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Prince Bistro Tournament Results!

Yokoson

Smash Journeyman
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This statement is indicative of another problem I have. The rules seem to change all the time, and they seem to change to benefit you. Summit and Skyworld are BANNED, but they are legal at your tourney. Oh, look at that, the characters you play do really well on those stages. Big surprise.
Yes, we add and take away levels based on player request. I wanted Skyword, Richard wanted Summit. Jingo Joe didn't like Green Hill Zone because of chain grabbing and because thats the only the the level was used we took it away. Shadow Moses was taken out for similar reasons. Like a level, don't like a level then tell us.

MK is banned in teams? Hmm, that wouldn't have anything to do with the fact that you consistently lose to that team, would it?
We consistently lose to most teams so no that wasn't a factor. We mostly banned him to see how things would go. Teams isn't nearly as serious as singles and (at the time we banned him) there was no entry fee and we were handing out free prizes. Since then I've gotten a few praises for the ban with only Infinity complaining. If you have a problem with the ban then bring it up.


And what the hell was up with the seeding last time? As far as I can tell, there was none. If
you want to run a tournament without seeding, fine. Just make it a hardline stance, because in other PBT's I've seen skill levels assigned to players so they would be bracketed properly.
Seeding was the same as it always is. Put the usual top 4 players on different ends. Separate crews, brothers, and friends. Call over db4a, Infinity, Melee1 (or someone similar) to help tweek. Then leave the bracket open so people can see and maybe request even more changes. The last bracket was a little bottom heavy though and that was mostly because I didn't know about any out the OTers.

Even the way you compressed the end of the last tourney bothered me. If you'd just said "Guys, we're out of time, we have to do it this way," it would have been fine. We're reasonable people, we would have understood. By saying "No, we've always done it this way," when there are a dozen people who KNOW that's not how we've done it, is just stupid. Just man up and admit you were wrong, there's no reason to drag this out anymore. If you just say you made a mistake, and will clarify ALL the rules in the future, we'll be cool about it and keep coming to your tournaments. There's no reason you have to go through all of this.
We will be clarifying the rules in the future. This is ultimately a battle about theory not practice. If you guys want a change to the rules they'll probably be changed (not during a tourney though). We don't have a problem changing things.
 

8AngeL8

Smash Lord
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Yes, we add and take away levels based on player request. I wanted Skyword, Richard wanted Summit. Jingo Joe didn't like Green Hill Zone because of chain grabbing and because thats the only the the level was used we took it away. Shadow Moses was taken out for similar reasons. Like a level, don't like a level then tell us.
Okay, I'm requesting that you remove Summit, Skyworld, Norfair, Corneria, Luigi's Mansion, Pictochat, Pirate Ship, and Pipes. Also, move Pokemon Stadium 1 and Yoshi's Island to counterpick status.



We consistently lose to most teams so no that wasn't a factor. We mostly banned him to see how things would go. Teams isn't nearly as serious as singles and (at the time we banned him) there was no entry fee and we were handing out free prizes. Since then I've gotten a few praises for the ban with only Infinity complaining. If you have a problem with the ban then bring it up.
I'm bringing it up now. MK isn't even broken in singles, so why ban him in teams, where he loses a lot of effectiveness? The ban has been in place long enough to "see how things would go."


Seeding was the same as it always is. Put the usual top 4 players on different ends. Separate crews, brothers, and friends. Call over db4a, Infinity, Melee1 (or someone similar) to help tweek. Then leave the bracket open so people can see and maybe request even more changes. The last bracket was a little bottom heavy though and that was mostly because I didn't know about any out the OTers.
Really? Why did Melee1 have to play someone first round? Why did (no offense) Khaoz get a bye first round? If there were any sort of seeding going on, Melee1 would have had a bye first round.



We will be clarifying the rules in the future. This is ultimately a battle about theory not practice. If you guys want a change to the rules they'll probably be changed (not during a tourney though). We don't have a problem changing things.
This is most definitely an argument about practice. The theory behind what you do is acceptable. You're not running an SBR certified tournament, you want to change rules. Fine, whatever. The problem is your practice of changing the rules midstream and saying that it's all by the book.
 

Zankoku

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Do kirbykid and Yokoson still adamantly believe that they are in the right here? I am appalled.
 

DoH

meleeitonme.tumblr.com
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Kirbykid played Kirby in Melee for 7 years, he's quite adamant when he thinks he's right.
 

Yokoson

Smash Journeyman
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Messages
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Flower Mound, Tx
Okay, I'm requesting that you remove Summit, Skyworld, Norfair, Corneria, Luigi's Mansion, Pictochat, Pirate Ship, and Pipes. Also, move Pokemon Stadium 1 and Yoshi's Island to counterpick status.
Noted.

I'm bringing it up now. MK isn't even broken in singles, so why ban him in teams, where he loses a lot of effectiveness? The ban has been in place long enough to "see how things would go."
And noted.



Really? Why did Melee1 have to play someone first round? Why did (no offense) Khaoz get a bye first round? If there were any sort of seeding going on, Melee1 would have had a bye first round.
Because thats where Melee1 placed himself? And again I didn't know anything about the OTers.




This is most definitely an argument about practice. The theory behind what you do is acceptable. You're not running an SBR certified tournament, you want to change rules. Fine, whatever. The problem is your practice of changing the rules midstream and saying that it's all by the book.
SBR or not its just a name, we can lose it. Again the change part I was talking about. And again again things will be more clear in the future.


Kirbykid played Kirby in Melee for 7 years, he's quite adamant when he thinks he's right.
As is most everyone here when they think they are.
 

8AngeL8

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Because thats where Melee1 placed himself? And again I didn't know anything about the OTers.
Khaoz isn't from out of town, he's from Dallas. If you don't know how good he is, why is he getting a bye? I'm not trying to rag on Khaoz, he's my friend, but he got 33rd at that tournament. He should not be getting to skip the first round.


SBR or not its just a name, we can lose it. Again the change part I was talking about. And again again things will be more clear in the future.
I'm glad it's going to be more clear, but the usage of "SBR certified" is where this entire argument is coming from. By the use of that term, certain things are implied. That's why Hylian and his car drove 5+ hours to get here. Either follow the rules to the letter and say it's SBR, or change the rules and make it clear that it isn't.
 

Overswarm

is laughing at you
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I'm wondering if I should just request he get a custom title that warns others that his TO abilities are well below par?
 

Inui

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kirbykid is obviously a garbage TO, lol. I completely agree with Hylian and everyone else. I hope your tournaments aren't successful anymore because you don't deserve it.
 

TheTantalus

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hmmm

KirbyKid you could've just saved yourself a lot of trouble and posted all the rules clearly up front instead of being vague- this would saved you a lot of drama and only taken a few minutes and saved a thread's worth of drama.

even so, it seems like there was no point in making the rules different other than you felt like it, which is pretty self centered and degrading to the community. You should probably focus more on what everyone else would like. Throwing things in for a challenge every now and then is fine, but that doesn't mean you have to change the format of finals or unban skyworld lol.
 

Kal

Smash Champion
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o thx for purmisson hyli

edit: oh em gee new sig
 

Overswarm

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Also, Kirbykid? I'm teaching English right now. My 10th and 11th grade classes know better than you do, apparently.
 

Kal

Smash Champion
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Holy crap, my old posts update as I change my signature. That's amazing!
 

Yokoson

Smash Journeyman
Joined
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Messages
339
Location
Flower Mound, Tx
Khaoz isn't from out of town, he's from Dallas. If you don't know how good he is, why is he getting a bye? I'm not trying to rag on Khaoz, he's my friend, but he got 33rd at that tournament. He should not be getting to skip the first round.
Hes not OT? Then thats my bad then. As for byes during the first round I just wasn't mindful of the practice. It seems that it distorts the final placings a tad, which isn't a big deal to me, but if it is to you I'll be more mindful in the future. I like to have the "lower" tiered players playing their games early so they can leave early if they want anyway.


Overswarm said:
I'm wondering if I should just request he get a custom title that warns others that his TO abilities are well below par?
Sub par according to who? A few out of towners, or some people who have never been to our tourneys? Most of the people that come to our tourneys feel they are very well run. But whatever the mods are brining the hammer down. I honestly don't think it'll affect our average turn out any. It is a local tourney after all. And thats all it was ment to be. Not being connected to the Smash Super Circuit isn't the worst thing.
 

Zankoku

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Most of the people that come to our tourneys feel they are very well run. But whatever the mods are brining the hammer down. I honestly don't think it'll affect our average turn out any.
If your average turnout is a bunch of locals who rarely visit Smashboards, if at all, then you're absolutely right. After all, I see pretty much no support for you guys in this thread despite your claims that the majority support you, so I can only assume that this majority also lack the ability to go online.
 

8AngeL8

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Hes not OT? Then thats my bad then. As for byes during the first round I just wasn't mindful of the practice. It seems that it distorts the final placings a tad, which isn't a big deal to me, but if it is to you I'll be more mindful in the future. I like to have the "lower" tiered players playing their games early so they can leave early if they want anyway.
It's not an enormous problem to me, simply because the same few people are winning every time anyway. However, it's yet another rule that seems to change on a whim every time I come to PBT.




Sub par according to who? A few out of towners, or some people who have never been to our tourneys? Most of the people that come to our tourneys feel they are very well run. But whatever the mods are brining the hammer down. I honestly don't think it'll affect our average turn out any. It is a local tourney after all. And thats all it was ment to be. Not being connected to the Smash Super Circuit isn't the worst thing.
Smoothly run and well put together are two different things. I've been to an items on all stages tournament that was smoothly run. I don't think you hear all the whispers between players about how lame your rules changes are. I can't count the number of times somebody has looked at the counterpick list and said "What? How the hell is this stage allowed?" I constantly hear people mutter about not being able to pick Meta Knight in teams. Just because not everyone in Dallas is willing to call you out doesn't mean they like it.
 

Yaj

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jan 25, 2009
Messages
14
As you can probably tell, I made an account just for posting this, because I strongly feel it needs to be said. I believe you are all being too harsh on Kirby Kid.

As I'm new, I believe I should give myself an introduction. I go by YAJ, its just a name. I play brawl poorly. I was never good at melee. The only tournament I attend is Kirby Kids. I find it more fun to chill with the friends I go with and to spectate the good players. That said, its obvious I lack the credentials needed. I don't have the 8000 posts of Hylian or the back room privileges or the respect gained from posting for years. I can only look at this as logically as I can.

The large problem here seems to be that Kirby kid did not post his rules before hand. His argument is that it didn't need to be posted, his rule set was SBR certified. Those against kirby kid say that it wasn't.

So we come to a problem. Apparently, some rules on the SBR rule list are more important than others. Can we not see where kirby kid may have been confused by this?

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=187736

That is the rule set that has been linked so much in this thread. No where in it does it claim certain rules are more important than others. What is the most important rule to you? 3 stocks? No items? That FD is neutral? That Hyrule Temple is banned? What rule makes or breaks the SBR rule set?

Now, the first argument that comes to mind is that they are equal, and not following any rule is enough to not be "SBR certified", but there at the bottom is that final statement that has caused so much trouble.

"Any rule-list that closely follows this guideline may include a note in its opening post (suggested beneath the tournaments title in smaller font) that reads "SBR Certified"."

That thing is faulty. Define closely. Is that changing one rule? Two rules? Ten rules? Changing it to four stocks instead of three? Unbanning spear pillar? We're all going to have a different opinion of close.

When this was made, it is obvious the writer believed we would be able to respect each other's opinion of close. This is apparently not possible. Although I am new, I have a suggestion. Do a soft re-write of the rules.

I suggest that for every stage, every rule, and every outside action (such as stage striking) that goes on in an SBR certified tournament, a point value is assigned. Different amounts of points would be assigned to each rule, each stage, and each action based on its importance (IE - "more important" rules would be worth more). The end result of your tournaments rules would need to be in X amount of points from the total points on the rule list.

For example, lets say there are 1000 total points. Adding or removing a stock might lower you 5 points. Unbanning Spear Pillar might subtract 7 points. Unbanning Mario Bros. would subtract 15 points and so on. If your tournament, at the end of the subtractions, had, say, 925 points, your rule set would be SBR certified.

Tedious? Yes, very, but until you define the almighty word "closely"in that final statement of the rules, we can only go with what the TO defines as closely. Kirby Kid believes his tournament follows the rules closely, and there for, it IS, under your own rules, SBR certified. I'm sorry, I know I'm new, and I know that my argument will probably mean nothing, but I find it disgusting that you are attacking kirby kid for following your rules, to the point of suggesting giving him a title to display his "poor tournament organizing skills". Maybe some of you should have titles for writing poor rules......
 

Zankoku

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Here's our definition for "closely":
We have included modular pieces in the SBR Ruleset guidelines.

Specifically, there are the Starter/Counter and Counter/Banned sections in the Stage List, and the Optional Rules Section below the Doubles Rules section.

It is literally impossible to Copy/Paste the guideline and actually have a function rules list, but it's very easy to see what we have set up to be adjusted as the TO sees fit.

The rest of it is applied in a manner to standardize tournaments.

tl;dr you can have Castle Siege in Starter, you can have people play out Sudden Death, but ban Meta Knight or mess with stock/timer/set structure and you're altering the fundamentals of the rules.

By the way, seeing as how this is the first case I've ever heard of this happening, I somehow doubt the ruleset was hard to understand; rather I'm more given to believe that Kirbykid chose to interpret the ruleset as he saw fit for his own personal benefit, and hide behind words with his silly little English major argument point.
 

Yaj

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Oh good you do have one. Can you link me to where it was posted before now?
 

Zankoku

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Do we really have to write it out? Doesn't Kirbykid feel special for having such a line required in the ruleset. Just like all the people who managed to make manufacturers apply the warning label "Do not attempt to stop chainsaw with hands."
 

Yaj

Smash Rookie
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You're a mod, and old member, and someone who is entitled to respect, so please don't think these next words lack that.

Yes, absolutely yes, and you should have had it in the first place. I do not represent kirby kid, so don't act like this "clause" is for him. If you are going to make it so that certain rules are given priority on your list, something that isn't at all hinted to on your list, then you must make it clear or be doomed to repeat this fiasco. Kirby kid loves brawl. I love brawl. No one wants this.

Another suggestion, put asterisks by unchangeable rules. Do something. You cannot go running around saying the word "closely" and expect us to all know what "YOU" mean by it.

EDIT - What rules are fundamental? Which aren't? Its this kind of clarification error that started this mess.
 

Zankoku

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2006 is not old rofl. 2006 is just over two years. Do you know how long SSBM has been out? Longer than that. Do you know how long MLG has run Smash events? Also longer than that. Giving praise where it isn't due pisses me off, so please avoid it if possible.

GENERAL RULES, DOUBLES RULES, and STAGES STARTER, COUNTER, BANNED are unchangeable without **** good reason. STARTER/COUNTER, COUNTER/BANNED, OPTIONAL RULES have to be changed or chosen because a ruleset can't be interpreted if not. I'm surprised this doesn't make sense. Kirbykid's been here since 2002 according to his join date, he must've seen how tournaments are run, I'm surprised this doesn't make sense to him.
 

Yaj

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I did a quick re read. No section clearly states that changes there un-certify your tournament, but the stage section does point you in the "right" direction with the demand to move stages from starter/counterpick and counterpick/banned sections to their proper homes. I even found another oddity

"we recommend these rules be used as a base guideline"

That's posted right above the general section. Are you sure those are unchangeable?

Anyway. I'm beginning to see how discussing this with you will be a challenge. With such comments as "2006 is not old rofl" I know it will be hard to convince you that words like "closely" and "old" are based on opinion unless clarified.
 

Zankoku

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Maybe I should speak in clearer terms. Don't butter me up, buttercup.

They're very changeable. Just don't expect to be SBR certified if you do change them.
 

Yaj

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Maybe I should speak in clearer terms. Don't butter me up, buttercup.

They're very changeable. Just don't expect to be SBR certified if you do change them.
Then please remove this quote, if that is going to be the SBR stance

"Any rule-list that closely follows this guideline may include a note in its opening post (suggested beneath the tournaments title in smaller font) that reads "SBR Certified"

You still can't see how a TO could be confused? With these mixed messages?
 

Zankoku

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[02:45] [SCOTU] well, i think it's obvious what's going to happen now.
[02:46] [SCOTU] quite simply, the "closely" is going to be taken out
[02:46] [SCOTU] and a literal ruleset will be made

Wherein we play the game of things like "Well, Meta Knight being banned isn't in the SBR rules list, but adding just this one rule out of thirteen is pretty minor, so I'm still closely following them, right?"

...Yes, yes you are. Maybe. Congratulations for playing lawyer with adverbs. Since arguing over word use can get stupid, I guess removing the possibility is the only solution.
 

Yaj

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Like I said, it's to avoid confusion, and can only result in good. If you want to keep leniency, use a point system like the one I suggested in my first post. Above all, do not punish people like Kirby kid for making honest mistakes. It might be cool to laugh at him, but anyone who went to the tournament knows that, if he made a mistake (though if we look at those words like a lawyer, he didn't) it was an accident, and completely undeserving of the assault he has taken from those with colorful names.

Again, respect, respect. You're a mod, I should watch my tongue. Just attempt to understand me and kirby kid. The rules as they are cannot be followed in the way clearly intended by the SBR. There are so many options from here. You could do a slight revision, clearly stating some rules are unchangeable. You could revote on the iffy stages to force them to all either be Starter, Counterpick, or Banned. You could go with a point system. You could clarify.

If there is an error in clarification, in a situation like this, no one is at fault. My argument suggests solutions, but there doesn't need to be one. I just believe Kirby Kid has done no wrong, and needs someone to point that out.
 

Yaj

Smash Rookie
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Fine, no more. I guess I'll just have to speak to you respectfully because thats the proper way to hold a discussion.
 

8AngeL8

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Yaj said:
Lots of stuff
I don't know how many times the mods have to spell it out for you guys. The parts that TO's can tailor are clearly indicated. The stage lists HAVE to be tailored, they can't just be copied and pasted. Other parts say things like "Grands finals will be AT LEAST 3/5." I don't see how that could be more clear.

A drastic, potentially match altering change like banning MK or allowing truly ridiculous stages like Summit or Skyworld not only flies in the face of competitive gaming, but is nowhere indicated as being an option in the SBR ruleset.

If KirbyKid wants to run a tourney with the warped rules he's come up with, he's free to do that. The SBR is not a fascist regime that forces you to run tournaments their way. However, if you're going to say it's "SBR certified," your tournament has to follow their rules.
 

kirbykid

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As you can probably tell, I made an account just for posting this, because I strongly feel it needs to be said. I believe you are all being too harsh on Kirby Kid.

but I find it disgusting that you are attacking kirby kid for following your rules, to the point of suggesting giving him a title to display his "poor tournament organizing skills". Maybe some of you should have titles for writing poor rules......
Thanks Yaj. Expect a nice bonus at the next PBT.

I came up with the point system as well. In fact, I'm rewriting the SBR rules myself to provide an example of an air tight document.

Reading skills and reading comprehension are always important. That's why I love/respect English so much.
 
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