Conviction
Human Nature
So let me start off with I'm pissed that I found out the Wolf Boards already started this! It's not any of you guys fault because I've been lazy and haven't really worked on it since I started it 2 months ago haha.
This thread is about how you should be punishing characters attacks. I have a small amount of characters already done and tested offline and an incomplete ones, and please do not theorycraft in this thread because you just can't go off of frame data because you have to keep in mind proper spacing and shield pushback other variables in punishing. As this thread becomes complete and more organized we can discuss match-ups at a higher level and see if there are things we have been missing because we have been doing it wrong. New:Also as a new addition I've added on frametraps and mix-ups because those are just as important as punishing.
Uzimaki I'm counting on you to also get frame data to help out on this. Everyone is welcome to help out because a community that's what we are supposed to be doing.
Table of Contents
I. Punishments
II. Mix-ups
III. Frametraps
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I. Punishment
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Falco Punishment TKD's post
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Snake Punishment
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Kirby Punishment
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- Kirby's Dair on shield is a Free Usmash, our Fair trades with his Dair a better option is Bair if you are going for trading hits.
- Kirby's Fair on shield is OoS Usmashable. If he retreats his Fair DO NOT follow him. On a whiff due to Kirby's horrible aerial movement we can easily Dash Usmash him, Fair vs. Fair trades hits, better to trade with a Bair on his whiff, you can also Usmash him on a whiff.
- Kirby's SH Rising Bair is OoS Usmashable, SH Falling Bair is tricky if he doesn't do it perfectly near the ground you can OoS Usmash it, same goes for a sky falling Bair. Retreating Bair is safe though. On a whiff Bair is easily Dash Usmashable, also tradeable with our own Bair.
- Kirby's Uair on shield is an obvious punish and so is whiff
- Kirby's Fsmash on shield is an easy OoS Usmash, on whiff Dair him hand follow-up
- Kirby's Dsmash is another easy punish OoS Usmash, on whiff do the same as Fsmash
- Kirby's Usmash on shield is lol, OoS Usmash him, on whiff Bair, Jab, Pivot Boost Grab, Dash Usmash
- Kirby's Down Special (LOLOOLOLOLOLOL) grab out of shield, on whiff wait for him to turn back to normal and procceed to **** him.
- Kirby's Side Special IS unpunishable on shield, on whiff **** him.
- Kirby's Up Special is OoS Usmashable, interrupt him while he is falling with his Up B either Usmash or Uair, Up B can't really whiff but, PS the shockwave and punish accordingly.
- Kirby's Dtilt is OoS Usmashable, on whiff walk grab don't try anything else
- Kirby's Utilt is OoS Usmashable, on whiff Dash Usmash or Pivot Boost Grab
- Kirby's Ftilt is not OoS Usmashable BUT you can unshield Dash Usmash, on whiff Dash Usmash, walk grab, or Pivot Boost Grab
- Kirby's Jab is unpunishable on shield and on whiff DO NOT challenge it.
- Kirby's Grab is an obvious you can't shield it, on whiff you can dash Usmash or grab back yourself, now if you are in the air FF Nair and Dair also work.
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Sonic Punishment
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Nair- is OoS Usmashable and easy to shieldgrab, on a whiff you can Fair, Bair wait till he starts his fall and dair, Usmash, grab, Dsmash, or Fsmash (don't ever expect to see this move from a good sonic though)
Fair- is OoS Usmashable you can't shieldgrab it, on whiff you can beat it with Fair, Usmash, or Bair
Dair- is OoS Usmashable and also another one easy to shieldgrab, on whiff Usmash, grab, or Dair follow up him
Rising Bair- is NOT OoS Usmashable sonic is completely safe, on whiff strike back with Fair,Bair, or Usmash
Falling Bair- will cause lag which you can unshield and Dash Usmash, on whiff grab,Usmash
Don't even worry about Uair cause you won't even see a sonic try to Uair a grounded opponet if he does just **** him
Fsmash - IS NOT OoS Usmashable BUT you can Unshield and Dash Usmash, on whiff dash attack or Dash Usmash
Dsmash - is another that is not OoS Usmashable but you unshield and dash Usmash or Dash attack, on whiff the best reconmendation is SH Dair
Usmash - is OoS Usmashable and can be shieldgrabbed, on whiff punish with what you feel like (this is another move you shouldn't expect a Sonic to do against a grounded opponet)
Ftilt- can only be shieldgrabbed, on whiff dash attack or Dash Usmash all other moves are too slow
Dtilt - can be tricky you can't shieldgrab but if you predict it you can SH Dair over his Dtilt, on whiff Usmash, grab, or Dash attack
Utilt- is OoS Usmashable and can be shieldgrabbed, on whiff Usmash, grab, ftilt, reverse Utilt, don't aerial this move's whiff
DO NOT TRY AND SHIELD ANY OF HIS SPINDASHES! If you can see them coming you stop with basically and move i would go the safe way and use a falling aerial on it though, use Nair or Dair, jab and utilt does clank with it though
Lol don't try to punish the rise in Sonic's Spring Jump, read his fall and punish Uair will be best since it outproitizes all of his aerials
Don't even worry about Homing Attack don't expect a good one to use this either he does it's easy to dodge and punish, interupt with Fair
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Lucas Punishment
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- Lucas Fsmash is Unpunishable on shield. On whiff do what you like to him.
- Lucas Rising Dair IS punishable OoS Usmash, timing is key! Usmash his last hit of Dair. If he whiffs Rising Fair after him, our tipper Uair trades with his dair so not an option.
- Lucas Sh Bair is NOT punishable on shield. On a whiff your best option of punishment is Dash attack his aerial movement is hard to reach. Trying punish this move is not reconmended. Sit back and laser.
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Metakinght Punishment *From TKD*
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- Full hop fair (whiffed): Dash into MK and Usmash or dash into MK and short hop fair.
- Full hop nair: Very difficult (although possible) to punish because of its low cool-down (although impossible from block unless maybe when powerblocked). Counterable with a preemptive short-hop dair and it's possible to interrupt it if the opponent does actually commit to it) though.
- Full hop dair (whiffed): Full hop fair.
- Short hop fair (whiffed): Dash usmash, dash attack (dash usmash is better of course). DIFFICULT/UNSAFE/UNLIKELY
- Short hop nair (whiffed): Dash usmash, dash attack.
- Short hop dair (whiffed or blocked): Dash usmash, dash short-hop fair; unblock, dash usmash.
- Dash attack (blocked): Unblock, dsmash.
- Short hop fair (miss-spaced and blocked): Usmash from block. If not "inside" Fox and completely at Fox's backside, unblock and utilt.
- Landing fair (blocked): Usmash from block. Requires Meta Knight to not drift away (be in usmash range).
- Landing nair (blocked): Usmash from block. Requires Meta Knight to not drift away (be in usmash range).
- Landing dair (blocked): Usmash from block. Requires Meta Knight to not drift away (be in usmash range).
- Landing uair (anything): Shield-grab if blocking, anything if not (including moving away because its landing cool-down is very small). If this happens it's probably the opposing player's mistake.
- Dsmash (blocked or whiffed): Dash usmash or unblock, dash usmash. Punish dsmash every time you block it. Be aware that the second hit only has a 4 frame window for usmash to hit it, so it may be hard if it's tippered. Always possible when powerblocked.
- Shuttle loop (back facing Meta Knight): Full hop bair.
- Shuttle loop (facing Meta Knight): Full hop fair/nair.
If there's no time, walk under Meta Knight to usmash him. Dash under him uair works too. If there's really no time at all, block the glide attack. If it's miss-spaced horizontally (too close), shield-grab. If it's miss-spaced vertically (too high), usmash from block.
- Mach Tornado: Usmash or powerblock.
- Ftilt: Short-hop dair (short-hop over the attack. Must be predicted).
- Dtilt: Short-hop dair (short-hop over the attack. Must be predicted).
- Dsmash: Short-hop dair (short-hop over the attack. Must be predicted).
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Marth Punishment
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- Marth's Rising or Falling Fair is OoS Usmashable but can't be shieldgrabbed, on whiff SH Fair him, when landing Dash attack/Usmash his landing
- Marth's Nair can not be shieldgrabbed but in-between Nair hit 1 and Nair hit 2 you can OoS Usmash him, on whiff dash shieldgrab his landing or don't follow him at all
- Marth's Dtilt is not OoS Usmashable or shieldgrabbable but only on prediction you can Dair over his Dtilt, on whiff Marth is safe
- Marth's Dancing Blade hit 4 can be OoS Usmashed, on whiff Dash Usmash
- Marth's Ftilt is not shieldgrabbable or OoS Usmashable, on whiff basically do what you'd like to him
- Marth's Dolphin Slash gets ***** on whiff or block no need for advice here
- Marth's Jab also gets ***** like DS
- Marth's Bair can only be punished by unshielding Dash Usmashing/attacking, on whiff SH Fair or Dash attack/Usmash
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Game and Watch Punishment
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- GnW's Bair is OoS Usmashable in-between hits and is not shieldgrabbable, on whiff Dash Usmash
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Toon Link Punishment
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- Rising Nair is not shieldgrabbable but OoS Usmashable, if retreated unshield and dash Usmash/attack, on whiff SH Fair, Usmash/Dash Usmash, Dash attack
- Rising Bair is unpunishable on whiff dash Usmash/attack, however falling bair is punishable, unshield Dash attack, Usmash
- Uair is something you will not encounter while grounded
- Dair is something you will not ecounter while grounded
- Dtilt is unpunishable on whiff and block but if predicted can be Dair/Nair/Bair'd over
- Ftilt on block is punishable unshield dash Usmash/attack, on whiff the punishments are the same
- All jabs are punishable, OoS Usmash, OoS Nair, OoS Dair on Jab 3
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Fox Mix-ups and Frame Traps Key
*Stuffed - An aerial that goes through until landing
*Rising - An aerial performed while rising in the jump
*Falling - An aerial performed while falling in the jump
*Cross-up - landing behind opponent
*JJC - Jab Jab Cancel
*AD - Airdodge
*RAR - Reverse Aerial Rush
*AC- Auto Cancel
*SH - Short Hop
*FH - Full Jump
*Nair - Neutral Air
*Fair - Foward Air
*Bair - Back Air
*Dair - Down Air
Note to Readers on Mix-ups: Mix-ups are meant to catch and punish players habits or force a certain reaction out of them to punish, they are not 100% foolproof.
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II. Mix-ups
- Stuffed SH Nair Cross-up>Utilt on shielded opponent (works best if they grab because of hit confirm on shield from Nair)
- Cross-up AC Bair (SH or FH depends on their habits) completely safe even if shielded
- Cross-up RAR SH Nair
- Shading
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III. Frametraps
-FH Rising Uair to Falling Uair on ADing opponents, works best at a Fox head above FH height
- AC FH Falling Dair, traps ADing opponents can lead to kills
- AC Bair, -2 frame disadv. on shield enough time to utilt, jab, run away
- JJC>Shine,JJC,grab
- Stuffed SH Nair on ADing opponents
- Stuffed SH Dair on ADing opponents
- Stuffed SH Nair on spotdodges
- Stuffed SH Dair on spotdodges
So we need to get to work!
This thread is about how you should be punishing characters attacks. I have a small amount of characters already done and tested offline and an incomplete ones, and please do not theorycraft in this thread because you just can't go off of frame data because you have to keep in mind proper spacing and shield pushback other variables in punishing. As this thread becomes complete and more organized we can discuss match-ups at a higher level and see if there are things we have been missing because we have been doing it wrong. New:Also as a new addition I've added on frametraps and mix-ups because those are just as important as punishing.
Uzimaki I'm counting on you to also get frame data to help out on this. Everyone is welcome to help out because a community that's what we are supposed to be doing.
Table of Contents
I. Punishments
II. Mix-ups
III. Frametraps
_________________________________________________________________________
I. Punishment
_________________________________________________________________________
Falco Punishment TKD's post
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- vs jab (blocked)
Case A - predict a single jab: usmash from block immediately after blocking jab 1.
Case B - predict the 2nd jab: As soon as the 2nd jab touches your shield, usmash from block ASAP. Neither Falco's jab cancel nor his rapid jabs have time to come out.
Note: I wouldn't go for these reads while in chaingrab % (< 28%).
- vs usmash/fsmash/dsmash (whiffed/blocked): (unblock,) dash usmash. Lots of cool-down.
Note: Seems difficult vs sour-spot fsmash. Either sourspot's hitbox comes out later, or it's just more difficult to notice. I think I've had trouble with it, may just be me, or maybe there's never been a problem and my memory fails me.
- vs landing dair/bair: usmash from block. Powerblock preferable (and makes it more likely for the spacing to work out. If the spacing's right, powerblock confirms your usmash because Fox won't be pushed back.
- vs landing whiffed dair/bair: dash usmash to hit during Falco's landing cool-down.
- vs dash attack: usmash from block, or unblock+turn around+usmash. Depends on whether he'll go through Fox or not, and timing. If you wrongly usmash from block while Falco goes through you, usmash will sour hit.
Note: it's not a bad idea to watch out for DACUS.
- vs phantasm: face away from Falco, predict the timing, usmash.
Notes: deadly when Falco, at KO %, only has the option to phantasm onto either the stage or the ledge, and you're near the ledge. This is because, given proper execution, there's a 50/50 chance of him losing a stock: either by an usmash or a ledgehog. In case someone's wondering about phantasm cancel Lv.1, that dies to ledgehog too.
If Fox isn't near the ledge, Falco can either go for the ledge or Lv.1or2 cancel so he reaches the stage but not Fox.
If Falco's not at KO %, there are easier moves to land, like utilt while facing Falco (because it comes out behind Fox), and dash attack (into Falco if far away, away from Falco if closer).
This hitting away from Falco thing is because the first 3rd of phantasm's trajectory is invincible.
If you ever pin Falco out of his phantasm into the ground with a dair, jab him once to activate his landing pentalty, then hit him with a smash of your choice.
- PREDICTION. vs SHDL from too close: dash usmash. This is because he's stuck in the air during this. You can predict as soon as he hops, but it's always a possibility for him to air-dodge instead of SHDLing.
Snake Punishment
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- vs utilt: Block, unblock, dash usmash.
- vs utilt (whiff): You can bait this move by standing/moving around just outside of its range. Dash usmash.
- vs ftilt (hit 2): block, unblock, dash usmash.
- vs ftilt (hit 1): powerblock, usmash from block.
Note: I've tried baiting this whiff, which is possible I guess, but then I just get hit by the 2nd hit...which you can block, unblock, usmash against. Interesting... - vs dtilt (whiff): dash usmash.
Note: if you block this and are close enough you can usmash from block, however uncommon this scenario may end up being. - vs dash attack: Predict it and turn your back vs Snake and block. Usmash from block.
Kirby Punishment
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- Kirby's Dair on shield is a Free Usmash, our Fair trades with his Dair a better option is Bair if you are going for trading hits.
- Kirby's Fair on shield is OoS Usmashable. If he retreats his Fair DO NOT follow him. On a whiff due to Kirby's horrible aerial movement we can easily Dash Usmash him, Fair vs. Fair trades hits, better to trade with a Bair on his whiff, you can also Usmash him on a whiff.
- Kirby's SH Rising Bair is OoS Usmashable, SH Falling Bair is tricky if he doesn't do it perfectly near the ground you can OoS Usmash it, same goes for a sky falling Bair. Retreating Bair is safe though. On a whiff Bair is easily Dash Usmashable, also tradeable with our own Bair.
- Kirby's Uair on shield is an obvious punish and so is whiff
- Kirby's Fsmash on shield is an easy OoS Usmash, on whiff Dair him hand follow-up
- Kirby's Dsmash is another easy punish OoS Usmash, on whiff do the same as Fsmash
- Kirby's Usmash on shield is lol, OoS Usmash him, on whiff Bair, Jab, Pivot Boost Grab, Dash Usmash
- Kirby's Down Special (LOLOOLOLOLOLOL) grab out of shield, on whiff wait for him to turn back to normal and procceed to **** him.
- Kirby's Side Special IS unpunishable on shield, on whiff **** him.
- Kirby's Up Special is OoS Usmashable, interrupt him while he is falling with his Up B either Usmash or Uair, Up B can't really whiff but, PS the shockwave and punish accordingly.
- Kirby's Dtilt is OoS Usmashable, on whiff walk grab don't try anything else
- Kirby's Utilt is OoS Usmashable, on whiff Dash Usmash or Pivot Boost Grab
- Kirby's Ftilt is not OoS Usmashable BUT you can unshield Dash Usmash, on whiff Dash Usmash, walk grab, or Pivot Boost Grab
- Kirby's Jab is unpunishable on shield and on whiff DO NOT challenge it.
- Kirby's Grab is an obvious you can't shield it, on whiff you can dash Usmash or grab back yourself, now if you are in the air FF Nair and Dair also work.
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Sonic Punishment
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Nair- is OoS Usmashable and easy to shieldgrab, on a whiff you can Fair, Bair wait till he starts his fall and dair, Usmash, grab, Dsmash, or Fsmash (don't ever expect to see this move from a good sonic though)
Fair- is OoS Usmashable you can't shieldgrab it, on whiff you can beat it with Fair, Usmash, or Bair
Dair- is OoS Usmashable and also another one easy to shieldgrab, on whiff Usmash, grab, or Dair follow up him
Rising Bair- is NOT OoS Usmashable sonic is completely safe, on whiff strike back with Fair,Bair, or Usmash
Falling Bair- will cause lag which you can unshield and Dash Usmash, on whiff grab,Usmash
Don't even worry about Uair cause you won't even see a sonic try to Uair a grounded opponet if he does just **** him
Fsmash - IS NOT OoS Usmashable BUT you can Unshield and Dash Usmash, on whiff dash attack or Dash Usmash
Dsmash - is another that is not OoS Usmashable but you unshield and dash Usmash or Dash attack, on whiff the best reconmendation is SH Dair
Usmash - is OoS Usmashable and can be shieldgrabbed, on whiff punish with what you feel like (this is another move you shouldn't expect a Sonic to do against a grounded opponet)
Ftilt- can only be shieldgrabbed, on whiff dash attack or Dash Usmash all other moves are too slow
Dtilt - can be tricky you can't shieldgrab but if you predict it you can SH Dair over his Dtilt, on whiff Usmash, grab, or Dash attack
Utilt- is OoS Usmashable and can be shieldgrabbed, on whiff Usmash, grab, ftilt, reverse Utilt, don't aerial this move's whiff
DO NOT TRY AND SHIELD ANY OF HIS SPINDASHES! If you can see them coming you stop with basically and move i would go the safe way and use a falling aerial on it though, use Nair or Dair, jab and utilt does clank with it though
Lol don't try to punish the rise in Sonic's Spring Jump, read his fall and punish Uair will be best since it outproitizes all of his aerials
Don't even worry about Homing Attack don't expect a good one to use this either he does it's easy to dodge and punish, interupt with Fair
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Lucas Punishment
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- Lucas Fsmash is Unpunishable on shield. On whiff do what you like to him.
- Lucas Rising Dair IS punishable OoS Usmash, timing is key! Usmash his last hit of Dair. If he whiffs Rising Fair after him, our tipper Uair trades with his dair so not an option.
- Lucas Sh Bair is NOT punishable on shield. On a whiff your best option of punishment is Dash attack his aerial movement is hard to reach. Trying punish this move is not reconmended. Sit back and laser.
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Metakinght Punishment *From TKD*
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- Full hop fair (whiffed): Dash into MK and Usmash or dash into MK and short hop fair.
- Full hop nair: Very difficult (although possible) to punish because of its low cool-down (although impossible from block unless maybe when powerblocked). Counterable with a preemptive short-hop dair and it's possible to interrupt it if the opponent does actually commit to it) though.
- Full hop dair (whiffed): Full hop fair.
- Short hop fair (whiffed): Dash usmash, dash attack (dash usmash is better of course). DIFFICULT/UNSAFE/UNLIKELY
- Short hop nair (whiffed): Dash usmash, dash attack.
- Short hop dair (whiffed or blocked): Dash usmash, dash short-hop fair; unblock, dash usmash.
- Dash attack (blocked): Unblock, dsmash.
- Short hop fair (miss-spaced and blocked): Usmash from block. If not "inside" Fox and completely at Fox's backside, unblock and utilt.
- Landing fair (blocked): Usmash from block. Requires Meta Knight to not drift away (be in usmash range).
- Landing nair (blocked): Usmash from block. Requires Meta Knight to not drift away (be in usmash range).
- Landing dair (blocked): Usmash from block. Requires Meta Knight to not drift away (be in usmash range).
- Landing uair (anything): Shield-grab if blocking, anything if not (including moving away because its landing cool-down is very small). If this happens it's probably the opposing player's mistake.
- Dsmash (blocked or whiffed): Dash usmash or unblock, dash usmash. Punish dsmash every time you block it. Be aware that the second hit only has a 4 frame window for usmash to hit it, so it may be hard if it's tippered. Always possible when powerblocked.
- Shuttle loop (back facing Meta Knight): Full hop bair.
- Shuttle loop (facing Meta Knight): Full hop fair/nair.
If there's no time, walk under Meta Knight to usmash him. Dash under him uair works too. If there's really no time at all, block the glide attack. If it's miss-spaced horizontally (too close), shield-grab. If it's miss-spaced vertically (too high), usmash from block.
- Mach Tornado: Usmash or powerblock.
- Ftilt: Short-hop dair (short-hop over the attack. Must be predicted).
- Dtilt: Short-hop dair (short-hop over the attack. Must be predicted).
- Dsmash: Short-hop dair (short-hop over the attack. Must be predicted).
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Marth Punishment
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- Marth's Rising or Falling Fair is OoS Usmashable but can't be shieldgrabbed, on whiff SH Fair him, when landing Dash attack/Usmash his landing
- Marth's Nair can not be shieldgrabbed but in-between Nair hit 1 and Nair hit 2 you can OoS Usmash him, on whiff dash shieldgrab his landing or don't follow him at all
- Marth's Dtilt is not OoS Usmashable or shieldgrabbable but only on prediction you can Dair over his Dtilt, on whiff Marth is safe
- Marth's Dancing Blade hit 4 can be OoS Usmashed, on whiff Dash Usmash
- Marth's Ftilt is not shieldgrabbable or OoS Usmashable, on whiff basically do what you'd like to him
- Marth's Dolphin Slash gets ***** on whiff or block no need for advice here
- Marth's Jab also gets ***** like DS
- Marth's Bair can only be punished by unshielding Dash Usmashing/attacking, on whiff SH Fair or Dash attack/Usmash
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Game and Watch Punishment
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- GnW's Bair is OoS Usmashable in-between hits and is not shieldgrabbable, on whiff Dash Usmash
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Toon Link Punishment
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- Rising Nair is not shieldgrabbable but OoS Usmashable, if retreated unshield and dash Usmash/attack, on whiff SH Fair, Usmash/Dash Usmash, Dash attack
- Rising Bair is unpunishable on whiff dash Usmash/attack, however falling bair is punishable, unshield Dash attack, Usmash
- Uair is something you will not encounter while grounded
- Dair is something you will not ecounter while grounded
- Dtilt is unpunishable on whiff and block but if predicted can be Dair/Nair/Bair'd over
- Ftilt on block is punishable unshield dash Usmash/attack, on whiff the punishments are the same
- All jabs are punishable, OoS Usmash, OoS Nair, OoS Dair on Jab 3
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Fox Mix-ups and Frame Traps Key
*Stuffed - An aerial that goes through until landing
*Rising - An aerial performed while rising in the jump
*Falling - An aerial performed while falling in the jump
*Cross-up - landing behind opponent
*JJC - Jab Jab Cancel
*AD - Airdodge
*RAR - Reverse Aerial Rush
*AC- Auto Cancel
*SH - Short Hop
*FH - Full Jump
*Nair - Neutral Air
*Fair - Foward Air
*Bair - Back Air
*Dair - Down Air
Note to Readers on Mix-ups: Mix-ups are meant to catch and punish players habits or force a certain reaction out of them to punish, they are not 100% foolproof.
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II. Mix-ups
- Stuffed SH Nair Cross-up>Utilt on shielded opponent (works best if they grab because of hit confirm on shield from Nair)
- Cross-up AC Bair (SH or FH depends on their habits) completely safe even if shielded
- Cross-up RAR SH Nair
- Shading
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III. Frametraps
-FH Rising Uair to Falling Uair on ADing opponents, works best at a Fox head above FH height
- AC FH Falling Dair, traps ADing opponents can lead to kills
- AC Bair, -2 frame disadv. on shield enough time to utilt, jab, run away
- JJC>Shine,JJC,grab
- Stuffed SH Nair on ADing opponents
- Stuffed SH Dair on ADing opponents
- Stuffed SH Nair on spotdodges
- Stuffed SH Dair on spotdodges
So we need to get to work!