Prepare for trouble! Make it double!

[Parasol]

Prepare for trouble!
Make it double!
To protect the world from devastation!
To unite all peoples within our nation!
To denounce the evils of truth and love!
To extend our reach to the stars above!
Jessie!
James!
Team Rocket, blast off at the speed of light!
Surrender now or prepare to fight!​

Okay, so now that the hokey introduction is finished, let's get down to business: This here is a discussion topic considering the possibility and probability of Team Rocket making an appearance as a playable character in Super Smash Bros. 4. "What, you mean you want Jessie and James thrown in the fray? What could they possibly have to offer?" Well, my dear fellow, I'm glad you asked. What Team Rocket has to offer is a solution. "To which problem?" Why, to the problem of Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Mewtwo, Pokemon Trainer, Lucario, Zoroark, and Meowth all being highly supported representatives while there being no chance that all will be included. Excluding transformations, that is seven Pokemon characters which we want to see in the fight, and we can presume that only four to five slots will be available to each franchise.

Basically, what I'm suggesting is that Pokemon Trainer should be replaced by Team Rocket. (I thought I was going to make some more arguments about iconic importance and blah dee dah, but I'm getting a little lazy. I'll just cut to the chase, and perhaps I'll add more later.) Meowth could fill in for Squirtle, Mewtwo for Charizard, and as for Ivysaur, well, I suppose that can be a part of our lively discussion. But you understand the basic premise, yes? Jessie and James will replace Red in the sidelines, and we get more iconic and greatly desired Pokemon to take the place of the three starters. Should this happen, it is possible that all seven characters listed above can show as playable characters. Pikachu and Jigglypuff are, of course, a given. Then you can have Team Rocket (Pokemon Trainer), which compromises for adding Meowth and Mewtwo and some other face. So far, we only have three slots taken up. If major franchises can place five representatives, then both Lucario and Zoroark can take their own slot, and everybody wins! Yay. Now, I'll just clear some things up before I leave the thread to you savages:

Q) Do you think all of this is likely?
No. But I am hopeful, and I would think the discussion of this possibility would be fun, which is what all of this is about.

Q) This original post lacks movesets, fun images, statistical facts, rumors, counterarguments, and etcetera.
True. (And that wasn't a question.) I got a bit lazy, but as things progress--if they even do--I'll be more than glad to throw edits in here and there. For now, I just want to get the discussion underway. I mean, it took me nearly all morning just to whip up that fun Team Rocket logo at the top. (I'm horrible with GIMP, you see.) Please take it easy on me.

Q) We already have a Pokemon Trainer thread which discusses candidates for the three Pokemon. Couldn't you have just posted this there?
Nope. I like recognition. Beyond that, I earnestly believe this particular candidate deserves its own thread.

Great! Now that we have that out of the way, I'll leave you kiddies off with a couple question of my own to get the thinking underway.
1) Would you support Team Rocket over the standard Pokemon Trainer?
2) How likely do you think it is that Sakurai already considered this possibility?
3) What Pokemon do you think should cover the middle slot (or Ivysuar's position)?
4) Who would you like to see as the Team Rocket trainer: Jessie and James, generic grunts, or Giovanni?
5) Would sacrificing Mewtwo's down special (for the transformation) be a sufficient compromise to his inclusion?
6) Would Meowth and Mewtwo be switched out via Pokeballs or by their own means?

DISCUSS!!

 

[lobotheduck21]

Jessie and James originated as anime characters so they are ineligible, but there is a PT replacement thread were they talk about a TR grunt

 

[Vyzor]

Pretty good thread you have here!

Ha, Team Rocket would be a pleasant character addition :D I honestly have never liked Pokemon Trainer, I thought he was kind of lame, but I would rather him get replaced with Jessie and James. They are main characters in the anime and they have also been generic rocket grunts in Pokemon Yellow. They would make for a good comic relief character too.

1) Yes
2) He most likely has thought of it at some point but he probably doesn't consider it a possibly.
3) Wobbuffet. He has been a pokeball pokemon since Melee and is extremely popular. Not to mention Jessie has had him for a long time.
4) Giovanni wouldn't be a bad idea, but Rocket Grunts wouldn't be too bad either. I would still rather Jessie and James but it would make more sense for generic grunts.
5) Very stupid, it was a weak attack and a poor reflector.
6) I would say Pokeballs.

 

[lobotheduck21]

pretty good thread you have here!

Ha, team rocket would be a pleasant character addition :d i honestly have never liked pokemon trainer, i thought he was kind of lame, but i would rather him get replaced with jessie and james. They are main characters in the anime and they have also been generic rocket grunts in pokemon yellow. They would make for a good comic relief character too.

1) yes
2) he most likely has thought of it at some point but he probably doesn't consider it a possibly.
3) wobbuffet. He has been a pokeball pokemon since melee and is extremely popular. Not to mention jessie has had him for a long time.
4) giovanni wouldn't be a bad idea, but rocket grunts wouldn't be too bad either. I wwould still rather jessie and james.
5) very stupid, it was a weak attack and a poor reflector.
6) i would say pokeballs.

wobbuffet would be genius!!!

 

[8-peacock-8]

Well, unfortunately, Jessie and James have no chance. However, if we uses a generic Team Rocket goon, that could work or even Giovanni himself.

 

[Ghirahilda]

Whoa this is the greatest idea ever! They are really cool!

1)Yes, yes, yes, but I think that Mewtwo is a little to much for them.
2) It's really hard to say what Sakurai think about them, but I think that him even consider it, but the possibilities are really small =/
3) Wobbo wobbo! I think that Mewtwo needs to be substitued for another pokemon...
4) Jessie & James for sure!
5) I have no idea
6) I don't know, Team rocket as the habit to use more than one pokemon per battle!!!

 

[Deleted member]

1) Over the standard Trainer? No. I do not support cuts. In addition to Pokemon Trainer? Sure, why not? However, I don't support Mewtwo being tacked on to this. AT ALL.
2) Very unlikely. Jessie and James debuted in the anime, thus are inelligible. A generic Rocket Grunt or Giovanni would be more believable, but still unlikely.
3) I don't like Mewtwo being there at all, so I'd replace him too. Depends on who it is, though. If it's Jessie and James, then I say Meowth and an Arbok/Weezing tag-team (no set of 3). If a generic Rocket Grunt, then I don't know; I'll figure it out later (but no Meowth or Mewtwo). If Giovanni, then Nidoking, Nidoqueen, and Rhydon, his most iconic Pokemon.
4) I would like to have Jessie/James, but they are inelligible. I don't really care either way, as long as their Pokemon sets make sense.
5) I rather liked Disable. I wish it could be improved, but the concept is cool and unique.
6) If Meowth is with Jessie and James, then no Pokeball. He's with them when he's not in play, and when he switches, they toss him to the battleground. Any other Pokemon goes in a Pokeball (perhaps the special Rocket Balls seen in Mewtwo Returns for aesthetic effect). Mewtwo, again, should not be tacked on to this idea.

 

[Parasol]

Jessie and James originated as anime characters so they are ineligible.

Well, unfortunately, Jessie and James have no chance.

Jessie and James debuted in the anime, thus are inelligible.

We are basing this on Sakurai's statement that characters must have originated in video games to be considered for Smash Bros., right? Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't that in response to the inclusion of anime franchises, such as Dragon Ball or Naruto? Pokemon originated as a video game, but there is no doubt whatsoever that the anime is what molded the Pokemon casting in Smash Bros. (Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Mewtwo, and Lucario are only so iconic because of the anime--there is no denying that). Sakurai nearly had to adhere to the anime influence due to the fact that nearly all Pokemon characters are generic. Considering this, as well as how Jessie and James were seemingly important enough to star as baddies in Pokemon Yellow, I believe it's not completely out of the question that Jessie and James could make a debut. I am not saying all of this, however, in attempt to dogmatically support the two as the only possible representatives of Team Rocket (the standard grunts or even Giovanni would be just fine by me) but merely to explore possibilities.

Wobbuffet. He has been a pokeball pokemon since Melee and is extremely popular. Not to mention Jessie has had him for a long time.

There are two main problems I see with Wobbuffet making the cut:
1) His movement would definitely be awkward with his stumpy legs and stiff figure. I recall Sakurai mentioning that he is really only looking toward characters who have the physical build to fight fluently. (Couldn't give you the source for the life of me, but I'm sure you know what I'm referring to.)
2) His moveset in the actual games is comprised of a grand total of seven moves--none of which are offensive in nature. We have Charm, Counter, Destiny Bond, Encore, Mirror Coat, Safeguard, and Splash. Now, I know that Sakurai is a magician, but I don't see how even he could conjure up a solid moveset with so little to work with.

However, I don't support Mewtwo being tacked on to this. AT ALL.

Would you be more willing for this should it be the only way Mewtwo is playable in the upcoming Smash? The idea of this being his only shot was the primary concept of this particular Team Rocket character. And considering this, I threw in some minor edits to the six stimulating questions in the first post.

 

[lobotheduck21]

We are basing this on Sakurai's statement that characters must have originated in video games to be considered for Smash Bros., right? Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't that in response to the inclusion of anime franchises, such as Dragon Ball or Naruto? Pokemon originated as a video game, but there is no doubt whatsoever that the anime is what molded the Pokemon casting in Smash Bros. (Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Mewtwo, and Lucario are only so iconic because of the anime--there is no denying that). Sakurai nearly had to adhere to the anime influence due to the fact that nearly all Pokemon characters are generic. Considering this, as well as how Jessie and James were seemingly important enough to star as baddies in Pokemon Yellow, I believe it's not completely out of the question that Jessie and James could make a debut. I am not saying all of this, however, in attempt to dogmatically support the two as the only possible representatives of Team Rocket (the standard grunts or even Giovanni would be just fine by me) but merely to explore possibilities.



There are two main problems I see with Wobbuffet making the cut:
1) His movement would definitely be awkward with his stumpy legs and stiff figure. I recall Sakurai mentioning that he is really only looking toward characters who have the physical build to fight fluently. (Couldn't give you the source for the life of me, but I'm sure you know what I'm referring to.)
2) His moveset in the actual games is comprised of a grand total of seven moves--none of which are offensive in nature. We have Charm, Counter, Destiny Bond, Encore, Mirror Coat, Safeguard, and Splash. Now, I know that Sakurai is a magician, but I don't see how even he could conjure up a solid moveset with so little to work with.

There's a reason why PT was based on the pokemon game and not on ash. Look at the criteria for smash, the CHARACTER must have originated from a video game. Jessie and James originated from the anime, not from a game.

As for wobbuffet, he is in a much better situation then ivysaur, who walks on for legs all the time. His moveset itself is why i'm so interested in the character in the first place as it is something that we don't have in smash, a true "Counter character". We don't have one character that can counter and deflect projectiles, and wobbuffet can use Encore if it hits to force the opponent to use the same move over and over. (kind of broken but Sakuria can easily solve this problem).

 

[Parasol]

There's a reason why PT was based on the pokemon game and not on ash. Look at the criteria for smash, the CHARACTER must have originated from a video game. Jessie and James originated from the anime, not from a game.

You ignored my entire argument above, which is fine; I'll let this one go. Could you provide me a link to a collection of Sakurai's quotes regarding the criteria for Smash candidates? I've searched the forums in and out but can't seem to find anything.

As for wobbuffet, he is in a much better situation then ivysaur, who walks on for legs all the time. His moveset itself is why i'm so interested in the character in the first place as it is something that we don't have in smash, a true "Counter character". We don't have one character that can counter and deflect projectiles, and wobbuffet can use Encore if it hits to force the opponent to use the same move over and over. (kind of broken but Sakuria can easily solve this problem).

Uhhm... Peach, Fox, Falco, Wolf, Marth, Ike, Lucario, Pit all have deflectors or counters of some sort, and in some cases they have both. We have plenty of counter characters. Going simply off the moveset, Wobbuffet would purely be a countering character, which is a no-no. His physical combat needs to be smooth. Ivysuar was able to do that because of flexibility, but Wobbuffet is just too rigid. That's how I see it, anyway. How would you make a Wobbuffet moveset work? I'm interested to see what your ideas are.

 

[SmashShadow]

if giovanni, then nidoking, nidoqueen, and rhydon, his most iconic pokemon.

persian!!!

 

[Deleted member]

He's talking about a complete counter character, as in one that doesn't do much fighting on it's own, but who's sole fighting style is to counter and reflect.

And even if this was the only way to have Mewtwo back, I still would not support it. It'd be a mockery of Mewtwo to have him a mere partner to a Rocket member. I'd say have him alone or not at all.

EDIT: Persian is not that iconic for Giovanni, as he hardly uses it in either the games OR the anime (Persian is not a battling Pokemon, but a mere pet).
However, Nidoking, Nidoqueen, and Rhydon are iconic to Giovanni.

 

[lobotheduck21]

You ignored my entire argument above, which is fine; I'll let this one go. Could you provide me a link to a collection of Sakurai's quotes regarding the criteria for Smash candidates? I've searched the forums in and out but can't seem to find anything.



Uhhm... Peach, Fox, Falco, Wolf, Marth, Ike, Lucario, Pit all have deflectors or counters of some sort, and in some cases they have both. We have plenty of counter characters. Going simply off the moveset, Wobbuffet would purely be a countering character, which is a no-no. His physical combat needs to be smooth. Ivysuar was able to do that because of flexibility, but Wobbuffet is just too rigid. That's how I see it, anyway. How would you make a Wobbuffet moveset work? I'm interested to see what your ideas are.

Did you read your argument, it says that characters must have originated in video games, and even though J&J originated in an anime based off a video game, they did not originated in a video game.

And I said a character that has both a reflecter and a counter peach, marth, ike, and lucario can counter projectiles, but they do not do damage. The SF trio can't counter physical moves. Being a pure counter character is what wobbuffet is about, something smash doesn't have. The ivysaur comparison wasn't about ivysaur being rigid. It was about ivysaur being a quadruped. If Sakurai can implement that, he can surely doing something with wobbuffet. Besides, it's not like wobbuffet can't hit stuff. Anyways, I'll have my moveset by Sunday due to school and stuff.

 

[BerryBomber]

If by the a miracle Jessie and James were included, id love to see their pokemon they had for themselves in the anime. For example:

James: Weepinbell, Cacnea, and Carnivine. Not only is each pokemon have their own gen, but who dosent want to see each pokemon try to hurt James for their victory stances? Haha

Jessie: Meowth, Wobbuffet, and Lickitung. 2 are from the same gen, and for her victory poses they could be trying to embarrass her as always.

But of coruse, that would never happen.

 

[8-peacock-8]

If Jessie and James got in.

This needs to be in!

 

[Yomi's Biggest Fan]

Well, unfortunately, Jessie and James have no chance. However, if we uses a generic Team Rocket goon, that could work or even Giovanni himself.

[COLLAPSE="Grunt Image"]

[/COLLAPSE]

Rocket Grunt: "You rang?"

I recently came with an idea that involves a Grunt using the most ionic of all Rocket Pokemon. The light weight will be Ratata, the most owned of all Rocket Pokemon and a nasty little bugger (Youngster Joey anyone?). It would attack using bites, tail attacks, and claws and would be the fastest and lightest. Arbok, the original smug snake with it's poison abilities and furious appetite. It would be the limbless heavy of the group and would fight using strikes, bites, and tail attacks. Last but not least Crowbat, the fully evolved form of the original Goddamn Bats (look it up on TV Tropes if you don't get it) and the winged midweight of the group. It would attack with wing attacks, bites, and screeching. These would be the true trouble and spoils to bear the Team Rocket name. Moveset below.
~~~Ratatta Possible Moveset~~~

B Hyper Fang
<-> B Tackle
Up B Pursuit
Down B Pokemon Switch
Final Smash Double Edge

~~~Arbok Possible Moveset~~~

B Ice/Fire/Thunder Fang
<-> B Poison Jab
Up B Coil
Down B Pokemon Switch
Final Smash Gunk Shot

~~~Crobat Possible Moveset~~~

B Confuse Ray
<-> B Leech Life
Up B Fly
Down B Pokemon Switch
Final Smash Giga Impact

 

[8-peacock-8]

Liking the ideas.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

I still don't see why Team Rocket ever cared about that pikachu.

The big explosion was caused by igniting Koffings gas, Pikachu didn't have exceptional game breaking, ground-type harming electrical powers until the fight against Brock

 

[fogbadge]

well it would be interesting to have a pokemon bad guy in smash, but id prefer it to be one of the main villains than one of the generic grunts

 

[8-peacock-8]

I still don't see why Team Rocket ever cared about that pikachu.

The big explosion was caused by igniting Koffings gas, Pikachu didn't have exceptional game breaking, ground-type harming electrical powers until the fight against Brock

Because Giovanni saw the future episodes ahead of everyone else.

 

[Arcadenik]

Jessie and James originated as anime characters so they are ineligible, but there is a PT replacement thread were they talk about a TR grunt

Anime characters who happen to be owned by Nintendo, making them eligible as well.

My idea for Team Rocket...

team and team

Play as Meowth who is teamed up with a Poison-type Pokemon like Ice Climbers. Switch Poison-type Pokemon with Down+B like Pokemon Trainer. Different Poison-type Pokemon give different movesets to support Meowth in different ways. Arbok provides long distance attacks and Weezing is ideal for aerial battles. Meowth provides the Poison-type Pokemon limbs to get around the "no limbs, no entry" rule.

 

[Deleted member]

Until Sakurai says otherwise, all anime characters are inelligible.
Even if they're owned by Nintendo like Ash or Rick Wheeler.

 

[jigglover]

I want to point out that if Giovanni got in, then I'd actually like it if he got Mewtwo. The Movies, shorts and special episodes don't get nearly enough credit in smash, and it would be an awesome shout-out to first ever movie AND Pokemon short. In fact, I'd prefer it if if Mewtwo got in anyway, Giovanni would be in the back-ground regardless!

 

[lobotheduck21]

Wobbuffet's Moveset[COLLAPSE="Moveset"]

Stats:

Size- 5
Weight- 3
Ground Speed- 4
Jump- 7
Aerial Speed- 2
Fall Speed- 8
Traction- 5

Due to him being a "Punching Bag", Wobbuffet takes 50% less knockback

A: Slap 2% "F"
AA: Slap, Slap 2%, 2% "F"
AAA: Slap, Slap, Tail Slap 2%, 2%, 6% "D"
Running A: Runs and slaps 11% "D"

Tilt:

U-Tilt: Small Headbuut 8% "C"
D-Tilt: Low Slap 9% "D"
F-Tilt: Head Clap 10% "B"

Air:

N-Air: Tail Spin 15% "B"
U-Air: Overhead Clap 17% "B"
D-Air: Tail Drill 3% x 7 "D"
F-Air: Karate Chop 15% "B"
B-Air: Tail Whip 18% "A"

Grabs:

Pummel: Slap
U-Grab: Wobbuffet Headbutts his opponent up. 13% "C"
D-Grab: Wobbuffet Slaps his opponent with his tail, sending down, otg. 14% "C"
F-Grab: Wobbuffet Slaps his opponent. 12% "C"
B-Grab: Wobbuffet does a round house tail. 12% "C"

Smashes:

U-Smash: Head Smash 4% x 3, 12% "B"
D-Smash: Tail Sweep 18% "B"
F-Smash: Back Hand 22% "A"

Taunts:

1: Wobbuffet Salutes and says "Wobbuffet
2: Wobbuffet Puffs out his chest
3: Wobbuffet Yawns

Victory Poses:

1: Same as Taunt 1
2: Wobbuffet does the Egyptian dance
3: Wobbuffet eats a feast then says "Wobba"

Specials:

N-Special Counter: Puffs out his chest for 3 seconds. When Wobbuffet is hit, he slaps his opponent, dealing 150% of the damage he would have received and does the same amount of the moves knock back.

F-Special Encore: Shoots a ball of light that does 0%. When it hits an opponent, it traps them in a loop of the last special move they did for 7 seconds. (if no special move was used, it uses the N-Special). When he casts it with in 30 seconds of the last casting time, the encore fails and wobbuffet looks surprised

U-Special Tailicopter: Spins his tail really fast, causing him to rise to (around a ness double jump) in height. Becomes helpless afterwords.

D-Special Magic coat: Reflects a projectile at 2x the speed, dealing 150% of the projectiles damage and the same amount of the projectiles knock back

Final Smash Destiny Bound: Wobbuffet resets his damage counter to 300% and is given an aura. When wobbuffet is KO'ed while he has this aura, the KO'er is dragged off the screen and is KO'ed by wobbuffet. (When wobbuffet dies due to SD, the aura goes away when he respawns)

[/COLLAPSE]

Letters in quotes next to the moves are the knock back level.

"A": Great
"B": Good
"C": Ok
"D": Bad
"F": None

Play style: Wobbuffet is a patience players best choice. He is a defensive tank that requires the best timing to rack up the damage on his opponent.

Tips when playing as him:

-Know what kind of character you are playing against, (knowing when to use his counter or his magic coat).

-Know when to use encore, (this will be the difference between winning and losing, a encore while a character is coming back to the stage will hurt their chances of surviving).

Tips when playing against him:

-Throws are your best friend, (he doesn't have a counter for your throws, use them a lot)

any questions just ask.

 

[jigglover]

I still don't see why Team Rocket ever cared about that pikachu.

The big explosion was caused by igniting Koffings gas, Pikachu didn't have exceptional game breaking, ground-type harming electrical powers until the fight against Brock

Well, they could have seen that machine that Pikachu was in in Oak's lab in the first episode, which may have enhanced Pikachu in some way. They were possibly planning to break into the Lab the following day or whatever, but once they did Oak revealed to them that he had already given it to a Pokemon trainer named Ash, and he was headed for that city (I forgot :D) so they high-tailed it over there and tracked him ever since.

 

[lobotheduck21]

Moveset is up

 

[SmasherMaster]

Anime characters who happen to be owned by Nintendo, making them eligible as well.

My idea for Team Rocket...

team and team

Play as Meowth who is teamed up with a Poison-type Pokemon like Ice Climbers. Switch Poison-type Pokemon with Down+B like Pokemon Trainer. Different Poison-type Pokemon give different movesets to support Meowth in different ways. Arbok provides long distance attacks and Weezing is ideal for aerial battles. Meowth provides the Poison-type Pokemon limbs to get around the "no limbs, no entry" rule.

Meowth's partners should be Wobbuffet, Wheezing and Carnevine. Three teammates to switch from, giving him each. Weezing being a more aerial pokemon, obbuffet being more of a counter pokemon and carnevine to be more of a projectile based character.

 

[FalKoopa]

This is a test post.

EDIT: It took me goddamn 5 attempts to post this. (>_>)

 

[SuperBrawler]

The owner doesn't seem to be active...

Anyway, thanks Fal.

I guess I'll try to think up a moveset.

 

[APC99]

Although it'd be amazing to see Jessie and James' faces, and they certainly are Nintendo all-stars (I don't even WATCH the Pokemon anime, even when it started, and I knew who they are in kindergarten), I want Meowth and Mewtwo as their own characters. But for Meowth's final smash, I always wanted the balloon to appear as Jessie and James run out with Wobbuffet and cause some trouble.

Also, cutting Red is bad.

 

[SuperBrawler]

I see Meowth, and with

Arbok and Weezing
Or
Arbok and Inkay
Or
Cacnea and Carnivine