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PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

Battlecow

Play to Win
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I'm looking forward to PP's thoughts. It's pretty clear now that he was absolutely wrong about mango vs. Armada; I honestly thought 5 hours ago that Armada had no chance whatsoever of winning.

I really hope that this motivates PP to try hard, get better, and win the next one. He's been trying hard already, but... he's gonna need something new. The worst thing that could happen would be for him to get discouraged and for Mango to continue not giving a ****.
 

Fågelholken

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 1, 2010
Messages
101
I'm looking forward to PP's thoughts. It's pretty clear now that he was absolutely wrong about mango vs. Armada; I honestly thought 5 hours ago that Armada had no chance whatsoever of winning.

I really hope that this motivates PP to try hard, get better, and win the next one. He's been trying hard already, but... he's gonna need something new. The worst thing that could happen would be for him to get discouraged and for Mango to continue not giving a ****.
So much this!

And I ****ing love PP, it really broke my heart to see him defeated like that. But it was for a purpose, a lot of things dawned on the community today.

PP, keep training and keep caring as much as you do, you're not far from that number one spot.
 

Fortress | Sveet

▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
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the fsbrbr is the back room of the fashion sense back room. Thats where we laugh at the normal members of the fsbr who think they actually have a say in the output of the fsbr. There was a fsbrbrbr, but its devolved into KirbyKaze and Kage arguing over who was the cutest member of the backstreet boys, at which point we all left and changed the name to KK+K. [Censored] confused it with the KKK and briefly detained them and inevitably stripped them of all ability to objectively discuss fashion. Now only the fsbrbr remains.
 

Warhawk

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And Armada just seemed at a whole different level than anyone else at this one. PP thought Mango would **** him, surprisingly it went the opposite way.
Even though he got 3-0'd I don't feel like Armada ***** Mang0. Two of the matches I felt like Mang0 actually had good control and just threw it away at the end. The third match yea he kinda got whooped on if I remember correctly.

I do feel that Mang0's reign is over though. Even if he wins every tournament from here on it should be noted that he reigned two seperate times as his crown was taken since probably Genesis II, something I didn't feel was true when all the people seemed convinced that PP had taken over Mang0's reign.
 

Merkuri

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Even though he got 3-0'd I don't feel like Armada ***** Mang0. Two of the matches I felt like Mang0 actually had good control and just threw it away at the end. The third match yea he kinda got whooped on if I remember correctly.

I do feel that Mang0's reign is over though. Even if he wins every tournament from here on it should be noted that he reigned two seperate times as his crown was taken since probably Genesis II, something I didn't feel was true when all the people seemed convinced that PP had taken over Mang0's reign.
A few things. Yes, I feel like Armada is clearly the best right now, and he is currently the best in the world. And yes Mango's reign is over. As for PP taking over Mango's reign, I feel like that already came and pass. There was a point where PP was pretty much invincible, he won Rom2, Wintergames fest 11 and Pound V in a row. He was the best in the America, but I feel like he has reached his peak, and he can't get the top spot anymore. He'll always be a favorite for top 5 in tournaments, but from now on I expect to see him losing to more and more players, Javi being a prime example(just the same Mango will start losing to more players, just like he lost to Hungrybox)

Post MLG, we had Mango's reign, then Hbox's reign, Drpp's reign and now Armada's reign(yes, some of them were short, and really Hbox and Drpp only reigned because Mango was inactive, but whatever)

Also really looking forward to PP's thoughts.
 

Van.

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imo we can make it official-- armada > mango

mango was discouraged/demotivated after WF's and lost focus against hbox, allowing him to advance

hbox began to crack the code in GF's tho'. hbox really proved that he's still nothing to **** with, and that he can be the best in the world on any given day

javi got exposed because its very probable that he had never played a puff who knew how to wavedash before the hbox set. he was better than he showed in that set

hbox was the best available challenger for armada, and its good and proper that he got to GF's

but MAYBE, just maybe, Javi > Armada.

the rest of Europe got absolutely exposed, with embarassing performances from amsah, leffen, and ice

It breaks my heart to seee pp lose two close, winnable matches/sets in a row to eliminate him. He's better than he showed today, and as demoralizing as it can be i hoope he comes out hard next time. He's such a stand-up guy, noone could be unhappy with him winning every tourney ever

thats my take
 

t3h Icy

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I don't think it would be absolutely amazing if Javi could beat Armada; he is the furthest in the metagame with Fox, and if Tuga gave him the Falco practice for PeePee, EX may be enough practice to know Peach. However, it is Armada and I still think no Fox can beat him.

Even if Javi did beat him, we'd just have Javi > Armada > HBox > Javi, and Armada would still be considered the best since he wins.

Also fun fact: Mango learned shield pressure from Javi. (Source)

Javi has been ahead of the Fox metagame for years, and I was a bit skeptical he would be rusty and other have caught up, but DAMN, he's still by far the best Fox main. Best Fox may still be Mango though, I don't know.

Even though he got 3-0'd I don't feel like Armada ***** Mang0.
lol...
 

Merkuri

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I just rewatched Javi vs DrPeepee(it's saved on Twitchtv) and I have to say that Javi is frickin incredible. Peepee pretty much wasn't able to shield pressure him at all because he shined out of everything, he used the shine like something of a cross between Marth counter and (Brawl) Olimanar's whistle. He was SHINING INSTEAD OF SHIELDING and that blows my mind. So many times you'll see Peepee attack and just get pushed back by the shine. Fox players can learn a lot from Javi, definitely the best Fox main right now.

I don't think it would be absolutely amazing if Javi could beat Armada; he is the furthest in the metagame with Fox, and if Tuga gave him the Falco practice for PeePee, EX may be enough practice to know Peach. However, it is Armada and I still think no Fox can beat him.

Even if Javi did beat him, we'd just have Javi > Armada > HBox > Javi, and Armada would still be considered the best since he wins.
Well if Javi did in fact beat Amrada(which I doubt) then i don't see why Armada would still be considered the best. It just means if Armada takes out Hbox in winners, then Javi beats Armada, then Armada beats Hbox in losers, and Javi beats Armada again in winners. It'd be a toss up. But again, I think Armada would beat Javi.
 

Druggedfox

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After playing him I'm pretty convinced that he's very good, but that he's just ridiculously hard to beat the first time you play him. I know it's just friendlies but all the people that played him in a second set did significantly better (read: in many cases, won) after adjusting.

Also the way apex was run with sunday 9 am brackets, no warm up time, and no melee the day beforehand made the results of this tournament ridiculously weird; it won't happen again >_>
 

xianglongfa

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Thoughts about PP Armada Set

I think a lot of people in this thread went braindead and forgot how close PP's matches against Armada were despite the 3-1 set count. I first thought that PP did horribly in stagepicks, but when I finally thought through everything, stagestriking started making a lot more sense.

Yoshi's really limits falcos options, makes it harder for him to escape zoning, platforms let him get combo'd harder and shorter horizontal lets peach get falco offstage and edgeguard him much easier. On larger stages a CC d-smash for example at mid percents could be DI'd somewhat and teched on stage out of peach's immediate followup range. The only real advantage I see on Yoshi's for falco v. peach is the early shine kill, dair combo's from side platforms; I really don't believe that the impact of either of those advantages makes up for all those deficits, given how well Armada was DIing this tournament.

FD grants PP his movement options but no platforms to work with and Peach's CG that Armada's never really going to mess up.

With the neutrals at Apex, I honestly expected the stagestriking to end up putting 1st match on BF or Dreamland if Kevin strikes FD and FoD, but I guess Armada figured also that PP was going to like Yoshi's the least (if my analysis holds any water)

FD CP 3rd match was prbly b/c PP banned FoD and I see that as a reasonable decision as well.

4th match BF was a reasonable pick for PP as well given DSR for PS.

In terms of how this set differed from pound 5, it was obvious to me that Armada was more knowledgable about how to DI falco's combos. A lot of the time I felt like Armada knew what PP was going for and PP that was surprised that Armada wasn't DIing in a certain way.

Another thing that I think everyone can agree with is that Armada got cornered and baited far less in this set than in the P5 set. He often read when PP was doing movement off the laser to retain stage control and exert 'safe' pressure like laser DD and nairshine wd back and AC bair, and was getting baited very few times for it. Not only did he not fall for many of these safe baits, he often put himself in a better position off of a strong read. Armada read so many obvious AC bairs and punished with WD OOS back and dash attack to catch falco whiffing.

Random Side Note

One last insight that I can recall off the top of my head is that Europe had a much more refined shield game than US players do in general. I say this not just because a lot of their top players are great at handling falco's laser game without doing as many risky approaches(PS lasers etc.), but also b/c some of them like Armada have great shield DI and use of light shield in defense against spacies. Even in their OOS game, European sheiks seem to be more super frame tight in their nair-oos game. These top EU players really seem to make these details a huge focus in their game and I think would really pay off for some of our scene to focus more heavily on these aspects.
 

Redd

thataintfalco.com
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After playing him I'm pretty convinced that he's very good, but that he's just ridiculously hard to beat the first time you play him. I know it's just friendlies but all the people that played him in a second set did significantly better (read: in many cases, won) after adjusting.

Also the way apex was run with sunday 9 am brackets, no warm up time, and no melee the day beforehand made the results of this tournament ridiculously weird; it won't happen again >_>
This this THIS a thousand times. Weird as ****.
 

Beat!

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wth, this is exactly what everyone said after genesis, except for at mango. This thread likes to cater to the latest results and nothing more.
Yeah, because Armada didn't win Genesis 2 or anything.

Come on, are you ****ing serious? Armada has outplaced Mango for a year and a half, and that's without Mango even coming to Europe and doing the same thing Armada does.

Armada ****ing destroyed Mango, and is the better player without a doubt.
 

-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
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Yo PP HAD ARMADA. Without that tech flaw that cost him the set he would have been going to match 5 with a lot of momentum and fd already out of the way. Next time kev!!

:phone:
 

SSBMLahti

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Javi actually grabbed Mango out of his shield pressure. Not even Mango could really pressure Javi as he would get out of easily with a shine.

I was really hoping Mango would have went Falco against Armada though :awesome:
 

FoxLisk

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looked to me like PP was letting his emotions get the better of him. he played a little too recklessly when he was ahead, i think.
 

Merkuri

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They were both pretty on point to me, I'm not johning for pp. the set could have gone either way.

:phone:
Armada was pretty much in control the entire time. Yeah, it could have gone either way but it was always far far more likely to go in Armada's favor. I don't think PP can beat Armada anymore.
 

Blistering Speed

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Armada was pretty much in control the entire time. Yeah, it could have gone either way but it was always far far more likely to go in Armada's favor. I don't think PP can beat Armada anymore.
It was much, much closer than you're making it out to be. Numerous matches in the set were tense as ****.
 

Merkuri

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It was much, much closer than you're making it out to be. Numerous matches in the set were tense as ****.
they were tense as **** because we were watching candidates for the title of the world's best, play each other live. Rewatch the set and you'll see it wasn't all that close. PP was playing at Armada's pace. That being said, forgive me if it sounded like I was implying that he got *****, as that is not what happened.
 

ruhtraeel

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Ok so Canada wins 64, Europe wins Melee, Japan wins Brawl. US gotta pick up their game lol

Ok it is established that Armada is the most consistent and therefore best player in the world, better than Mango. Nobody can dispute this anymore.

Javi is the best Fox I have ever seen. He has the smarts of Jman with the tech skill of at least SW, and he knows how to use it. I can imagine how jealous Jman is right now, as Javi pretty much stomped on PP.

It seems the more south you go, the more fast and technical smash becomes, and the more north you go, the more methodical it becomes. Javi being right in the middle, happens to have both!

:phone:
 

-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
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Nah merkuri you're 100% wrong lol. PP had momentum and was damn close to sealing the deal before that missed waveland cost him the se. It more than likely would have been 2-2 then and there's no telling what would have happened match 5. Armada wasn't exactly in control of the match while he was getting dair spiked offstage, so I don't see how you can say he had control the entire set lol.
 

Veetaak

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I think people should look more at Shiz's falco style when playing foxes. I do think Falco can gimp fox alot more than people do if mixing up properly just like shiz does. Killing a fox at 40-60% is so beneficial for Falco if he wants to keep up with Fox without having a better player play him

BTW, so happy to see shiz do his thing with Falco at apex
 

Veetaak

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It means I think Fox has the upper hand in the match-up if he is the only one who gimps

I know every falco gimps a fox now and then with dair and stuff but I think there is untapped potential in falcos gimping gme against fox

I edited it a bit to make it more clear
 

ruhtraeel

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And I think against such a solid fast player like Javi, playing methodically like PP does just won't cut it. You can do it against players like Shiz, since he has obvious flaws you can exploit. But against Javi, I think instead of punishing his style, you simply have to play equally as fast and as technical, like Mango did. IMO PP just couldn't keep up, and he tried to find openings to pressure, but just got rejected over and over again.

:phone:
 

Bonsai

Smash Cadet
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Jun 23, 2009
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Yo guys, I have a question which doesn't relate to PP's play at apex, so sorry bout that.
But:
How do you tech Fox's shine in a way that you also cover that instead of shining, they grab?
So for example, the Fox dairs you and you expect either a shine or a grab after it.
For the shine you would like to tech it, for the grab you would like to buffer roll/spot dodge.
Is it possible to input these both simultaneously?
(And maybe even smash DI the dair at the same time as well? lol)
 

Merkuri

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It seems the more south you go, the more fast and technical smash becomes, and the more north you go, the more methodical it becomes. Javi being right in the middle, happens to have both!

:phone:
Lol, that sounds exactly like football(soccer). Not sure how true that it is considering that Armada is one of the most technical players I've ever seen, but then again it's safe to say that he is an outlier.
 
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