Dezmu
Smash Ace
Carl plz pm me yer cell I need to speak with you!
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Pro Impact BI-WEEKLIES - Calgary, AB
- Thread starter Randall00
- Start date
Leviiiii !!
I had a good thing going here. People where calling me a "Tyrant" and "Mighty"! Common. Stop screwing things up for me, here...
Yesh.
But really... It's good that Levi has finaly placed higher than me at the bi-weeklies. He's a great technical player and deserves it.
As for M... well...
He just read me like a cheap children's book writen in a huge font filled with simple words. >.<
How the hell do you know these guys Shiro?? I only found out about this place like yesterday lol.
Can anyone point me to a good engine FA!Q? It infuriates me not knowing my options and how the game behaves. I think I'm getting the hang of moving about the screen and stuff, but I'd really like to know the data for okizeme options, blocking data and cancels, etc...
I like to play rushdown, but it doesn't go so well when I don't really know when or if I can hit the other guy.
God, i'm such a ****ing noob... the tables they have turned Ricky. oh my. lol
Nice website btw.... erm not this one. That impact one i mean.
Can anyone point me to a good engine FA!Q? It infuriates me not knowing my options and how the game behaves. I think I'm getting the hang of moving about the screen and stuff, but I'd really like to know the data for okizeme options, blocking data and cancels, etc...
I like to play rushdown, but it doesn't go so well when I don't really know when or if I can hit the other guy.
God, i'm such a ****ing noob... the tables they have turned Ricky. oh my. lol
Nice website btw.... erm not this one. That impact one i mean.
FalseFalco
Smash Master
lol BKB at an introductory level of smash you can't skip ahead because you have previous fighting game knowledge. You have to forget all that.
Once you understand all the moves and stages and percents as well as what characters you like and how the matchups work (the 'engine'), then fighting game theory will start to help you progress faster than people with no previous experience.
Once you understand all the moves and stages and percents as well as what characters you like and how the matchups work (the 'engine'), then fighting game theory will start to help you progress faster than people with no previous experience.
MARIOWNAGE
Smash Lord
I know exactly what you're going through here, Ricky's trying to get me into 3S and I'm like HOW DOES SOMEONE GET OUT OF A COMBO?!?!?!?
Actually, I'm curious too. There has to be a good "game engine" FAQ somewhere. Did the people at Smashboards ever write one? I can't imagine GameFAQs would be a great source for really accurate info on that.
It's definitely important to know when and how you can attack, when you can jump, when you get your upB and when you lose it, and all that other good stuff like block stun and such.
It's definitely important to know when and how you can attack, when you can jump, when you get your upB and when you lose it, and all that other good stuff like block stun and such.
nitro-blazer
Smash Lord
Guys, I hurt my arm and now it takes me ages to type correctly. That, and I can't play smash until Wednesday. (I can still play slower games like rpgs though). Also, it hurts to put shirts on.
This message was brought to you by Alex's left hand.
This message was brought to you by Alex's left hand.
FalseFalco
Smash Master
fap too hard?
nitro-blazer
Smash Lord
yeah, they really need to put some kind of health warning on porn.
'Increased hours of exposure may cause personnal injury.'
Dezmu
Smash Ace
Radell I need to that also speak to you asap. Please pm me your msn or aim.
I'll also be going to your ranbat with Bkb when I'm down in Cowtown. We can speak in person then. Hopfully things go well and the western Canadian fighting game scene gets its proper boost. ttyl
-Shiro420
I'll also be going to your ranbat with Bkb when I'm down in Cowtown. We can speak in person then. Hopfully things go well and the western Canadian fighting game scene gets its proper boost. ttyl
-Shiro420
kithkin
Smash Champion
ITS OVER!
but yeah, glad to hear other people are stepping up to the plate and offering more challenge for the top three triangle. (not that i was, but i'm lucky)
and yeah chad, our matches are hilarious cause were both incredibly predictable.
also, alex, interestingly enough in the hands department, my arm got mauled by a (i dont know what) thing in tucson, its pretty funny actually.
edit: just kidding, it was actually a pool toy.
I will likly be at the next bi-weeklie. cant go too long without smash.
I would have to disagree. Since I'm already extremely familiar with ideas like controlling space, footsies, frame advantage/disadvantage, okizeme, cancels vs links, etc, all I need to know are the options available in these situations to get an idea of the proper action to take.
It's not like I'll be a PRO PLAYER after reading a good FAQ, and I still have to get my hands to learn how to execute the theory, but at least I'll be able to learn the engine quickly, SEE the mistakes I'm making, and hopefully see opennings that I wouldn't have seen otherwise.
In any case it's better than being a button mashing noob right? :D At least I'm trying to do my homework.
I did find the smashwiki, which helped me figure out a lot. But still nothing on okizeme...
If any of you guys could help me I would really appreciate it. Basically, what options do you have when getting up after a knockdown, how much invincibility+vulnerable recovery are on each of these options, does the invincibility/vulnerable recovery ratio change at different percentages, and do the tech-recoverys (roll + kip up) behave the same way?
Shiro: I Hate to dissapoint, but aren't you coming to my place THIS weekend? The next smash tourney is in 2 weeks time... I know it says bi-weekly, but apparently it's actually bi-monthly.
FalseFalco
Smash Master
But smash isn't even a matter of a different engine, it's really a matter of different rules to begin with. Smash doesn't even look like a fighting game until you watch two experienced players go at it. Fighting game players generally go from button mashing noob -> knowing all the moves and matchups -> trying to apply advanced techniques(Very long stage) -> mindgames. Smash goes Learning percents and the rules of the game -> knowing all the moves and matchups and stages(A very very very long stage) -> Learning about advanced techniques -> applying advanced techniques -> Mindgames. You won't even need to worry about spacing or frames until you've mastered the moderate level of play. Besides, you wont even know how to until you've played for a long time. All I'm saying is that there's no shortcut.
Randall00
Propitious Plumber
Haha, I'm glad you fielded the explanation there, Carl, I was gonna disagree too and lord knows we don't need MORE gigantic Randall posts everywhere. 
Okizeme, for those who don't know, is a term for standing up when you're knocked on your back. I haven't really heard it used in Smash, but it's used a lot in SF.
I'll post my explanation of Smash's oki system in a few minutes. I'll wait until the intermission in the hockey game. :D
I'll post my explanation of Smash's oki system in a few minutes. I'll wait until the intermission in the hockey game. :D
So, this is my explanation of the teching/wakeup game in Smash. If I'm wrong on any point, or someone has something add, just chime in.
When you are hit in Smash, you are launched in a set direction and you cannot move your character for x frames (this could possibly be 0), where x is determined by the properties of the given move and the percentage you have. Put someone at 100% and hit them with DK's dair as an example. Your character will fly through the air in a set pose. This really only applies to a few moves and at high percentages, but it's worth noting that you aren't always able to DI.
Anyway, at any other time, you are rotating/spinning in the air. If you are spinning, you can do a number of things. One, you can do aerial moves, but you CAN'T airdodge. The other thing you can do is tech, and you do this by pressing L, R, or Z a few frames before you hit the ground. Note that you can't tech if you aren't spinning (ie, if you shook out of it in the air, or did an aerial move to eliminate your spinning).
When you tech, you are invincible during your teching animation, but you are vulnerable for a few small frames at the end (you can't block or jump during this time either). When you tech roll, you are invincible during your roll animation (you can even roll through land mines; they'll explode and you'll be fine), but again, at the end of your roll, for a few short frames you can be hit.
If you miss a tech, your options are to either stand up (press up on the stick), do an attack as you stand up (press A or B), or roll to one side or the other (press left or right on the stick). It should be noted that, I believe, if you miss a tech you can't do any of these options for a few short frames, so you can be hit on the ground. During any of your animations, you are invincible just like when you do a tech or a tech roll, and they have the same problem of being vulnerable at the end. If you do an attack when you stand up, you are invincible during the attack, and your attack does block stun, but are again vulnerable at the end. If you do a wakeup attack and someone blocks it, you are often easily block thrown (except if you are fighting against really slippery characters and your attack pushes them back a bit).
It is worth noting that teching, like parrying in 3s, is timing based. That is, you can't spam L and R to tech (just like you can't spam forward to parry), which also means you can miss techs because you had been pressing L to do something. For instance, if you have been doing lots of shffl moves, but you were attacked in the middle of it, you'll often have a hard time teching because the L-cancels you had been doing will make teching not work. Also, if you try to tech but are attacked before you land, you'll often have a hard time trying to "re-tech" because the game won't give it to you. After a while, you'll usually be able to see these things happen to your opponent, and be able to capitalize. You can usually smell when a tech will be missed because your opponent was probably pressing L beforehand, and then you can set up a powerful move (a Marth tipper, a Falcon knee, etc).
It's also worth noting that different characters have varying tech and techrolling animations which take different numbers of frames to execute. Characters with long techrolls have a disadvantage, because you can see the techroll happening and plan to attack during that vulnerable time (Mewtwo and G&W are examples).
Techrolling is usually the best option if you're going to tech and try to avoid more combos (say, techrolling Ganon's dair). Most of the good characters have fast enough techrolls to not be punished by that vulnerability.
I think that's all I have to say.
Oh, one more; most of these properties also apply to wakeup game off the ledge, except attacking off a ledge by pressing A is different whether you are higher than 100% or lower (the higher attack is slower and has less knockback). Many wakeup ledge attacks are really good, and it's often a good idea to do this (DK's, for example, attacks a big distance during his invincibility frames, but then comes back so you can't be hit as easily). You also have other options off the ledge, such as dropping down and jumping up to do an attack, but if you're hit before you land, you'll lose your second jump (you used it to come over the top), so be warned. Ledge game is a bit different than okizeme though, so there are other things to note about this that I won't make here.
When you are hit in Smash, you are launched in a set direction and you cannot move your character for x frames (this could possibly be 0), where x is determined by the properties of the given move and the percentage you have. Put someone at 100% and hit them with DK's dair as an example. Your character will fly through the air in a set pose. This really only applies to a few moves and at high percentages, but it's worth noting that you aren't always able to DI.
Anyway, at any other time, you are rotating/spinning in the air. If you are spinning, you can do a number of things. One, you can do aerial moves, but you CAN'T airdodge. The other thing you can do is tech, and you do this by pressing L, R, or Z a few frames before you hit the ground. Note that you can't tech if you aren't spinning (ie, if you shook out of it in the air, or did an aerial move to eliminate your spinning).
When you tech, you are invincible during your teching animation, but you are vulnerable for a few small frames at the end (you can't block or jump during this time either). When you tech roll, you are invincible during your roll animation (you can even roll through land mines; they'll explode and you'll be fine), but again, at the end of your roll, for a few short frames you can be hit.
If you miss a tech, your options are to either stand up (press up on the stick), do an attack as you stand up (press A or B), or roll to one side or the other (press left or right on the stick). It should be noted that, I believe, if you miss a tech you can't do any of these options for a few short frames, so you can be hit on the ground. During any of your animations, you are invincible just like when you do a tech or a tech roll, and they have the same problem of being vulnerable at the end. If you do an attack when you stand up, you are invincible during the attack, and your attack does block stun, but are again vulnerable at the end. If you do a wakeup attack and someone blocks it, you are often easily block thrown (except if you are fighting against really slippery characters and your attack pushes them back a bit).
It is worth noting that teching, like parrying in 3s, is timing based. That is, you can't spam L and R to tech (just like you can't spam forward to parry), which also means you can miss techs because you had been pressing L to do something. For instance, if you have been doing lots of shffl moves, but you were attacked in the middle of it, you'll often have a hard time teching because the L-cancels you had been doing will make teching not work. Also, if you try to tech but are attacked before you land, you'll often have a hard time trying to "re-tech" because the game won't give it to you. After a while, you'll usually be able to see these things happen to your opponent, and be able to capitalize. You can usually smell when a tech will be missed because your opponent was probably pressing L beforehand, and then you can set up a powerful move (a Marth tipper, a Falcon knee, etc).
It's also worth noting that different characters have varying tech and techrolling animations which take different numbers of frames to execute. Characters with long techrolls have a disadvantage, because you can see the techroll happening and plan to attack during that vulnerable time (Mewtwo and G&W are examples).
Techrolling is usually the best option if you're going to tech and try to avoid more combos (say, techrolling Ganon's dair). Most of the good characters have fast enough techrolls to not be punished by that vulnerability.
I think that's all I have to say.
Oh, one more; most of these properties also apply to wakeup game off the ledge, except attacking off a ledge by pressing A is different whether you are higher than 100% or lower (the higher attack is slower and has less knockback). Many wakeup ledge attacks are really good, and it's often a good idea to do this (DK's, for example, attacks a big distance during his invincibility frames, but then comes back so you can't be hit as easily). You also have other options off the ledge, such as dropping down and jumping up to do an attack, but if you're hit before you land, you'll lose your second jump (you used it to come over the top), so be warned. Ledge game is a bit different than okizeme though, so there are other things to note about this that I won't make here.
THEZIMMEISTER
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Apr 10, 2007
- Messages
- 9
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xpiritflare
Smash Apprentice
bi-weekly [baiˈwiːkli] adjective, adverb
1. (happening etc) once every two weeks
bi-monthly [baimanθli] adjective, adverb
1. (happening) once in every two months
2. (happening) twice a month
If we're talking about primary meanings, it actually IS bi-weekly, but they can also mean that same thing.
FalseFalco
Smash Master
Oh Johnathan you clever fox
kithkin
Smash Champion
yeah BKB its every two weeks, if you look. you can follow a trail down your calendar if you have to.
but i suggest you experience smash some more before you start trying all this specifics.
edit: sad sad spam. i'm now taking bets on how long till hes banned.
but i suggest you experience smash some more before you start trying all this specifics.
edit: sad sad spam. i'm now taking bets on how long till hes banned.
Biweekly can also mean "twice per week" in a colloquial sense, which is why BKB was confused. In print magazines, printed "biweekly" means once every two weeks. Yay for colloquialism screwing up word definitions.
Just so people know, BKB has been involved in fighting games before most of you guys were even born, so I think he's probably the player most capable of picking up a game like Smash. He's capable of learning the engine and specifics a lot faster than you might think.
Just so people know, BKB has been involved in fighting games before most of you guys were even born, so I think he's probably the player most capable of picking up a game like Smash. He's capable of learning the engine and specifics a lot faster than you might think.
Randall00
Propitious Plumber
I'm fairly certain that you can't cancel your stun animation while tumbling flying through the air with an aerial, but you seem to be on the level.
Since the discussion is all about comparing fighting game engines as opposed to player habits, I should point out that you ARE always able to DI and directional influence in Smash is far more robust than any other fighting game I've encountered. "Smash DI"-ing on the hitlag frames of an attack will drastically affect your trajectory, but at the same time, teching during the hitlag of an attack will cause you to miss the tech.
This is especially true of characters with fast SHFFLs that hardly last more than a handful of frames themselves. Which is one of several reasons I advise L-cancelling with Z, unlike everyone else in the world.
FalseFalco
Smash Master
Yeah but then aerial -> grab is like impossible.
But you don't really have to worry about that as Luigi
Arcade fighters are also much crisper than smash in terms of frames and engine. Smash is a party game first, and then a fighter. This being said the engine is incomparable and would be easier to write a guide on the contrast of the two rather than write an FAQ on the similarities. In my opinion, Smash brothers at a competetive level (In terms of move exchanges and metagame) differs most from classic fighters due to the focus on the relationship between aerial attacks and shield grabbing.
On a side note, Smash's mobility is much different than most fighting games due to a physics engine which runs on things such as traction, character mass, and falling speed. This is essential to construct the creative 'combos' which really don't even fit the definition of a combo. Due to these added physics variables as well as things such as DI and percentage, the random element of smash is increased exponentially. Clanks, trading hits, powershielding, uneven stages, wavedashing all create an environment that is at first too random to even compare to a fighting game. Only after playing for hundreds or consecutive hours can you empirically determine the circumstances where these random elements occur, and learn to accept them as part of the engine. There is no single FAQ that can explain the situation you just saw where your friend smashed you at 200% and you lived only to accidentally upsmash him at 80% and kill him by flicking your cstick as you flinched. You need to figure these things out by playing in order to completely understand them.
I mean no disrespect to any member of these forums so be advised that this post is pure opinion backed by 8 years of playing experience.
But you don't really have to worry about that as Luigi
Arcade fighters are also much crisper than smash in terms of frames and engine. Smash is a party game first, and then a fighter. This being said the engine is incomparable and would be easier to write a guide on the contrast of the two rather than write an FAQ on the similarities. In my opinion, Smash brothers at a competetive level (In terms of move exchanges and metagame) differs most from classic fighters due to the focus on the relationship between aerial attacks and shield grabbing.
On a side note, Smash's mobility is much different than most fighting games due to a physics engine which runs on things such as traction, character mass, and falling speed. This is essential to construct the creative 'combos' which really don't even fit the definition of a combo. Due to these added physics variables as well as things such as DI and percentage, the random element of smash is increased exponentially. Clanks, trading hits, powershielding, uneven stages, wavedashing all create an environment that is at first too random to even compare to a fighting game. Only after playing for hundreds or consecutive hours can you empirically determine the circumstances where these random elements occur, and learn to accept them as part of the engine. There is no single FAQ that can explain the situation you just saw where your friend smashed you at 200% and you lived only to accidentally upsmash him at 80% and kill him by flicking your cstick as you flinched. You need to figure these things out by playing in order to completely understand them.
I mean no disrespect to any member of these forums so be advised that this post is pure opinion backed by 8 years of playing experience.
MARIOWNAGE
Smash Lord
l-cancel is short for LAG CANCEL, but yeah using Z is more accurate for timing. I was actually going to mod my L to be like a Z, but it's banned from tournaments [this was right before CT2 :3].
FalseFalco
Smash Master
And by mod you mean take the spring out 
I don't think L cancel is an acronym. In SSB it was referred to as a Z cancel because it was done with Z...
I don't think L cancel is an acronym. In SSB it was referred to as a Z cancel because it was done with Z...
Randall00
Propitious Plumber
SSB's a different game.
FalseFalco
Smash Master
UGH k fine you can have your acronym.
Infil: Come over this weekend and pwn me in smash plz. I'm beating my roomate now, so I need a good beatdown to remind me that i'm still garbage.
..and i wanna see you show shiro your denjin in 3S.
..and then he can pwn us both in XvSF.
umm.. is there such thing as a gamecube joystick? psx -> GC converter maybe?
..and i wanna see you show shiro your denjin in 3S.
..and then he can pwn us both in XvSF.
umm.. is there such thing as a gamecube joystick? psx -> GC converter maybe?
Heh, Shiro's supposed to be champ in 3S, isn't he? My Denjin is garbage against good players. All I've got is jump-in roundhouse, or cornered jump back roundhouse, and a little bit of parry skill. But I'll come to show some Smash tricks. Let me know on MSN the details.
I played XvSF in the arcades way back in the day. I thought I was wicked awesome because I could do supers. Yeah, I'm awesome.
There are definitely PS2 -> GC converters, yeah. I'm not sure how well you'll be able to play Smash with a stick (because jump is a button, and on a stick that's such an unintuitive thing), but maybe it's worth trying for you. On second thought, actually, the lag on the converter will probably be a dealbreaker. Smash requires such frame-specific timing.
All I've got is jump-in roundhouse, or cornered jump back roundhouse, and a little bit of parry skill. But I'll come to show some Smash tricks. Let me know on MSN the details.I played XvSF in the arcades way back in the day. I thought I was wicked awesome because I could do supers. Yeah, I'm awesome.
There are definitely PS2 -> GC converters, yeah. I'm not sure how well you'll be able to play Smash with a stick (because jump is a button, and on a stick that's such an unintuitive thing), but maybe it's worth trying for you. On second thought, actually, the lag on the converter will probably be a dealbreaker.
Smash requires such frame-specific timing.
Ermine
Smash Ace
Error Error!
I should have 9 Wins and 8 losses...
Not 7 Wins and 8 Losses =(
I'm not going below 50% X_X
I should have 9 Wins and 8 losses...
Not 7 Wins and 8 Losses =(
I'm not going below 50% X_X
xpiritflare
Smash Apprentice
Well, you currently are... so
Ermine
Smash Ace
But I'm Not!!!
Grrrr!
I should be like... uhh... 54% or something X_X
This makes me.... ANGRY! X_X
Well not really... but it should be fixed...
Grrrr!
I should be like... uhh... 54% or something X_X
This makes me.... ANGRY! X_X
Well not really... but it should be fixed...
MARIOWNAGE
Smash Lord
Pff, you guys go by your statistics, but it still doesn't make you a better player if you lost to someone with a smaller win percentages. I may as well have a high percentage, so you guys don't argue with me when it happens =P
I'm glad somebody else thinks that.
The notion that L somehow stands for "Lag" was clearly created by someone who didn't play alot of Smash 64.
In Smash 64, it's Z-Canceling.
You press the Z-Button with your left-index finger.
In SSB:M, it's L-Canceling.
You press the L-Button with your left-index finger.
Yes, there's other buttons you can use to L-Cancel, but we use "L" because the L button is most similar to the old Z button.
kithkin
Smash Champion
guy guys guys. percentages mean nothing kay kevin? (not sure if its changed at all) but my percent is above 50% which i usually wouldnt believe for anything.
and it still means nothing.
also, BKB, guilty gear is hilarious for air techs, teching nothing ftw (but really for the lose)
also for BKB/Infil, when you guys play, get me an update on BKB's progress, cause I would like to see how well he does
and it still means nothing.
also, BKB, guilty gear is hilarious for air techs, teching nothing ftw (but really for the lose)
also for BKB/Infil, when you guys play, get me an update on BKB's progress, cause I would like to see how well he does
mach5
Smash Journeyman
i found out l cancelling in SSB using link i noticed that if you pressed R with his sword plant he uses his sheild RIGHT away, and i was like woah. but i never got to playing really competitive with l cancels shffls and stuff like that till a while ago
Do you play Guilty Gear at the Cove? I'm not into GG much, but I do play potemkin when I'm at the cove. Now THAT's a crazy game. Rreminds me of smash in how the engine is crazy complicated.
Also, I'm none too sure about "techs". In smash lingo it means "techniques" right? In other fighting games it usually means an escape or recovery move.
..as for my progress. I only first played smash a couple weeks ago.. and 10 year old streetfighter habits are hard to break. A jump button!? Block button!?? Why am I punching in the wrong direction?! wtf! WHERE'S MY DRAGON PUNCH!?!?
I haven't used a controller for fighting games in years. I'm still trying to get short hops down reliably. lol.
But I'll try to bring my buds to the upcoming tourney, as they are getting into smash as well. Team Streetfighter gonna represent!