PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[Mogwai]

Ok, so this is going to sound very stupid. I expect it to. But no one has explained it to me, and I do fine without it. But Raynex told me once that there was no such thing as a stupid question. So, I'll just ask: Why are ledge hop double lasers supposed to be good? They seem very punishable, and place Falco in the worst of positions. I've been able to just stand at the ledge and react to them, often enough. It could be possible that I've just never seen (as in played against or watched on YT) a Falco use them well, but I find them to be the MOST dangerous risk you could possibly take from the ledge. One that is too risky to be worth using, in my opinion.

But please, by all means, prove me wrong. I want to be educated on this.

people do them wrong a lot. a common misunderstanding is that ledge invulnerability is granted when you drop from the ledge, rather than when you grab the ledge, so the biggest thing that makes LHDL super risky is delaying on the ledge for any period of time. you need to immediately drop and LHDL once you grab the ledge to use the invincibility well.

that being said, I don't think anyone really thinks they're super duper good anymore. if you're predictable about them, pretty much any character can death punish you with the right full hop aerial.

 

[Niko45]

@shrouded

lol a lot of characters have like no answers for it besides PS of course

what matchup are you talking about

 

[ShroudedOne]

Peach, mainly.

 

[Niko45]

I **** peach with it constantly. How are you punishing it? Take laser -> nair?

 

[ShroudedOne]

Either take laser > nair, or just shield laser > nair. Sometimes, I can dask attack under the first laser, or CC > downsmash.

 

[Niko45]

dash attack under laser is just falco doing it wrong. gotta learn to do them low and invincibly (immediately)

shield to nair and cc downsmash should just be getting shined

if you have time to float high and force them to do higher double lasers and you nair them between lasers that's the only time I really think it's truly punishable

 

[Bones0]

People suck at adjusting the heights and don't LHDL into shine enough. Watch Mango, scrubs.

 

[ShroudedOne]

I was thinking of LHDL > shine, and only Mango really came to mind. So, people just do it badly? I can contend with that. Of course, I don't punish it all the time. It just seems REALLY unsafe to even consider. I actually ftilted it as Marth once (but I know that one obviously doesn't work).

 

[unknown522]

lol armada has brainwashed u into thinking peach puff is the worst matchup of the high tiers ROFL.... what a scrub

It's unwinnable at high level

@shrouded

lol a lot of characters have like no answers for it besides PS of course

what matchup are you talking about

I've never heard something more wrong this week. It's an amazing tool but everyone has answers to it

 

[Bones0]

I'm pretty sure you can't do anything about Marth ftilting you (before the first laser hits). But you just shouldn't be LHDLing when Marth is waiting by the ledge anyway.

High level = Hbox, so basically that only means no one's able to beat Hbox with Peach. x_x

 

[unknown522]

You're invincible as the first laser comes out if you do it properly

The second laser is the problem

 

[Bones0]

Damn, really? Do you have specifics on it? I mainly get punished when LHDLing by counter so even if I do it perfectly the invincibility won't last long enough to help.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Oh, so ftilt is actually a legitimate option for Marth? It comes out that quickly? Or is it that Marth can do it while staying safe, due to it's range?

I'm still not 100% convinvced that the MU is unwinnable at high/top level, but it seems that way, for now. DoH says it's not that bad, though, so who knows.

EDIT: Counter makes sense as a really good option against it, too.

 

[Niko45]

"answers" involving hard reads and compromising yourself if they choose any other recovery option are not what I meant by answers

 

[ShroudedOne]

But what I was getting at in my initial post was that I could react to the LHDL, and then punish. So, if I can react, they're also doing it wrong? (in addition to them not doing the correct height)

 

[ArcNatural]

Even doing lhdl your at risk for people who do the crouching 45 degree angle jabs. You need to be on point getting that second laser low to the ground to avoid getting hit with the CC jabs.

 

[Warhawk]

It's unwinnable at high level

Why is it unwinnable? I thought when Armada actually played Peach vs Puff he nearly beat Hungrybox like 2 times and I don't think they've ever played more than like 4 or 5 games. When I think unwinnable I think like Pika vs Sheik or worse. Is it really that bad?

 

[Bones0]

Axe beat M2K at Zenith. You guys need to reevaluate your standards for "unwinnable" matchups. There are none.

 

[Warhawk]

Well yea but I meant like as soon as the matchup hits 70-30 most of the community labels it unwinnable and 70-30 is about what Sheik vs Pika is so I was wondering if that's the same level of difficulty that he was labeling Puff vs Peach at.

 

[ShroudedOne]

There are unwinnables, Bones. Talk to any Bowser main about Sheik or Peach. Or any bottom tier main about Fox, really (or Sheik, lol).

 

[JPOBS]

The power of LHDL lies in the fact that your opponent is forced to take precautions against them, and in doing so it usually leaves you free to do just about any other ledge option you choose.

If they don't explicitly take measures to handle the lhdl, then surprise surprise, they get shot up on the blocks and death combo'd. So if they want to prevent that from happening, then they have to do something about it and usually that means you can do other simple things and completely get away with them.

As long as you can effectively tell/react/read mixups for when your opponent is prepared/not prepared for the lhdl , then you can get back on for free.

 

[V3ctorMan]

There are unwinnables, Bones. Talk to any Bowser main about Sheik or Peach. Or any bottom tier main about Fox, really (or Sheik, lol).

I'm actually not too bad at the Yoshi vs Fox/Falco MU, I've gotten a "decent" amount of wins vs top players,

Spoiler

unless Yoshi isn't considered bottom tier, (I hope he's not) =3

But I understand what you're tryna say.

 

[Beat!]

There are a few "unwinnable" (I don't like the word but w/e) matchups, or near unwinnable, but I agree with Bones in that we really need to raise the bar when it comes to what matchups actually deserve that label. Pika vs Sheik is evidently not bad enough (I'm not denying that it's a pretty ****ty MU for Pika, so don't get mad at me, Pika players).

LHDL is good, but not amazing. That's more than you can say about most characters' ledge options.

 

[choknater]

peach vs ice climbers is really terrible

 

[Beat!]

Not according to Wobbles.

 

[Warhawk]

I don't really view Pika vs Sheik as unwinnable, I just needed a reference point for what Unknown was considering as unwinnable matchups.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Axe has a fighting chance against every Sheik in the world; in fact hes probably favored most of the time
Armada beats every Fox in the world soundly
Hax is known as a Sheik slayer
Wobbles prides himself in his Peach matchup
Linguini has been ****** Falcos since the dawn of time

I think for most players, the ratios don't particularly work out as cleanly as they do in theory. For example, I do much better against Sheik than I do Falco, despite playing Marth.

Melee is really deep and most imbalances that the smash community places on things have been either overturned or changed by metagame shifts. In the end there is so much to every matchup that its really common for one player to outclass everyone else in knowledge and execution. It doesn't really matter where the theory lies if most people can't apply or even comprehend the full bredth of the theory.

I think in simpler games, matchups have more weight...when it is easy to comprehend and abuse your advantage, then it becomes impossible to lose. Except for the truly crippled low tier characters, there is a lot to learn and implement in every matchup so results aren't as predictable as the theory would make you think.

Plus...spacing exists. Baiting exists. Mindgames exist. Every character has a grab. Most have death combos off that grab. There are a lot of non-character-specific defensive and offensive options that counter top tier strategies. Matches aren't just option-coverage tests...there is more going on.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

I'm going to be playing a friend of mine tomorrow, and I feel liked using Falco against him, because dittos are fun. What advice would you guys give to a Ganon main/Kirby secondary who's never played Falco before?

Also, keep in mind that I can beat this guy with Kirby, so I don't need to be that good.

 

[Bones0]

Well yea but I meant like as soon as the matchup hits 70-30 most of the community labels it unwinnable and 70-30 is about what Sheik vs Pika is so I was wondering if that's the same level of difficulty that he was labeling Puff vs Peach at.

Then most of the community is dumb. By definition, an unwinnable matchup is 100-0. Melee has no matchups like this because every character has the potential to space, mindgame, and punish. As long as you have those three abilities winning will always be possible. Some characters have much weaker spacing tools, mindgames (options), and punishes than others, but they all have them.

 

[unknown522]

"answers" involving hard reads and compromising yourself if they choose any other recovery option are not what I meant by answers

*shakes head*

@ bones there are unwinnable matchups in this game. Take pichu vs ICs for example

 

[Strong Badam]

yo
pichu can
uh
nair

 

[danieljosebatista]

Honestly, as far as the Puff Peach match up goes, I just don't see it being that bad that we should be calling it unwinnable. I mean sure Armada has been going YL to counter Hbox but that doesn't mean that Peach can't win. Then again, wtf do i know

 

[Beat!]

*shakes head*

@ bones there are unwinnable matchups in this game. Take pichu vs ICs for example

Lil' Andy would like to have a word with you.

 

[Rubyiris]

sorry, doublepost.

 

[Rubyiris]

Thanks again for the advice Bones, and EWC. Next tournament is rapidly approaching, and I really could use some additional advice vs IC and Samus.


Hey guys; some critique would be really awesome. Tourney this saturday. I've done quite a bit of my own studying, but I'd love to get some outside opinions on what I'm doing well, and what need work.

vs Coreygames (Samus)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAtj9sVJvlE&feature=related

vs Wobbles (Ice Climbers)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9p4gSOE_AOg&feature=related

Wobbles bringing his C-Level game to my B and A level game and consistently beating me. This needs to change.

Brought my A-Game for Coreygames because she asked me to. Match is pretty legit.

yo
pichu can
uh
nair

and delayed uair > nair.

 

[Fernandez]

You need to work on your spacing and deciscion making imo, vs Wobbles I saw alot of badly spaced aerials that you just seemed to throw out without much thought behind it, wich you got punished alot for.

0:30 for example you shouldnt have done any aerial at all and just double jump to the top platform
also 1:13 was such an obvious dair, something I use sometimes in a siuation like that(if I know my opponent is going to shield) is just run of the platform and land infront of them without doing any aerial and then when you land u shine -> something(fade away aerial, or shinegrab fe)

1:20 and 1:25 are also 2 dairs that werent spaced at all, you should really watch out more when you do something like that, atleast do a retreating dair.

also the random fsmashes at the end of game 1? why?

 

[Pachinkosam]

every interesting

 

[Cactuar]

every interesting ever

 

[unknown522]

Lil' Andy would like to have a word with you.

I'd like to have a word with him

Also coreygames is a girl?!?!?

 

[Blunted_object10]

I'd like to have a word with him

And I would like to have a word with you