PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[AvengerAngel]

There's nothing "gay" in the Puff match-up, or nothing "gayer" than any other MU.
Fox camping on platforms, spamming Nair/Bair to keep you away, chain grabbing you from 0 to death on FD is gay.
Marth's gimps are gay. Chaingrabs? Gay. His big range and his nonsensical grab range? Omg gay.
Peach's Dsmash is gay. Chaingrabs? Gay. Once you are out of the stage you're dead = gay. Her crouch game = gay.

And the list goes on and on. Ban Melee plz.


(You said Falco has to camp hard, get a single hit and then run away etc. That's the proof you don't understand the MU well. I suggest you study PP/Mango vs. HBox vids and try to understand what they're doing and why they're doing it; and you'll notice that Puff gets punished very hard if she ever commits to something wrong/unnecessary, as any other character)

 

[Bones0]

Falcon tech chase kneed me at 60% and I die.

Gay.

Ganon dthrow jabs as I DI away and I die.

Gay.

KirbyKaze shield grabs me out of a double shine and I die.

Gay.



I think "gay" is really just the new "****."

"Damn dude, that combo you had was so gay."
"Yo, that read was gay, bro."
"That recovery was mad gay. I didn't expect it at all."

 

[ruhtraeel]

Alright so the next time I illusion stall camp out the next Puff and they complain, I'll slap them in the face.

 

[ShroudedOne]

There's nothing "gay" in the Puff match-up, or nothing "gayer" than any other MU.
Fox camping on platforms, spamming Nair/Bair to keep you away, chain grabbing you from 0 to death on FD is gay.
Marth's gimps are gay. Chaingrabs? Gay. His big range and his nonsensical grab range? Omg gay.
Peach's Dsmash is gay. Chaingrabs? Gay. Once you are out of the stage you're dead = gay. Her crouch game = gay.

And the list goes on and on. Ban Melee plz.


(You said Falco has to camp hard, get a single hit and then run away etc. That's the proof you don't understand the MU well. I suggest you study PP/Mango vs. HBox vids and try to understand what they're doing and why they're doing it; and you'll notice that Puff gets punished very hard if she ever commits to something wrong/unnecessary, as any other character)

Peach's down smash is rather overrated, but yeah, you're right. At the very least, the top 8-11 characters in this game can be considered "gay" (although we should stop using that word, really...)

 

[KirbyKaze]

You know you liked it when I shield-grabbed your second shine.

 

[Bonsai]

There's nothing "gay" in the Puff match-up, or nothing "gayer" than any other MU.
Fox camping on platforms, spamming Nair/Bair to keep you away, chain grabbing you from 0 to death on FD is gay.
Marth's gimps are gay. Chaingrabs? Gay. His big range and his nonsensical grab range? Omg gay.
Peach's Dsmash is gay. Chaingrabs? Gay. Once you are out of the stage you're dead = gay. Her crouch game = gay.

And the list goes on and on. Ban Melee plz.


(You said Falco has to camp hard, get a single hit and then run away etc. That's the proof you don't understand the MU well. I suggest you study PP/Mango vs. HBox vids and try to understand what they're doing and why they're doing it; and you'll notice that Puff gets punished very hard if she ever commits to something wrong/unnecessary, as any other character)

alright, I'm personally just annoyed by playing a campy (and that's CAMPY) puff. Okay, getting a single hit is not true, puff definitely gets comboed (and I didn't say to run away after that, but a campy puff will run away from you and camp again, forcing you to laser and stay in the middle of the stage. I'm not THAT good at the matchup though so there is some salt in my posts about that). In PP vs. Hbox vids, Hbox doesn't actually play wack. In mango vs. hbox vids, mango goes fox and I already said you can't really complain about that matchup.

My main point is that melee suffers from **** like extreme camping 'to win'. I'm not saying don't do it (because I don't have the right to tell anyone that), but I am annoyed with it. This is what I originally posted about. I have nothing against Puff in general. I just dislike extreme camping, because it's like playing brawl.

 

[ruhtraeel]

KirbyKaze shield grabs me out of a double shine and I die.

If KK does it to you it's mad straight

trollface

 

[AvengerAngel]

Yeah, I was just trying to make my point clear lol. Calling something "gay" won't win matches for you. Just study your opponent's character's weaknesses and work around them.

Also Puff doesn't really benefit from camping against top tiers. All of them have projectiles and/or ridiculous hitboxes to **** her if she doesn't try to get momentum/stage control somehow. I think the spacies and Sheik have way better tools to camp with :x
No Puff is so campy that it makes the game annoying (except for Tero and Smasher89, but they got ***** for it anyway lol). Hungrybox doesn't camp at all lol. Actually it's Armada CAMPING against HBox, but for some reason HBox gets all the hate D:

 

[ShroudedOne]

alright, I'm personally just annoyed by playing a campy (and that's CAMPY) puff.

So we've got this. But then you say this:

My main point is that melee suffers from **** like extreme camping 'to win'.

Can you explain why Melee, an independent entity, suffers from something that you personally (as you stated above) dislike? You do realize that you can't make an argument for Melee suffering from campy play, because that implies that campy play is somehow bad. It's slower, and more about zoning and attrition than it is getting in someone's face, sure. But that doesn't make the game itself, or the scene, or anything relating to Melee bad simply because you don't like it.

I just dislike extreme camping, because it's like playing brawl.

Firstly, using anti-Brawl sentiments to back up your subjective preferences doesn't explain why campy play is bad. It just relates it to Brawl (which, GASP, isn't a terrible game). Do you know why Brawl isn't better than Melee? It isn't because it's a campier game, because Melee is a defensive/campy game as well. It's because Brawl doesn't allow you to play in different ways like Melee. This is because of a lack of movement options (i.e. wavedashing) that limit the number of ways you can play.


The fact that we can have super aggro and super campy BOTH in one game is what makes Melee amazing. And to take that out, or to even suggest that somehow it's less legitimate than playing in a more interesting way, would be the thing that ruined Melee.

As a closing point, there are people (mind you, a minority, but they exist) who prefer slower, campy matches to fast-paced ones. They like playing them as well as watching them. Fly Amanita is one for sure that I know of. So to essentially say:

"I find campy play annoying, therefore it is ruining Melee"

Means that everyone who disagrees with you is, in effect, ruining Melee. And that isn't a fair accusation to make. :\

I understand that you don't like playing against it, playing in that way, or watching it, but a diverse number of playstyles will do the opposite of ruining Melee. And I apologize for the long post...

 

[Bonsai]

So we've got this. But then you say this:


Can you explain why Melee, an independent entity, suffers from something that you personally (as you stated above) dislike? You do realize that you can't make an argument for Melee suffering from campy play, because that implies that campy play is somehow bad. It's slower, and more about zoning and attrition than it is getting in someone's face, sure. But that doesn't make the game itself, or the scene, or anything relating to Melee bad simply because you don't like it.

Armada vs. Hbox is my explanation. I don't think a lot of people enjoyed watching that.

Firstly, using anti-Brawl sentiments to back up your subjective preferences doesn't explain why campy play is bad. It just relates it to Brawl (which, GASP, isn't a terrible game). Do you know why Brawl isn't better than Melee? It isn't because it's a campier game, because Melee is a defensive/campy game as well. It's because Brawl doesn't allow you to play in different ways like Melee. This is because of a lack of movement options (i.e. wavedashing) that limit the number of ways you can play.


The fact that we can have super aggro and super campy BOTH in one game is what makes Melee amazing. And to take that out, or to even suggest that somehow it's less legitimate than playing in a more interesting way, would be the thing that ruined Melee.

As a closing point, there are people (mind you, a minority, but they exist) who prefer slower, campy matches to fast-paced ones. They like playing them as well as watching them. Fly Amanita is one for sure that I know of. So to essentially say:

"I find campy play annoying, therefore it is ruining Melee"

Means that everyone who disagrees with you is, in effect, ruining Melee. And that isn't a fair accusation to make. :\

I understand that you don't like playing against it, playing in that way, or watching it, but a diverse number of playstyles will do the opposite of ruining Melee. And I apologize for the long post...

You're right in that 'it's ruining melee' is too outspoken.

I'll restate it: 'it's killing melee for me and a (fairly large?) group of people'.

And maybe the word ruining or killing is too extreme as well, and I should be talking about a 'negative impact' on melee.

And your explanation about brawl not being a bad game seems spot on to me. There's me just being a salty ********.

btw, me posting so much about it kinda blows my opinion out of proportion lol. Don't wanna make it seem like it's MELEE APOCALYPSE to me heh

 

[KirbyKaze]

Camping is part of the game. It's just not good for the spectators. Or fun to practice.

 

[Bonsai]

Camping is part of the game. It's just not good for the spectators. Or fun to practice.

Or fun to play like.
that's what I'm saying.
it just annoys me that it is the way it is and I'm just here expressing that. I don't think it's gonna change anything.

anyway, done for now lol! don't wanna come off as a hater so here's some love for everyone here <3

 

[ruhtraeel]

Camping is part of the game. It's just not good for the spectators. Or fun to practice.

Yeah.

So bonsai, if you don't like the way someone is playing, then play in a way that the other person doesn't like either.

If they complain, hit them.

 

[Divinokage]

Camping is part of the game. It's just not good for the spectators. Or fun to practice.

I played Wes's Samus and every match took minimum 5 mins, it has been a long time since I played a campy Samus that way or hell 5 min matches but I just played it and it was fine. lol.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Wait, isn't this the Falco thread? You guys have the best anti-camping tool ever. It pokes them from across the screen and interrupts them if they try to camp you. How do you guys get affected by someone trying to outcamp you? Hell, forget "outcamping"... if they just refuse to engage you, you can get free hits and/or positional advantage and then go to work from there. I guess platform camping can be annoying but only like two characters can do that against you at all and he has plenty of counters for it...

 

[Bonsai]

Yeah.

So bonsai, if you don't like the way someone is playing, then play in a way that the other person doesn't like either.

If they complain, hit them.

Violence is mad good in smash. I've never lost a game where I used that tactic. Bonsai good player fund? Imma come to the next big international and beat everybody (up).

 

[Stevo]

what KK said.

Falco could almost out camp jiggs if it wasn't so rewarding once jiggs gets even 1 hit.

 

[Bonsai]

Wait, isn't this the Falco thread? You guys have the best anti-camping tool ever. It pokes them from across the screen and interrupts them if they try to camp you. How do you guys get affected by someone trying to outcamp you? Hell, forget "outcamping"... if they just refuse to engage you, you can get free hits and/or positional advantage and then go to work from there. I guess platform camping can be annoying but only like two characters can do that against you at all and he has plenty of counters for it...

Yeah I can camp back but that sucks and it's sucky melee and it makes me wanna poop my pants. that's my point all this time.

 

[KirbyKaze]

You camp until you're positioned to have a good approach and then attack them.

 

[Bonsai]

You camp until you're positioned to have a good approach and then attack them.

I am not complaining about the falco puff matchup yo! it's not that terrible.
my point was mainly about apex's gfs.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Oh, yeah. Low tiers and Puff are boring as hell when they fight each other. They can't do anything to each other lolz.

 

[SamusPoop]

 

[crush]

did yall hear about how ICG's account is Supreme Dirt?

 

[FoxLisk]

3 things:
1) bonsai i would respond to your posts but it'd just be me repeating myself, im just glad everyone else knows i'm right
2) I ****ing loved GFs. I thought it was an absolute blast to watch
3) Whoever was posting about people not 4-pooling in brood war finals is actually just totally wrong and doesn't follow the scene closely enough. the reason it's rare is because it's eminently counterable, not because it's 'gay.' your opponent is free to pick a build that will beat a 4-pool 100% of the time and lead to a playable game against a wide variety of other openings as well.
Smash-starcraft (like smash-chess, although those are rarer) comparisons almost always fall apart miserably under even the slightest of scrutiny, and I wish people would leave them alone :\

edit: since point 3 wasnt really very clear, let me be more specific. You actually do see things like 4-pools and BBS and proxy gates at the finals of major tournaments, and the reason they are rare is explained above. They still show up sometimes though.

 

[Beat!]

Bonsai is wrong.

That's all there is to it, really.

And yeah, epic lol at the idea that professional Starcraft players wouldn't cheese because it's "gay". Get a ****ing grip.

 

[Warhawk]

Camping is part of the game. It's just not good for the spectators. Or fun to practice.

I think in small doses that camping is actually fun, especially when it makes the other player rage and hate on me lol. I agree its not too fun to watch though.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Without camping the game is simply two people running at each other throwing their attacks with no sense of spacing or strategy.

 

[L__]

mango runs at people with spacing and strategy wtf

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

what a camper

 

[Merkuri]

So PP isn't going to post his thoughts on Apex? :/

 

[Dr Peepee]

Um guys, there's no reason to freak out about Fox vs Falco based on one set. I would love for Javi to come back to the USA eventually and allow me to prove that to anyone concerned, but it's not a big deal either way. Falco is perfectly capable of handling Fox, but I didn't demonstrate this in my set with him. Sometimes that happens I guess.

@Xianglongfa: Yeah Armada striking to YS is pretty smart because of where he can float and get me offstage quickly and kill me. Also the platforms aren't that far off the ground so he can reach anyone trying to escape relatively easily usually. He actually would have banned BF against me if we played(I accidentally asked him what he banned rofl). I've decided that Falco likes that high top platform enough to benefit him well vs Peach and the edges suck really badly for her to recover onto so that helps Falco out A LOT when it comes to killing her.



and I guess I can post some apex thoughts but I don't want to get trolled or get called a johnner so I'm not particularly interested in doing it.


edit: yeah I am salty but not like raging like I was after rom4 or whatever. those rumors are the worst out of all of these. I felt I underperformed so this was easier to get over.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Well, glad to hear that you're doing alright, anyways. Shine is really broken, huh?

I still think Falco wins that, btw.

 

[Divinokage]

Getting salty means the ego took a huge shot to the face. Gotta let go, yo.

 

[Dr Peepee]

It'd be stupid if I wasn't salty honestly. If I just didn't care that I lost then I wouldn't be motivated to improve and beat that guy/prove myself in the future.

Edit: that set with Javi didn't really convince me one way or the other on Fox vs Falco. I still don't know what to call it overall.

 

[FoxLisk]

PP it looked to me a lot like you let your emotions mess with your gameplan. like when you got that **** combo on Armada's first stock and literally punched the air and then seemed to play worse the next few stocks... am i totally misreading it or do you think your approach to playing with your emotions (which you've said you're working on) is not fully worked out yet?

 

[stopNstart]

he could be better.

 

[Dr Peepee]

PP it looked to me a lot like you let your emotions mess with your gameplan. like when you got that **** combo on Armada's first stock and literally punched the air and then seemed to play worse the next few stocks... am i totally misreading it or do you think your approach to playing with your emotions (which you've said you're working on) is not fully worked out yet?

I was sick and just wanted the crowd to enjoy me doing well while I could.

I didn't think I'd win Apex at all from the beginning of last week when I got sick and was just hoping I could eek out a 3-2 loss. oh well.

I suppose emotion had something to do with it as well, but it was more that I just couldn't focus....the two could be related I suppose but this all gets into what I would say if I did my Apex writeup that would invariably be filled with johns.

I'm gonna put this out there and if it gets trolled then I don't respond to any more of these.

 

[Divinokage]

It'd be stupid if I wasn't salty honestly. If I just didn't care that I lost then I wouldn't be motivated to improve and beat that guy/prove myself in the future.

Edit: that set with Javi didn't really convince me one way or the other on Fox vs Falco. I still don't know what to call it overall.

You can care a lot, but getting over-confident in your ability will get in your way.. it went in my way plenty of times and at this tournament. I know it sucks losing but there's plenty of ways to take a loss, it's not so much as proving yourself than working at yourself to have the best and nice mindset possible. I mean getting cocky while only looking forward, you might miss what's coming at you from the back if you know what I mean? It happened to me, and ya.. That's how it is.

 

[Dr Peepee]

You can care a lot, but getting over-confident in your ability will get in your way.. it went in my way plenty of times and at this tournament. I know it sucks losing but there's plenty of ways to take a loss, it's not so much as proving yourself than working at yourself to have the best and nice mindset possible. I mean getting cocky while only looking forward, you might miss what's coming at you from the back if you know what I mean?

I was not over-confident this tournament. I went in expecting to get 3rd or somewhere around there. I just told most everyone I was trying to win. I was overconfident at rom4.

I just want to improve and put this horrible tournament behind me(yes I will learn from it but all of the negative feelings and stuff I could do without).

 

[Levingy]

Too bad if you were sick again pp =/. I also would want to hear your full thoughts of Apex. And hey, you're moderator, so just moderate the trolls or something if they come at you =].