edit- No replies still? Never mind. I'm just going to make a thread for this matchup instead. I thought this might be a good place to ask but if its too off topic or something I understand.
There are no decent Mewtwo mains outside of Taj, so how is anyone supposed to give input on a mu they've never played?

Hey guys, I just thought of something. You know how you can't really D-throw into waveshine because they'll just tech the throw to the side and get too far away? Well what if you did it near the edge of the stage? If they tech'd towards the ledge, then you could waveshine them, right after the throw right? If this became a common combo, then we could start predicting that they won't go towards the ledge out of a down throw, making it easier to predict what they'll do.
If they are near an edge, they can just not tech and DI towards it to bounce off the platform/stage. However, characters with low traction like Peach can sometimes be dthrown so that they are too far from the edge to bounce off, but close enough that their tech options are limited. Unfortunately, you usually won't be able to cover all the options on reaction; even covering one or two on reaction is extremely difficult because of Falco's slow dash speed and the various DI/tech combinations.
 

L33thal

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What should Falco do against heavy platform/dash dancing camping (reverse of Westballz vs. Armada TBH4)?

A lot of people play like that against me and I've tried baiting with fake aerials, spamming bair, going under them, and trying to read their jumps, but they always run away.

Only solution that works is spamming laser, but when I do that people get super salty and say that all I do is laser camp (even though they won't even approach unless it's 100% favorable for them...).
 

orvs

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What should Falco do against heavy platform/dash dancing camping (reverse of Westballz vs. Armada TBH4)?

A lot of people play like that against me and I've tried baiting with fake aerials, spamming bair, going under them, and trying to read their jumps, but they always run away.

Only solution that works is spamming laser, but when I do that people get super salty and say that all I do is laser camp (even though they won't even approach unless it's 100% favorable for them...).
people feel the same way when i start using the laser a lot more. but you know what? just do it. people say that laser camping is so lame, but it's done to stop people from other forms of camping. so is lasering actually lame?
 
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Bones0

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People will always find stuff to complain about, especially stuff that helps you beat them. I'd advise against developing your play style around their johns.

More specifically, while lasering is good, you can honestly probably get more by trying to read their movement. When people camp like this, they heavily restrict themselves and become extremely predictable. If they do the same pattern over and over, FH near them to see how they react. If they DJ away, then you can fall back to the ground, wait a little, then FH again and read the DJ. You can simply raw shine them, or if they're at higher percents you can just bair. Doing a slightly rising nair/dair can be a good way of cutting off multiple options, just be careful to make sure you will land out of their punish range if you don't hit/they shield it.

No one in the cast is capable of camping Falco forever, even without lasers. Be patient. They are giving you a risk-free way of observing and absorbing their habits and tendencies, so take it. One of the main weaknesses of spacies is that they have a very limited time to adapt to neutral because they get punished so hard whereas a Peach or Samus can get hit 10+ times in neutral during their first stock and develop a very good idea of their opponent's gameplan.
 

alphabattack

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IdkLmao

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There are no decent Mewtwo mains outside of Taj, so how is anyone supposed to give input on a mu they've never played?
I don't mean this in a bad way, but i'm not really sure how to respond to this. I don't think the lack of mewtwo main experience qualifies as a deciding factor in making it impossible to suggest anything that could lead to helpful information. Despite not having personally battled a serious mewtwo i'm confident some of you guys could manage to find ideas and suggestions for the matchup. Especially somebody like yourself who is really into frame data with tons of tournament experience etc. If all that extra intuitive experience couldn't come up with even the beginning of a good idea for the MU i'd be really surprised.

If thats a little bit much of wishful thinking on my part, my b.


But my mistake is that i've under estimated how much work and calculation i'm asking others to go through for a character they aren't interested in analyzing. Its ok though. I think i'll just wait and see if I want to make a thread for this at some point down the road and drop the mewtwo discussion here.
 
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alphabattack

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I have my own separate way to watch my videos, I was just hoping for some outside opinions to get some varied inputs.
 

Bones0

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I don't mean this in a bad way, but i'm not really sure how to respond to this. I don't think the lack of mewtwo main experience qualifies as a deciding factor in making it impossible to suggest anything that could lead to helpful information. Despite not having personally battled a serious mewtwo i'm confident some of you guys could manage to find ideas and suggestions for the matchup. Especially somebody like yourself who is really into frame data with tons of tournament experience etc. If all that extra intuitive experience couldn't come up with even the beginning of a good idea for the MU i'd be really surprised.

If thats a little bit much of wishful thinking on my part, my b.


But my mistake is that i've under estimated how much work and calculation i'm asking others to go through for a character they aren't interested in analyzing. Its ok though. I think i'll just wait and see if I want to make a thread for this at some point down the road and drop the mewtwo discussion here.
Well you said something about trying to "figure out" the matchup, not get a rough idea of how it should be played. It really just seemed something suited for the Mewtwo boards as they're going to know the mu better than any Falco.

But w/e, I'll bite as far as theory crafting goes. If I went up against a Mewtwo (keeping in mind I have no prior experience), I'd be extremely conscientious of getting grabbed because Mewtwo's tech chasing and punishes in general seem solid vs. Falco. I'd also be extremely wary when trying to edgeguard because of how good teleport is. I would try edgehogging and doing a ledge stand (similar to Sheik edgeguarding), but if that didn't seem to work out I'd probably start just giving them a free recovery.

In neutral, Mewtwo has a good WD, but lacks attack speed/priority. Knowing this, I'd use lasers to lock down his WD movement as best as possible, and then kinda just spam safe aerials/utilts in his face until he runs into one. I might also consider grabbing worthwhile since he is pretty light and floaty so I could get some decent followups and possibly KOs off the top. Mewtwo's other main weakness, being a DJC character, seems to be his vertical mobility. This means I can exercise a lot of FH abuse, especially on the stages with a top plat.
 

IdkLmao

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Thanks for the matchup help bones0.

I should take my own advice and get caught up on what we already know with mewtwo though before asking anymore questions. Because of that and not wanting to get this thread offtopic i'll stop discussing mewtwo here after this post and bring up the discussion in a more appropriate place at some point after i'm caught up.
 
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Oskurito

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@ Bones0 Bones0 I've heard you had a pretty close set vs westballz, how was it? is it going to get uploaded to yt?

I saw you vs DJ on stream and I think the nerves got you and you were choking. Tech flubs all over the place, dissapoint :(
 

BTmoney

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Is aerial->shine-> auto cancel fade away bair
Strictly better on shield in terms of frame +/- compared to faded away nair or dair?
I'm thinking yes it feels like you simply land with more time to act then compared to the L canceled version of the other two. And it's easier to get a nice clean fadeaway


also, another instance of the laser thing (for pettiness' sake, but at the same time it's something that's already be used in an arguably less optimal way)
https://youtu.be/Wsrc1tHIjfc?t=11m14s
 
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Bones0

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@ Bones0 Bones0 I've heard you had a pretty close set vs westballz, how was it? is it going to get uploaded to yt?

I saw you vs DJ on stream and I think the nerves got you and you were choking. Tech flubs all over the place, dissapoint :(
He just played bad. He didn't john about it, but he showed up at the venue with a pillow and slept most of the time so I know he was tired af. lol It wasn't recorded.

I wasn't really nervous, or at least not enough for it to have affected my play. I just have really inconsistent punishes on spacies. I need more experience vs. them so I can get used to dealing with human DI. Too often I start a combo in a way I'm not familiar with so I either don't know how to follow up properly or don't realize the proper course of action quickly enough. It's hard to absorb the nuance of long FFer combos through videos.
 

Oskurito

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He just played bad. He didn't john about it, but he showed up at the venue with a pillow and slept most of the time so I know he was tired af. lol It wasn't recorded.

I wasn't really nervous, or at least not enough for it to have affected my play. I just have really inconsistent punishes on spacies. I need more experience vs. them so I can get used to dealing with human DI. Too often I start a combo in a way I'm not familiar with so I either don't know how to follow up properly or don't realize the proper course of action quickly enough. It's hard to absorb the nuance of long FFer combos through videos.
Oh well..

I think I'll try to give some advice, hopefully some of of the ideas are useful for you. Just try to stick to basics is good in my experience, I have a couple of steps for comboing FFers. On flat ground is always safe to just shine dair x2 then nair + dsmash, simple. You can extend this with fair/soft bair/weak upair to shine (the zhu thing) instead of nair + dsmash, but then it's harder to follow up, it's pretty much free style on that point (at least for me). Also don't forget up throw cheapos like up throw + nair/soft bair pseudo cg or even just up throw + fsmash.

On platforms, If I get a shine on a side platform, I shine again, if they're super low or dair shine them if they are low(%wise) enough and I feel that I can get it without pushing them off the platform. If they DI towards the center platform, I shine them again, if they don't di I keep them with uptilt/up smash/upair until they di away then I try nair/softbair/or just dair which depending on the percent I can follow with shine.

Basically, to make it all simple, if you get a shine on a side platform and they don't DI you want to juggle them with uptilt/upsmash/upai. If they DI towards the center just get another shine or if they end up to low you can sometimes shine jump then uptilt or just come down with dair shine or any aerial + shine/uptilt/dtilt or even grab depending on position. If they DI off stage try to kick them off with fmash/bair/dair. If you are on the top platform and they DI away you can come down with an aerial to either kick them off or keep going on the side platform, if they don't DI just juggle them as usual with uptilts or upairs. Make sure your dashing is on point because usually you're going to have to turn around a lot and you don't want to get stuck in your dash.

This sick combo of mine demostrates some of my ideas (on platforms):
 

OninO

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Mechanically, are you c-sticking those bairs or using the A button? I'm having a lot of trouble getting the bair out quickly so it goes soft in time (I usually end up connecting with the early/hard hitbox on the body).
 

Oskurito

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I always use the stick when I use an aerial attack and I want to move forward or backwards at the same time (except for nair). I have some exceptions like, shine bair or shine turn around bair. Also, when trying to hit someone on a platform with up air, I usually use the controller stick because I find is easier for me to move just the right amount of space while doing the up air. I use the c-stick to up air if I want to move further and I feel like I need to reach that position quickly.

For the bair specifically, if you want to get the soft hit you want the bair to come asap and hit a split of second after it (kind of like you would do if you want to hit with doc's strong nair), so is not only quickness but timing with the proper spacing because if you're on top of them is harder not to hit them right away. You can do a similar thing with nair, but nair is slower and a bit stronger.
 

orvs

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yo

if marth lands a short hop fair on a falco, does it confirm into a grab? or can falco di away and/or down and then buffer a roll/spotdodge before the grab? this is in a situation where falco is at a very low percent (0%-20%,) and is not crouch cancelling.
 

MadeYouLook

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How do you guys like to implement pivots into your game ? Ive been told to up tilt pivot and back air vs aggro opponents do you do this ? Im not sure how to pivot uptilt unfortunately.

Another question. When watching a top Fox what things do you try to look for to carry over ? I can at least DI pretty similarly to them I think. Maybe some concepts of when to use certain moves probably carry over ?
 

Bones0

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How do you guys like to implement pivots into your game ? Ive been told to up tilt pivot and back air vs aggro opponents do you do this ? Im not sure how to pivot uptilt unfortunately.

Another question. When watching a top Fox what things do you try to look for to carry over ? I can at least DI pretty similarly to them I think. Maybe some concepts of when to use certain moves probably carry over ?
I've never seen anyone consistently use pivot utilts. More likely, the person was trying to tell you to use turnaround utilt, which is much simpler and also really useful for stuffing approaches. Same goes for autocancel bairs. Westballz utilizes these tools a ton. Watch his sets vs. top Foxes, especially aggressive ones.

There isn't much you can pull from Foxes that will directly apply to Falco. They have similar hitboxes on their moves, but their overall gameplay is fundamentally very different. Anyone playing Falco like a Fox player or vice versa is going to be playing extremely inefficiently and ineffectively. There are plenty of Falco vids to study for most matchups though, even if there's not many different Falco mains.
 

Smog

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I need help with the peach matchup. Everytime I get hit I feel like I am off stage, and then just get edgeguarded. Punishing her Dsmash is super hard. Her fair is crazy to avoid when she has stage control. Edgeguarding her can be really hard. And comboing he is tough sometimes.
 

MadeYouLook

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I've never seen anyone consistently use pivot utilts. More likely, the person was trying to tell you to use turnaround utilt, which is much simpler and also really useful for stuffing approaches. Same goes for autocancel bairs. Westballz utilizes these tools a ton. Watch his sets vs. top Foxes, especially aggressive ones.

There isn't much you can pull from Foxes that will directly apply to Falco. They have similar hitboxes on their moves, but their overall gameplay is fundamentally very different. Anyone playing Falco like a Fox player or vice versa is going to be playing extremely inefficiently and ineffectively. There are plenty of Falco vids to study for most matchups though, even if there's not many different Falco mains.
thanks bones

its frustrating as a newer player because everyone throws out the word pivot and I never know if they mean a real pivot or just a turnaround or something
 
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MadeYouLook

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Besides shine grab (which I do a lot) what are the most important shield pressures I should be using? dair/nair shines? they just feel so unsafe to me. Do multishines and double shine wavedash down get easier on shield after learning them off shield? Ive gotten close to getting decent at both but they just feel so difficult when I add shields into the mix.
 

Bones0

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Besides shine grab (which I do a lot) what are the most important shield pressures I should be using? dair/nair shines? they just feel so unsafe to me. Do multishines and double shine wavedash down get easier on shield after learning them off shield? Ive gotten close to getting decent at both but they just feel so difficult when I add shields into the mix.
You shouldn't be doing pressure for the sake of hitting shields with moves. Your goal should be to catch OoS options, poke, condition them for future pressure situations, and sometimes you are only able to wear down their shield so that if they roll or do some safe OoS option you can't directly punish, you are able to poke or keep them scared of shielding immediately after. A good example of the last one is if you have a Marth trapped near the ledge. Even if you late nair-shine-early fadeaway nair and reset to neutral, you address all of the uses of pressure. You threaten to hit any OoS option they do, you can sometimes poke Marth's head with the retreating nair, he is conditioned to keep shielding the next time you SHFFL at him, and worst case scenario, he is left with a smaller shield and is still trapped at the ledge.

You should always practice pressure on shielding opponents in 20xx because shields add hitlag which can affect the timing of your attacks. If you do a pressure sequence at a timing that works on shield, it will also work on the empty air in case they dodge or shield DI away. The same is not true of the reverse.
 

V_x_I_D

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I have a question!

When going for a pillar against a shielded opponent, I'll hit with the dair, Fast fall, L cancel, but before I can get my shine out I get grabbed.
Am I doing something wrong?
 

ChivalRuse

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Exactly. You need to optimize the shieldstun to landing lag ratio such that there is not a sufficient frame gap to act before your shine. By activating your dair not instantaneously after jumping, but, instead, as you are nearly about to land, the hitbox will connect with their shield very close to your landing time, allowing you to be "safe" via an immediate shine upon landing.
 
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OninO

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Yeah, what Bones said, the previous page has the details but basically you should be fast falling before the dair connects. (You also shouldn't dair peoples shields 9/10 anyway).
 

anshin

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when i try to do a dash shl i sometimes do a reverse laser. what's causing that and how do i fix it?
 

Bones0

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when i try to do a dash shl i sometimes do a reverse laser. what's causing that and how do i fix it?
If you're using a new controller, sometimes when you press left or right, the stick's spring is so powerful that it actually flicks back in the opposite direction when you let it go, which can cause reversed moves. It should go away as you break in the controller more.
 

Stride

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when i try to do a dash shl i sometimes do a reverse laser. what's causing that and how do i fix it?
If you're using a new controller, sometimes when you press left or right, the stick's spring is so powerful that it actually flicks back in the opposite direction when you let it go, which can cause reversed moves. It should go away as you break in the controller more.
It can also happen with extremely loose sticks, since you have to flick them so forcefully to dash.
 
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anshin

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well the controller im using is pretty old and it only recently started happening so i think the stick is too loose. can you tighten a stick? i've been trying to keep my thumb on it the entire im doing the laser instead of letting go like i used too but i keep on doing side-b's ughhhh
 

Oskurito

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well the controller im using is pretty old and it only recently started happening so i think the stick is too loose. can you tighten a stick? i've been trying to keep my thumb on it the entire im doing the laser instead of letting go like i used too but i keep on doing side-b's ughhhh
I can relate to this.

There's a "How to fix your controller thread" here on the forums but, chances are, you 're probably not going to be able to fully fix it anyways, so there's a higher chance (imo) that is time for you to get a new controller.
 
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