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PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
Hi guys.

I'm a german Falco player since 07 and I wanted to ask you guys for some help.
I've bin working my *** off for the last couple of months working on my execution, my decision making and my mindset as hard as I could.

I think my mindset and execution are fine by now but I lack in decistion making.
This is a video of me playing against Usleon (a very good german sheik player) this Saturday in Winners Finals of a Tournament me and pheX hosted in Hamburg.


I want to ask you for advice.
I myself have worked out some outlines so far as well which are:
improve my ftilt /combo DI vs sheik in general
Use more fake approaches / Dash Dances to bait out nair OOS approach covers fx
Anti tech chasing

Especially the anti tech chasing is what concerns me the most.
During the set you might notice that i tried to adapt to usleon mainly going for my reaction after the tech/getup rather for the getup directly.

So i tried a mixup between dash away/ftilt/fsmash/ftilt and spotdodge/rolls but still I got techchased a LOT.

Also my recovery vs Needles sucks. Any advice?
[collapse=Game 1 - Dream Land]
0:05 - After you miss the dair, you dash away to get out of range of his grab/DA, but I think you could have reacted better and punished his whiff. There wasn't a compelling reason to laser because at 0%, getting grabbed is the only real ground threat from Sheik. I really like to focus on CCing her DA and tilts, so when I know she is out of grab range, I never feel the need to laser much, especially a RSHL to zone her out. Ideally, I think you could have WDed back towards her out of your dash and started a huge shine combo.

0:10 - Idk the intricacies of PAL dthrow, but you DIed the first 4 almost exactly the same. If you mix up your DI at least slightly, the Sheik player has to react with the proper WD distance to setup the rest of the tech chase. Also, I'd recommend teching in place and getting up in place somewhere in the first couple of tech chases vs. someone. A lot of players can't react to those options, so it's good to find out early in the set if you can get away with in-place options. I played a Sheik main a while back who couldn't react to TIP when I DIed behind him. I just DIed behind him over and over and took hardly any damage from every grab.

1:23 - Up-Bing there really doesn't do anything for you. If you were worried about her reacting to your Phantasm, up-Bing that close to her is only making it easier for her to react to. Vs. Sheik, I generally try to stick to ledgecancels, high shortens to fake ledgecancels, and low shortens to sweetspot. You can also do the occasional super high recovery top the top plat if possible and if they won't be able to get to you.
[/collapse]
[collapse=Game 2 - Yoshi's Story]
2:55 - A strong bair would have done a ton more for you than the weak one, and Sheik falls slow enough that you can react to that kind of stuff. Even dairing her onto the plat would have been fine, but the weak one actually gave her a chance to retaliate (luckily he airdodged instead). If you are unsure about rising up with a bair like that, you can always SH to bait an airdodge or DJ and then DJ bair when you think it's okay to go up at her.

2:58 - Idk if you messed up or were hoping to CC a GUA, but you should have just utilted him off the ground from the missed tech.

3:00 - The utilt after dairing her shield was just not as good as shining. From shine you can safely link into fadeaway aerials, grab, or double shine. If utilt hits, you don't get as good of a punish as shine, and if it doesn't, there's a significant chance you'll get counterattacked.

3:02 - I don't like that jab. You could get CCed, you could trade, or he could just avoid it all together and get a grab. Even with the hit, you can't link it to anything, and you actually end up giving up space to laser because the jab virtually gives her an opening after the little bit of stun. When I get Sheik within SHFFL range, especially on YS where she really has nowhere to go, SHFFLing is amazing. As you jump towards her, you can react to your spacing and either late aerial/FF into shine pressure or cross her up and shine, utilt, immediate AC bair, another crossup, shield, turnaround grab, etc.

3:03 - After jabbing her, you RSHL to reset. You hit her with the laser, but do a useless DD into another SHL. Your DD didn't adjust your spacing at all, and there's no way Sheik could have reached you so the dash back really served no purpose other than to give him time to react to your second SHL. If you're going to laser again there, then you should at least just be staying in place so you don't give up ground.

3:18 - He messes up and fsmashes on the top plat while you drop through. With her on the top plat like that, your biggest concern should be holding center stage. Techrolling left was unfortunate, but understandable since you probably didn't expect him to mess up with that fsmash. As soon as you realize that though, you have to move towards the stage. Instead, you do a super useless dash away towards the ledge and exacerbate the problem by standing there and lasering (maybe you assumed he would drop off the plat?). Those two actions leave you trapped at the ledge in shield when you should have been under her playing the bair/utilt game from underneath.

3:30 - You could have DIed that dsmash a lot better.

3:35 - Probably could have ledgecancelled a Phantasm right through him. Sort of like the previous bad up-B where all you do is give him more time to react. When you Phantasm he can only really cover one height, and you can pretty much react to which one he is covering. When you up-B, he is able to cover a Phantasm option as well as react to your up-B.

4:05 - Firestall to refresh your invincibility.

4:15 - In this edgeguard, you can either play it safe by bairing with invincibility and landing on stage or Firestall and try and force him on stage. I prefer the latter, but if you are going to do the former, you should at least actually aim the bair because I'm pretty sure you could have hit him before his up-B invincibility kicked in.

4:20 - Not sure what you were doing with that DJ bair after the SH. It looked like you tried to SH onto the ledge way too late, but as soon as Sheik is that close to the ledge there's no real reason to try to fight her. She has too much invincibility both on her up-B as well as her ledgedash.

4:25 - I don't think you have uthrown all set. At such a good KO %, there's no real reason to be bthrowing. Even if you don't combo off of uthrow because of their DI, it's virtually a 50-50 KO setup because you can just jump up at her with a bair and she has to guess when you will bair and avoid it with her DJ. Really though, you should just be comboing it into uair/bair for the kill at such an easy combo %.

4:48 - Again, you DI the dthrow the same way 3 times in a row, and finally get out when you mix it up and tech in place instead of techrolling (which is by far the easiest getup option to react to). You also could have just slid off onto the ledge on the third dthrow.

5:10 - Instead of that nair, you could have daired her and forced her into a tech chase on the right plat.

5:12 - Really have to anticipate that missed tech/TIP and react with dsmash. You can always react to the tech rolls with fsmash after you mentally check off that he didn't do the first two options.

5:20 - Not sure why you would let him get away with switching to Zelda. I understand it's a fluke mistake, but fluke mistakes happen in every set, and people win games, sets, and tournaments off of mistakes much smaller than an accidental transform. If you were playing Ice in GFs for a million dollars and he accidentally transforms, won't you wish you had taken that opportunity to practice punishing Sheiks that accidentally transform? It just seems arbitrary to forgive that tech error when some players' strategies revolve almost entirely around punishing the mistakes of their opponents, especially spacie mains.

6:25 - You really can't afford to miss those tech chases.
[/collapse]
[collapse=Game 3 - Final Destination]
8:15 - That fsmash is super risky and doesn't help at all since he's at 0%.

8:20 - No DI.

This game was just a lot of sloppy play in general, particularly the ledge stuff in the beginning, so I probably don't need to go too in depth...
[/collapse]
[collapse=Game 4 - Pokemon Stadium]
9:05 - You can't fade in on shields like that, especially Sheik's super unpokeable shield. Considering she was only at 3%, I'd just shinegrab, uthrow her, and try to punish her landing. The pressure isn't worth it unless you can double shine (and even then, you still have to grab/fadeaway after the last shine).

10:05 - It looks like you FH baired to try and catch her OoS option. You should probably just SH bair to catch that option, that way if she jumps a little earlier like she actually did, you can always follow her in the air and punish that. If she had shielded that FH bair, it opens you up to her WD OoS off the plat into the center of the stage, and suddenly you are stuck in a 50-50 where you have to land predictably or DJ and risk getting smacked off stage.

10:09 - As soon as you see her jump that high, just dip back with a WD OoS.

11:00 - Did another fade in aerial on shield. It looked like you were going for the crossup, but it's just too risky. Even if you were deeper on her shield, she might shield DI back trying to roll. You also have to realize that if the crossup doesn't bait a bad OoS option that you can immediately punish, you are giving up center stage and pin yourself at the ledge. A lot of players will be able to tell you are crossing them up and they will just WD OoS towards the center and work from there.

12:05 - Should've Firestalled once again. There's no need to make that read.

13:13 - NOOOOO! lol I'd go for the grab after that laser normally, and with all the pressure it's even more likely to work because people camp shield when they're scared.


- It seemed strange that you lasered so little on PS when it is much more conducive to lasering than YS (where you lasered a ton). I would mentally calibrate how much you plan on lasering before going into each game based on how much room you have and what character you're playing. That should lead to overall better laser habits (though you shouldn't have many laser habits at all; try to treat each one as any other attack that has high risk and low reward when done improperly).
[/collapse]
 

YellowBand

Smash Cadet
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Tampa, FL
Hello!!

So I know this thread and PeePee's post (the ones in the OP) are kind of old. I just finished reading the post on how to practice by yourself and I was reading the Teching and DI section. I got a little confused when he inserted Leffen's(?) quote on how to practice teching

Important things about practicing teching:
-Use taunts to make sure that you aren't crouch canceling
-You need to fly as close to the ground as possible, this means that you will almost always DI Down+Away, not Down+towards like many use for Spacie Dsmashes (it only works for it)
-To practice it, I simply taunt with the character I wanna tech with, start whatever move with my other controller and pause [before it hits], switch controllers, input tech/DI


its kind of embarrassing that no one but Ice has really started using tech's yet, it makes edgeguarding/punishing soooooooo much harder. Marth recovers onto ledge at 150% and you jump->Bair? lol free tech.
You wanna dair? I either tech or just edge cancel away the lag. Free.
Strong fsmash at 120%? No problem, tech.

Its really stupid, and its sooooo easy. Down+Away on control stick, down on cstick, R way a bit before attack hits. Done
I thought teching was pressing L/R as soon as you land to quickly get up/roll left-right but this post confuses me. Can I get a quick "layman's terms" explanation on this?
 

wezai

Smash Journeyman
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Messages
311
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Mogi-Guaçu / Brazil
Hello!!

So I know this thread and PeePee's post (the ones in the OP) are kind of old. I just finished reading the post on how to practice by yourself and I was reading the Teching and DI section. I got a little confused when he inserted Leffen's(?) quote on how to practice teching



I thought teching was pressing L/R as soon as you land to quickly get up/roll left-right but this post confuses me. Can I get a quick "layman's terms" explanation on this?
My best guess is that you DI to the ground so that your character touches the floor after your opponent uses a smash attack, allowing you to proceed with tech. If you don't DI properly, you will fly to the air, making it impossible to tech (since you won't be touching the ground).

So I think he is trying to explain how to DI in such a way that your character will still be touching the floor; only then you will be able to tech properly (as you said, pressing L/R as soon as you land to quickly get up/roll left-right) after receiving a smash attack. However, I think you have to press R a little before you get hit by the smash attack, since there's a lag time before you can input any command after you get hit. Anyone correct me if I am wrong, please.

And just to add, you can also tech on walls. This makes recovering a bit easier if you know when and how to use it.
 
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YellowBand

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My best guess is that you DI to the ground so that your character touches the floor after your opponent uses a smash attack, allowing you to proceed with tech. If you don't DI properly, you will fly to the air, making it impossible to tech (since you won't be touching the ground).

So I think he is trying to explain how to DI in such a way that your character will still be touching the floor; only then you will be able to tech properly (as you said, pressing L/R as soon as you land to quickly get up/roll left-right) after receiving a smash attack. However, I think you have to press R a little before you get hit by the smash attack, since there's a lag time before you can input any command after you get hit. Anyone correct me if I am wrong, please.

And just to add, you can also tech on walls. This makes recovering a bit easier if you know when and how to use it.

Ok I get it! But now I'm just confused about the taunt thing. What did he mean by taunting and then pausing and then teching?
 

bolt.

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Ok I get it! But now I'm just confused about the taunt thing. What did he mean by taunting and then pausing and then teching?
Taunting makes it so you're not prematurely inserting the command and crouch canceling. That way you practice getting the tech from the standing animation, which is the point of the drill.
 

YellowBand

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Taunting makes it so you're not prematurely inserting the command and crouch canceling. That way you practice getting the tech from the standing animation, which is the point of the drill.
Oooooooh so what Leffen was saying was to taunt first so that you have no way of crouch canceling the attack which would otherwise just leave you unphased(semi) by the smash attack. I get it, I get it (Drake voice)
 

Bones0

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Edit: ^ Oh thanks. Question: Does breaking one's own shield and getting stunned by that also work the same way?
Yes. Doing anything that prevents your character from actually crouching will work. Taunting is just the easiest because it lasts the longest. Puff players usually miss a rest when they are practicing ground techs, for example.
 

wezai

Smash Journeyman
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Yes. Doing anything that prevents your character from actually crouching will work. Taunting is just the easiest because it lasts the longest. Puff players usually miss a rest when they are practicing ground techs, for example.
Thanks a lot for clarifying that.
 

SSS

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What do you with Flaco when you get a grab? Versus various characters and various percents.

What are your go-to kill moves?

Is Dsmash or Fsmash better and when do you use which?

Ftilt uses?

Best OOS options?
 

Fox128

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@ SSS SSS :
Srsly +1 to Bones0

Sorry but your question is very general and difficult to answer since their are so many possibilities.

@grabs

What I can tell you:
1. It depends on many factors like their %, the character and if they can DI uthrow properly/tech dthrow (if they can't LOL you obv go for that, but it's the year 20xx so they probably can, since they can since like 2k2)/react to "the ninja" (backthrow "semichaingrab" vs FFs), get screw up/are predictable after fthrow at low%
2. Most of the time the answer is uthrow
 

YellowBand

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Fsmash is a very good move but it's risky, a missed smash or a fsmash on low % could result in you getting abused. If you want to see good uses of it, watch Shiz vids. Imo he seems to throw them out more than any other falco I've watched. Throw them out but don't make it too predictable.

Dsmash is useful for edge-guards and other things I'm sure. I would have to defer you to watch videos.

DaShizWiz, Mango, Dr. PeePee, Lambchops; these are my main Falco players that I watch and learn from, especially Shiz but I'm being biased ( I like the way he plays plus he's from SFL (represent !!! :D ) )
 

BTmoney

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When I'm done feeling sick LOL

It's also why I haven't really responded to anything in here, despite there being some good questions asked =p
Add this to your list :).

The way you played vs M2k was pretty interesting to me. It looks as if Falco definitively starts to edge out Marth as you approach the highest level (something that doesn't exist yet, hypothetically). It's almost as if his lasers just become more degenerative (I don't mean that in a negative or condescending way) the better you get with Falco. I guess a more simple way of saying what I'm trying to get across is that once you have the tech skill and the spacing down it is easier, and you get large gains relative to the difficulty, to control the match with your lasers than it is to deal with them (it's harder to maneuver around them and just because you powershield one or two lasers or manage to avoid them doesn't really mean anything. It's much easier to get a conversation off of lasers than it is to get a conversation off of a powershield or getting around lasers. Not only that but your off-laser conversations are relatively large for the disparity in difficulty. That just seems to be like a fact to me but we can debate that.)

When I watched you vs. Hbox at TO9 and vs M2k at Apex I'm thinking to myself how the hell can you possibly beat this with a level of consistency? No character has a tool that is that polarizing. I'm not trying to make it sound like Falco is OP (I do think Falco and Fox are a tad OP though, but most people do) and that takes away from what you've done. I'm saying the style you've pioneered, at this point in time, almost looks unbeatable (and I do have to give you credit for being able to pull it off). It looks like if you, as in you Dr-Peepee-Falco, play well then you win.

Do you think you're just much better than m2k (or is he just bad vs Falco) or do you think your style is just one that works very well in the current meta and limitations of characters/MUs have something to do with it? I equate this to watching Mango vs Hbox. At no tournament ever do I really think Mango is going to lose to Hbox unless he just plays worse than he usually does. Fox has a definitive edge on puff and Mango plays the MU correctly (or well). I think we usually all expect Mango to win that MU at this point.

Do you think Falco vs Marth and/or Dr. Peepee vs M2k is a comparable situation? Are either of those heading in that direction (to any degree)? Tiers don exits?

Do you think Falco is the best character in this meta?

Also do you have any thoughts on shield dropping? I think it's interesting how none of the top 5 players use it and I think it's a very strong technique. (I think it immediately makes a character like Marth better in certain MUs I think it would help him notably vs Falco but not so much vs Sheik for example)

edit: After re-watching I think I have to attribute your dominance (for the most part) vs M2k's Marth more to your neutral game as a whole (DD/use of jumps) and less to strictly effective use of lasers (even though that's a part of it). Either way you make Falco look too good lol so I'd like to hear your thoughts on how he works at high level and your opinion of his MUs, the strength of his neutral game, and other characters.
 
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Bones0

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When I watched you vs. Hbox at TO9 and vs M2k at Apex I'm thinking to myself how the hell can you possibly beat this with a level of consistency? No character has a tool that is that polarizing. I'm not trying to make it sound like Falco is OP (I do think Falco and Fox are a tad OP though, but most people do) and that takes away from what you've done.
The same sentiment could just as easily be expressed about this set:

 

SpiderMad

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Is the way Dr.PP wavedashes with Falco so unique because he is dashing for 1 or 2 frames then WD'ing like Kadano talks about?

I still don't understand why the pros like Mango and Dr.PP chose to use A more than C-stick generally for most of their aerials. Which Jump button does Dr.PP use? Are they both right handed?

When you DDWD like a crazy pro for hours doesn't it get to your finger/tendons? Do pros stick to GCCs that have super easy to press shoulder buttons? Does Dr.PP prefer White controllers over others?
 

wezai

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^ On that subject, I would like to add to your question too if you don't mind:

As a Falco player, does it matter if you use C-Stick for aerials instead of A? I've always used A as it feels a lot more natural to use and now I would like to know if there's a difference. I know that throwing turnips as Peach with C-Stick is pretty much essential and can up your game quite a lot if well practiced, as an example. So, is it the same for Falco? I can't see myself using bairs and dairs with the C-Stick to be honest.
 

Bones0

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Is the way Dr.PP wavedashes with Falco so unique because he is dashing for 1 or 2 frames then WD'ing like Kadano talks about?

I still don't understand why the pros like Mango and Dr.PP chose to use A more than C-stick generally for most of their aerials. Which Jump button does Dr.PP use? Are they both right handed?

When you DDWD like a crazy pro for hours doesn't it get to your finger/tendons? Do pros stick to GCCs that have super easy to press shoulder buttons? Does Dr.PP prefer White controllers over others?
The way PP inputs wavedashes is not unique. Its his strategy with them that makes them so effective. Every player should be comfortable using WDs with or without dashes before and/or after. Protip: dashing against your WD momentum is ill-advised. If you want to WD left and dash right, add a quick dash left in between to essentially reset your momentum. Practice: WD left, dash left, dash right, WD right, dash right, dash left, repeat

It's just preference (PP uses X, but Y is pretty much objectively better). Personally, I use a lot of A because most situations require tight timings and I simply cannot press the C-stick fast enough. Javi uses the keyboard method and Lovage jumps with the control stick, so your tech skill will not be somehow worse just because you are C-sticking instead of using A. If your execution isn't suffering and isn't going to suffer in the future as your execution gets closer and closer to frame perfect, then you're fine.

My hands never hurt after Melee sessions, and they've only gotten tired after several consecutive days of Melee (keeping in mind I rely on a lot of technical stuff in my play). My R button is trigger tricked, but I only use it for a few things. Almost everything I do is with my L button which is totally normal. All of the different controller types have the same amount of spring resistance out of the box, fyi.

^ On that subject, I would like to add to your question too if you don't mind:

As a Falco player, does it matter if you use C-Stick for aerials instead of A? I've always used A as it feels a lot more natural to use and now I would like to know if there's a difference. I know that throwing turnips as Peach with C-Stick is pretty much essential and can up your game quite a lot if well practiced, as an example. So, is it the same for Falco? I can't see myself using bairs and dairs with the C-Stick to be honest.
You HAVE to use the C-stick for some situations. For instance, if you are on YS and want to ledgedrop DJ bair, using the control stick will often lead to accidental wall jumps. The most common situation is by far simply doing non-dair aerials right when you FF. You have to be comfortable bairing with the C-stick when you are inputting the FF at the same exact time, and exact timing is huge when you're talking about stuff like FFing during shield pressure.
 

SpiderMad

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The way PP inputs wavedashes is not unique. Its his strategy with them that makes them so effective.

Every player should be comfortable using WDs with or without dashes before and/or after. Protip: dashing against your WD momentum is ill-advised. If you want to WD left and dash right, add a quick dash left in between to essentially reset your momentum.

but Y is pretty much objectively better). P

My hands never hurt after Melee sessions, and they've only gotten tired after several consecutive days of Melee (keeping in mind I rely on a lot of technical stuff in my play). My R button is trigger tricked, but I only use it for a few things. Almost everything I do is with my L button which is totally normal. All of the different controller types have the same amount of spring resistance out of the box, fyi.
His motion though of doing them always seemed to look more stylish/fast, when he'd do some between the opponent's stocks.

Why is WD against ur momentum il-advised?

Why is Y objectively better? Y is easier to SHDL and B to Y Multi-shine, but otherwise I feel like X is closer to the C-stick and has a better groove motion into pressing A from it (right to left, rather than up to down using Y which requires more than just the thumb to move by itself)

Which trigger tricks specifically, powershielding and what else? I use L for everything too, I feel full pressing R hinders your hand movement for pressing other buttons/C-stick
 

wezai

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You HAVE to use the C-stick for some situations. For instance, if you are on YS and want to ledgedrop DJ bair, using the control stick will often lead to accidental wall jumps. The most common situation is by far simply doing non-dair aerials right when you FF. You have to be comfortable bairing with the C-stick when you are inputting the FF at the same exact time, and exact timing is huge when you're talking about stuff like FFing during shield pressure.
That enlightened me a bit, so thanks for that. :)
 

Bones0

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His motion though of doing them always seemed to look more stylish/fast, when he'd do some between the opponent's stocks.

Why is WD against ur momentum il-advised?

Why is Y objectively better? Y is easier to SHDL and B to Y Multi-shine, but otherwise I feel like X is closer to the C-stick and has a better groove motion into pressing A from it (right to left, rather than up to down using Y which requires more than just the thumb to move by itself)

Which trigger tricks specifically, powershielding and what else? I use L for everything too, I feel full pressing R hinders your hand movement for pressing other buttons/C-stick
Videos can be deceiving because YouTube can't play more than 30 fps.

WD against your momentum isn't ill-advised. DASHING against your WD MOMENTUM is usually not going to help you because your dash doesn't cancel your momentum. When you DD, there is very very little momentum from your first dash affecting the second dash in the opposite direction. When you WD left and then dash right, Falco basically looks like he's on a treadmill. This is a really good thing to use if you want to stall a WD towards your opponent, but usually newer players try to WD back and dash forward and misspace themselves because the dash or SHFFL from the dash doesn't go as far as they'd expect.

Moving between B and Y is just really important. I guess I shouldn't say it's objective, but the vast majority of people that use X for Fox/Falco seem to regret it at least somewhat down the line.

The trigger trick is when you remove the spring and leave the trigger already pressed up against the button so it becomes just a single click. It helps with powershielding because you won't accidentally light shield (you can only PS with a full hard shield press). Aside from that, I use it for Shai drops (makes L-cancelling easier) and shield stops (muscle memory carried over from PSing plus it makes WDing OoS a little easier).
 

SpiderMad

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What Falcos do you know regretting using X, your saying your spring removed helped you L-cancel aerials after Shield drops?
 

Bones0

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What Falcos do you know regretting using X, your saying your spring removed helped you L-cancel aerials after Shield drops?
I don't remember any by name, but I definitely remember people posting about it being too difficult to go from B to X, especially without hitting A.

If I shai drop with L, I have to unpress it and repress the same trigger really quickly. I can do it most of the time, but if it's something like a low FoD plat where I whiff the opponent, it's a lot harder to get the repress in time. It's just cleaner to shai drop with R so I can press L as I release R.
 

SpiderMad

Smash Master
Joined
May 6, 2012
Messages
4,968
Using the stick to jump also works like a charm as well.
I like to incorporate tap jump as least as possible for max movement/pre-DI control and control stick health maybe too

When should I dash dance with Falco? I remember reading PeePee saying you had incorporate lasers along with your dash dance to get anything out of it or something, but I don't see the properties I'm trying to accomplish with it when the distance you cover is so small: along with in comparison to other character's. When should I DD vs DDWD with Falco, I usually see DDWD as more optimal since I seem to cover more distance, but reserve DD for really quick situations after I shoot a laser to react better?

Also I came up with the crazy idea of faking like you missed out on jumping out of shine during pressure. They think you're going to enter that lag animation of the shine ending after you didn't jump out, but instead you delayed/extended it by holding B and then when you think they're going to re-act and grab: you instead JC Grab them out of the shine. I might be able to try and pull this off on video on Sunday

Is Falco's spot dodge good enough to ever suggest incorporating it into one's game for situations?
 
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rpotts

Smash Lord
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Apr 6, 2009
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Lawrence, KS
I like to incorporate tap jump as least as possible for max movement/pre-DI control and control stick health maybe too
I pretty much only use the stick for jumping out of shines in air, like for a quick shine bair or shine OoS -> double jump dair or something.
When should I dash dance with Falco? I remember reading PeePee saying you had incorporate lasers along with your dash dance to get anything out of it or something, but I don't see the properties I'm trying to accomplish with it when the distance you cover is so small: along with in comparison to other character's. When should I DD vs DDWD with Falco, I usually see DDWD as more optimal since I seem to cover more distance, but reserve DD for really quick situations after I shoot a laser to react better?
DD is hard to implement well. Try to figure our exactly how far away you have to be from your opponent to DD safely. You certainly can use lasers while DDing but I wouldn't use that very often if you're close to your opponent. There is no when to DDWD vs when to DD, as in some sort of end-all-be-all answer to your question. Just mix up your movement and try to avoid being predictable. Wait for your opponent to make a mistake and exploit it all while maintaining constant, erratic movement that baits out those mistakes. It's hard to describe in text but I know that you know what I mean. Just...watch videos.
Also I came up with the crazy idea of faking like you missed out on jumping out of shine during pressure. They think you're going to enter that lag animation of the shine ending after you didn't jump out, but instead you delayed/extended it by holding B and then when you think they're going to re-act and grab: you instead JC Grab them out of the shine. I might be able to try and pull this off on video on Sunday
You could do that, but I don't see it being particulalry useful, especially since oftentimes people will be punishing that with projectiles and aerials which you can't just grab, but you could certainly use it as a mixup occasional.
Is Falco's spot dodge good enough to ever suggest incorporating it into one's game for situations?
Yes, he has a quick and useful spot dodge. It's very good on wakeup to avoid getting grabbed. Spot dodge -> shine is commonly used on wakeup but it's also commonly baited and a good Falcon player will destroy you for it. Like most defensive tactics: use sparingly against good players.
 

whitemountain123

Smash Cadet
Joined
Nov 4, 2010
Messages
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dreaming (lucid, hopefully)
Hey PP, I'm just going to add to your laundry list of stuff to respond to lol (sorry!)

I'm curious, did you get to play leffen in falco-fox at all at apex? If you did, how did it go (if not, how do you think it would go)?
Relatedly, I feel like more foxes have gained confidence in the match-up after seeing him and mango these days (remember how everybody used to say the matchup was in falco's favor :)). Foxes tend to be more mobile and are less likely to fall into the traps you helped standardize, like catching them off platforms with CCs, bair, utilt, etc. And they're also better at wdoos from lasers. Do you have any suggestions on how to deal with these more mobile foxes/how to lock 'em down?

Finally, I can't figure out a way to deal with shortened side-bs besides hard-reading them and just grabbing+holding ledge or something lol. It seems like if I expect the non-shorten, I act early and whiff, and if I expect the shorten but they don't, I act too late. I'll take ideas from anybody on this? I know lasers are an option if they're high enough, but otherwise idk.

And of course, an overdue congrats on Apex! I'm excited to see you vs. mango and armada in the summer!
 

PolishSmash

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 17, 2011
Messages
210
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New York, U.S.A.
I suck at spacing. How can I work on this during a match? Where can I find what Falco's ranges are and stuff? I was thinking of breaking it up into individual moves. So practice spacing with nairs, dairs, etc... (I know spacing is a lot more than that) Should I always DI away from them after doing a dair for example? (Retreating dair is what I mean)
 

whitemountain123

Smash Cadet
Joined
Nov 4, 2010
Messages
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dreaming (lucid, hopefully)
I suck at spacing. How can I work on this during a match? Where can I find what Falco's ranges are and stuff? I was thinking of breaking it up into individual moves. So practice spacing with nairs, dairs, etc... (I know spacing is a lot more than that) Should I always DI away from them after doing a dair for example? (Retreating dair is what I mean)
Here's a good thread that should give you an idea of falco's ranges (hint: you should check out the corresponding threads of all the other (high tier) chars). That should be a decent starting point.

As far as how to work on it? Work on it more in practice before you can expect to see results in a match. You need to be able to control your character in a low-pressure/difficulty environment before being to able to apply it mid-match. I'm assuming you're talking about spacing your own moves for the most part (as opposed to spacings/zones to be at), in which case you should practice on a cpu. Just try to hit with the tip of a move over and over with different moves. Then try hitting with the tips of your moves from different angles/approaches/speeds.

For dairs, you definitely should not always do them retreating-ly. Think about what advantages/disadvantages there are to retreating or not retreating. But it's honestly less about whether you retreat or not, but where/how fast you land (because obv. your starting position affects what results you'll get with retreating or not). What moves can they hit me with if I land at space X or Y? At which spacings can I follow-up directly from a shffled X with shine, etc.

Mostly, experiment lol (once you have the mechanics to execute as you like)
 

wezai

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 27, 2007
Messages
311
Location
Mogi-Guaçu / Brazil
Advice? I suck at edgeguarding Fox, apparently. lol

I'm not the best person to give you advice, but watching that first match it was clear that you had the right idea to finish Fox, but your timing was off (a lot off). Just need to work on the right timing for the edgeguard so you don't end up dairing or nairing the air and the rest will come naturally. You are the type of person who seem to understand your matchups, just practice the timing. :p
 
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knoxvader

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jun 13, 2013
Messages
48
Location
Minnesota
how do I shorten falco's side b? super noob question but can't find the answer around.

edit: looking for specific frames, I understand the general concept.
 
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wezai

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 27, 2007
Messages
311
Location
Mogi-Guaçu / Brazil
how do I shorten falco's side b? super noob question but can't find the answer around.

edit: looking for specific frames, I understand the general concept.
Quoting from another thread:

Side B: Phantasm (grounded)



Total: 59
Falco starts moving away: 17
Hit: 18-21
Time to press B and stop Falco: 17-20
Cancelling on frames 17-18 gives you the shortest Phantasm distance. Cancelling on frame 19 gives you the second shortest Phantasm distance. Cancelling on frame 20 gives you the third shortest Phantasm distance. Phantasm has 4 different lengths (the three shortens listed above as well as the full distance Phantasm).
Can grab edge as early as 25.

Landlag: 20
Landfallspeciallag: 3


Side B: Phantasm (airborne)


Total: 59
Falco starts moving away: 17
Hit: 18-21
Time to press B and stop Falco: 17-20
The information for shortens is the same as for the grounded Phantasm.
Can grab edge as early as 25

Landlag: 20
Landfallspeciallag: 3

Source

Hope that helps or at least put you in the right direction.
 
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