Project M Recommended Ruleset

[nimigoha]

Nebraska stagelist is actually OP in terms of balance lol.

The only imbalance I see with it is having all small stages have small HBZ but that's really just the only option unless we drastically move things around and swap a small stage for Skyworld. Then we'd need to take away a stage with large HBZ and replace it with something near-identical in all other aspects but with small HBZ.

It's pretty good though. Does anyone have a vanilla pack with only the Nebraska stagelist as a change, and BC icons and stages swapped?

 

[Darth Shard]

Does anyone have a vanilla pack with only the Nebraska stagelist as a change, and BC icons and stages swapped?

I have the files you desire. I'd be happy to upload such a build to dropbox when I get home from work.

 

[4tlas]

I am going to play devil's advocate as to why it's hard to quickly adopt a single stagelist. If you adopt the Nebraska stagelist, you're limiting yourself to 10 stages. However, if you play your custom stagelist that can have up to 15 stages with 3 bans, you gain exposure to way more stages. Thus, when you go to another region's major, you won't feel uncomfortable because the tournament is running stages you've never played on. At worst case, you're over-prepared. Best case, you've got an advantage.

This is one reason why we run a rotating stagelist. The other reason is variety. And I think it keeps the complaining in check somewhat, since everybody knows we'll get a new stagelist at some point, and at least its not the old stagelist. Grass is always greener.

I sincerely doubt we'd adopt a universal stagelist until it was truly universal.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

As far as the marginal difference goes for the GHZ and FoD switch, I think the difference is significant. Out of the four starter stages, we have four open stages, and one closed (BF). I think this presents a problem where stage size isn't the main concern with stage striking.

Then again, FoD is janky as.

Another option is switching PS2 for DP... although I'm not sure how popular that'd be. Plus, it'd throw off the walled-to-non-walled stage ratio.

But we need to ask ourselves if the layout of a stage is more important than it having walls or not.

 

[xquqx]

Another option is switching PS2 for DP... although I'm not sure how popular that'd be. Plus, it'd throw off the walled-to-non-walled stage ratio.

If your stage list doesn't include ps2, there's literally no chance anyone will accept it.

 

[nimigoha]

I think that GHZ is small enough that being "open" isn't as big a deal and that it's fine as a starter. BF is pretty closed off and Bowser's Castle has nice platform coverage to be able to waveland around.

 

[DMG]

What exactly is the concern about "open"? Like I get open + big will generally be a concern, but open + medium/smallish doesn't seem very problematic.

 

[4tlas]

What exactly is the concern about "open"? Like I get open + big will generally be a concern, but open + medium/smallish doesn't seem very problematic.

Sure, but those starters are open + small, open + medium, and open + large. Its just open always.

 

[Kulprit]

Sure, but those starters are open + small, open + medium, and open + large. Its just open always.

- There's no real solution to all the medium stages being open, as those are our best options for medium neutrals.
-Making PS2 a counterpick isn't really an option either, and there's no real good alternative for a large starter that doesn't skew the list.
- The only replacement for GHZ as a starter to change the openness would be FoD, but only changing 1 thing doesn't impact the stagelist enough to merit the change. Besides, GHZ is basically a staple neutral at this point in time.

There are issues with there being "openness", but there's no real solution to it, as we only have so many options to work with for starters. Besides, I'm more worried about the stage size and blastzones than the openness of a stage.

 

[Cox Box]

So what is the official name for the tournament usable Bowser's Castle? I'm updating the HASL ruleset at the moment, and I'd like to be as clear as possible about what stage we mean.

 

[_Chrome]

I would just call it Bowser's Castle, or neutral Bowser's Castle. The dev team was gonna switch the original and alternate for the stage in the next patch anyways. Bowser's other Castle or Alternate Bowser's Castle work too.

 

[JesteRace]

Bowser's Castle and PS2 really aren't THAT open, anyway. Tell me those platforms don't make a considerable difference in comparison to the extreme of FD.

 

[Cox Box]

Yeah, our build is going to switch them for ease of use. I don't want to deal with the confusion and shrill cries of "why does this stage have hazards?".

 

[nimigoha]

I like "ABC" for "Alternate Bowser's Castle" but it's kinda topsy turvy if you swap in to not be an alt stage anymore haha.

 

[4tlas]

Bowser's Castle and PS2 really aren't THAT open, anyway. Tell me those platforms don't make a considerable difference in comparison to the extreme of FD.

Bowsers platforms are very high. They essentially do nothing except for extend vertical combos and enable platform camping. They don't block projectiles or interrupt combos.

 

[JesteRace]

Bowsers platforms are very high. They essentially do nothing except for extend vertical combos and enable platform camping. They don't block projectiles or interrupt combos.

If there are platforms and they are easy to reach from the ground, they don't do nothing. Platforms have never blocked projectiles, so I'm not sure what you're talking about. But what platforms do is give players with good combo DI ways to get out of otherwise guaranteed followups by DI'ing to the platforms and give characters more movement options for closing in on the opponent or mixups, which is especially important for characters with lackluster mobility. Both of these things are still very possible on BC. The platforms aren't "very high". They're higher than BF, but not by as much as you're making it seem. Enough to make a difference, but that's why I separated platform layouts in 3 categories. It's a little more nuanced than just "open" and "cramped". BC, PS2, and FoD are somewhere in between.

 

[4tlas]

If there are platforms and they are easy to reach from the ground, they don't do nothing. Platforms have never blocked projectiles, so I'm not sure what you're talking about. But what platforms do is give players with good combo DI ways to get out of otherwise guaranteed followups by DI'ing to the platforms and give characters more movement options for closing in on the opponent or mixups, which is especially important for characters with lackluster mobility. Both of these things are still very possible on BC. The platforms aren't "very high". They're higher than BF, but not by as much as you're making it seem. Enough to make a difference, but that's why I separated platform layouts in 3 categories. It's a little more nuanced than just "open" and "cramped". BC, PS2, and FoD are somewhere in between.

The platforms are high enough that there is a pause in the action when you go to them or come down from them. There's enough time for your opponent to adjust. Lower platforms block diagonal projectiles that get used from the air, but Bowser's are too high to do that. They are also too high to interrupt low percent combos, but as I said they extend vertical combos by letting jugglers catch up to those who are being juggled.

I'm probably imagining them to be higher than they are, though.

 

[Kulprit]

So what is the official name for the tournament usable Bowser's Castle? I'm updating the HASL ruleset at the moment, and I'd like to be as clear as possible about what stage we mean.

We refer to Bowser's in our ruleset as: Bowser's Castle (Alt.), meaning that the alternate version of Bowser's Castle is the version of the stage we want for tournament use.

 

[Kneato]

I've always called it Bowser's Other Castle or BoC.

I brought up character first in the FB group. It's like having flashbacks to a war. I wish these TOs would just read through this thread and realize all their arguments have been covered numerous times.

 

[4tlas]

I've always called it Bowser's Other Castle or BoC.

I brought up character first in the FB group. It's like having flashbacks to a war. I wish these TOs would just read through this thread and realize all their arguments have been covered numerous times.

It was YOUUUUUUUUUUU

 

[Kneato]

It was YOUUUUUUUUUUU

Tee hee u got me

 

[4tlas]

Tee hee u got me

I've been reading all your posts as the mask salesman. Now you'll read all my posts as Geodude lol

 

[Kneato]

I've been reading all your posts as the mask salesman. Now you'll read all my posts as Geodude lol

That was YOUUUUU

Also:

Someone please send help.

 

[JesteRace]

Maybe by the time we have a universal stagelist, I'll have formed a concrete opinion on character vs. stage first. As it stands right now, Idgaf.

I'm Robot Santa, btw.

 

[Darth Shard]

For everyone who was wanting a link to a build with this stagelist, tah-dah! Let me know if there are any issues wth the files but I've tested it and they should work!

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/nvt1qvr9sjnekhe/AACjPrTunzWM4b-pD_0YL6U-a?dl=0

Also have to plug my optional music pack for the 9 legal stages. Check it out if you want.

 

[Kulprit]

For everyone who was wanting a link to a build with this stagelist, tah-dah! Let me know if there are any issues wth the files but I've tested it and they should work!

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/nvt1qvr9sjnekhe/AACjPrTunzWM4b-pD_0YL6U-a?dl=0

Also have to plug my optional music pack for the 9 legal stages. Check it out if you want.

The creator of our build is currently dealing with finals, but hopefully he'll have it done by the end of the week. I'll post here once it is complete.

 

[nimigoha]

For everyone who was wanting a link to a build with this stagelist, tah-dah! Let me know if there are any issues wth the files but I've tested it and they should work!

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/nvt1qvr9sjnekhe/AACjPrTunzWM4b-pD_0YL6U-a?dl=0

Also have to plug my optional music pack for the 9 legal stages. Check it out if you want.

Booted it up and it worked super well.

One gripe is greying out and BANNED-ing all the banned stages. I think it's enough to shift everything else to the second screen, kinda makes things a little ugly if you want to play around on casual stages tbh.

 

[Darth Shard]

One gripe is greying out and BANNED-ing all the banned stages. I think it's enough to shift everything else to the second screen, kinda makes things a little ugly if you want to play around on casual stages tbh.

It would be easy enough to edit the selmap file if that's what people would prefer

 

[Kulprit]

It would be easy enough to edit the selmap file if that's what people would prefer

I don't personally care about the greying out of banned stages because as a tournament organizer, all I care about is the clarity of the stagelist during the bracket. If people are bothered with the greying of banned stages, then they can deal with it. It shouldn't discourage them from playing on those stages outside of tournament if that's what they truly want to do.

 

[nimigoha]

It's just for more of an "all encompassing" pack.

No reason to have both a clear all-legal screen and greying out the entirety of the second screen.

I also think that we don't need the "Starter" or "Counterpick" words across the images, the Green/Yellow outline seems enough.

But I'm really just being nitpicky at this point. Basically I think all that needs to be done is shifting everything but Nebraska to page 2, swapping Bowser's around, and outlining Starters green and CPs yellow.

Then the ban infographic could have green text saying "1 2 2 1" and yellow text saying "2 ban" as well as whatever DSR rule is decided upon.

I'm now sad because I'm getting excited about the details of a ruleset that's still going to take way more convincing than it should to be accepted.

 

[4tlas]

I agree it will take way more than it should. And I don't even like the list!

What it should take is convincing each TO of a big scene with logic until the rest follow suit. This is where I am resisting.

What it will actually take is convincing each and every player to stop arguing about it like they do with the other games. This is where I am helping, and I'm going insane because I don't even like this list!

 

[JesteRace]

I'm now sad because I'm getting excited about the details of a ruleset that's still going to take way more convincing than it should to be accepted.

Well, the best thing to do is keep defending the stage list here, advocate for it in your scene, and then get your scene's TO into the Facebook discussion if they aren't already.

 

[nimigoha]

I'm like more or less my scene's TO lol. We've only had 1 event but I'll be in charge of PM for the next one. So I'll be using Nebraska.

My scene's just so small it barely matters.

 

[JesteRace]

Aren't you in the same scene as HoT and Blea Gelo? Or am I confusing you with someone else?

 

[nimigoha]

Nah haha I'm in London Ontario. This is the GF of the tourney if you want to see the kind of level we're at. The Wario is from Hamilton though. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHKADck5oOs&spfreload=10&ab_channel=AffinityPlay I'm on commentary as well.

 

[Kneato]

Someone mentioned this on the TO group:

(Paraphrasing) "This group will get a ton more done than the smashboards ruleset thread."

I realized, unfortunately, he's probably right. The FB group ultimately will be the driving force in enacting ruleset changes across NA tournaments. The only problem is, FB is an absolutely terrible forum for organized discussion/debate. As the group already proved, having an orderly discussion about a rule's up and downsides seems nearly impossible. While over here, it may take a while, but real progress is made on debating rule merits. People's opinions can change here. They can't on Facebook.

I think that makes it super important that everyone here who is in the group voice their opinions there. It would be much more convenient if these TO's actually took the time and effort to give a this thread a read but I doubt that will happen. So we need to take the discussion to them.

 

[Kneato]

Nah haha I'm in London Ontario. This is the GF of the tourney if you want to see the kind of level we're at. The Wario is from Hamilton though. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHKADck5oOs&spfreload=10&ab_channel=AffinityPlay I'm on commentary as well.

I thought Lawyer was from the GTA too. Doesn't he partner with Windfish? That guy is my buddy from McMaster.

 

[nimigoha]

I thought Lawyer was from the GTA too. Doesn't he partner with Windfish? That guy is my buddy from McMaster.

Yep he played a lot of GTA PM over the summer but now that we're back in school he hasn't been around there.

Good luck convincing people on the Internet to change their minds.

 

[Darth Shard]

I also think that we don't need the "Starter" or "Counterpick" words across the images, the Green/Yellow outline seems enough.

Your scene must be way smarter than mine. Here you have to hold everyone's hand just to get them to remember the ruleset.

 

[Kulprit]

Your scene must be way smarter than mine. Here you have to hold everyone's hand just to get them to remember the ruleset.

So true. I even get asked about the ruleset of players who regularly make it to Loser's Quarters/Semis lol. We definitely need the wording over the stage preview image for each legal stage.