Project M Social Thread Gold

[Xebenkeck]

So with 128 entrants they'll probably do 32 pools of 4, or 16 pools of 8 with top 2 in each going to bracket I assume.

Lets say they increase to cap to 192.(+64) I don't really think It changes much in terms of how the tourny would be run just likely a second round of pools instead of just 1.

Signed for your guys sake, I can't go for multiple reasons, but represent P:M.

 

[Strong Badam]

Compared to 256, 192 doesn't save much time tbh. Just more byes.

 

[The_Altrox]

Question about PM stages and tournament legality:

Are stages like Frigate and Delfino no longer counterpicks? Whenever I watch PM play, those stages aren't even on the first page. If they aren't tourney legal in a counterpick sense, that kind of saddens me, since those sorts of stages were relatively predictable, though not so tame enough to be starters. It'd be a shame to see them forgotten.

 

[GHNeko]

Frigate is usually banned because the stage flipping heavily disupts the flow of the match despite being predictable. Pretty much, everyone has to drop everything or risk getting caught under the stage or something. The predictability doesn't alleviate this. (Same reason why PS1 is pretty much on page 2 now and rarely legal)

Deflino does the same thing to a lesser degree, but the biggest issues with the stage are the walk offs and the water mechanics which are horribly implemented in Brawl/P:M.

I like Frigate, but i can easily see why it's banned frequently.

 

[The_Altrox]

PS1 too? I noticed it was on page 2, but I figured now that the windmill is gone...
idk, I feel like these stages have a lot less (tolerable) spice... at least Halberd is still on page 1, but I bet that gets banned too. and is castle siege still on with the lack of the second floor?

 

[Mr.Random]

Hola mi nombre es Mr.Random. How are you?

 

[MonkUnit]

The_Altrox, yes, Castle Siege still retains the removal of the 2nd formation.

 

[| Kailex |]

Everyone likes frigate's second form, change the stage to stay like that forever.

 

[The_Altrox]

The_Altrox, yes, Castle Siege still retains the removal of the 2nd formation.

I know it did, but is it still a frequent counterpick?

Everyone likes frigate's second form, change the stage to stay like that forever.

As much as I'd rather it be a counterpick in it's true form, I can see this being a thing.
I think what also hurts Frigate is that the first form doesn't favor tether recovery on the right side. It would be awesome if they could do that, but whatevs. I just miss my unorthodox counterpicks... at least I still have Halberd, though I'm gonna miss Siege's second floor (and not for walk off reasons, mind you.)

 

[DMG]

I hate Frigate's second form. Not because it's disruptive or anything, but that middle portion is so strong for people to fight from. Like playing Falcon on that part might as well be unplayable.

Edit: Delfino is OK, it would be a much better stage if you modified some of the transformations though. Or if the stage only went to a few places. Some of them lead to really bad "options" for approaching, not as bad as the PS1 burning tree or rock wall, but still bad.

PS1 would be great if you take off a few transformations. I dunno how far we are on that/if we can do that, but it would be relatively easy to tweak some of these stages to be competitive if the game allows us to fiddle with it.

 

[Plum]

Ha I remember like a year and a half back I was posting about how we shouldn't use PS1 anymore because of how half of the transformations actively deter people from playing the match. With more viable stages available we didn't need PS1 anymore.
Everybody in whatever thread that was got super uppity about it with the "because Melee" responses.

 

[The_Altrox]

Ha I remember like a year and a half back I was posting about how we shouldn't use PS1 anymore because of how half of the transformations actively deter people from playing the match. With more viable stages available we didn't need PS1 anymore.
Everybody in whatever thread that was got super uppity about it with the "because Melee" responses.

"Because Melee" is admittedly a poor excuse. Personally, I liked it because it forces mild changes of play that an adaptable player can utilize. However, I would say that it should be a counterpick for those reasons, and since the stage can encourage hiding (that tree, man)

 

[KayB]

Is there such thing as having too many viable stages?

 

[Sauce Boss]

Besides the accents?

Okay. Maybe not that.

Especially not that.

Accents are the best part
AYE YUGI

 

[The_Altrox]

Is there such thing as having too many viable stages?

I would say no, but I feel like more can be done and included with counterpicks.

 

[trash?]

skyloft is still the best counterpick stage on the planet

it's SO FUN like it doesn't seem like the layout should mean much but it creates some fun shenanigans because depending on MU to MU there's going to be a dominating part of the stage you want to be on, but which part and why entirely depends from character to character

make more skylofts please. okay thank you

 

[Papa+Stone]

Give skyloft the skyward sword music back

 

[GunBlaze]

Give skyloft the skyward sword music back

And have Nintendo take legal action against them? No, thanks. That said, I can supply you with it FOR PERSONAL USE.

 

[Papa+Stone]

Wait is that really why it was taken out

 

[GHNeko]

PS1 too? I noticed it was on page 2, but I figured now that the windmill is gone...
idk, I feel like these stages have a lot less (tolerable) spice... at least Halberd is still on page 1, but I bet that gets banned too. and is castle siege still on with the lack of the second floor?

Halberd is a cp, but it is banned on a regular basis. Why? Idk. Probably because slopes, ceiling, and hazards. Its a shame tho.

Everyone likes frigate's second form, change the stage to stay like that forever.

no pls. I like frigate as is.

Is there such thing as having too many viable stages?

Yes. We kinda have that issue now.

Sent from my SGH-T699 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Pitzer]

Frigate is fine but the stage flipping thing really bugs me, however still a fun stage to play on. Also, pls ban Yoshi's Story vs me or else, Kappa.

 

[Plum]

There can be too many viable stages when said stages don't offer significant enough differences between how they play.
Matchups can vary pretty significantly depending on the stage. Take Marth vs spacies. Obviously it can be pretty lopsided on Final Destination.
Now imagine we have another stage that's fairly similar to Final Destination. At first thought, you probably think "well Final Destination is legal so this stage should be too" but this can have some pretty serious implications.
I'm sure most people know the debate between the varying versions of DSR, and in particular the version that only disallows picking the stage you last won on. We've all seen the sets where that allows m2k to pick Final Destination twice, and we all know why that's a problem.
When you have stages that aren't significantly different from one another you basically end up with this problem.

 

[trash?]

that's already a problem tbh, it's that but with bowser and small stages

JCz mentioned this on commentary on the BH3 grand finals, even if chad banned solely small stages, there's so many that kirk would still be able to counterpick one of them anyways

 

[Pitzer]

Bowser is stupid. :C

 

[The_Altrox]

Halberd is a cp, but it is banned on a regular basis. Why? Idk. Probably because slopes, ceiling, and hazards. Its a shame tho.


Yes. We kinda have that issue now.

The hazards were never that bad, and the claw was removed. I loved it as a counterpick in Brawl.

As for issues with too many viable stages, why not allow more than just one stage ban (unless that changed too. I never played P:M in a tourney, and I haven't been to a brawl tourney in years.)

Personally, I don't like it that a lot of counterpicks in P:M lean a bit too neutral (though obviously, there are nuances that give X character an advantage.)
Personally, I felt that Brawl had good counterpicks: the stages that are a bit too off to be starters, but work as a counterpick. For me, those stages were a good go to when I had a tough opponent, as sometimes, the unorthodoxy of a given stage can throw an opponent off, but not to the point where it was suddenly unfair. And while the stages on page 1 are nice, some of them are a tad bit stagnant for my tastes in counterpicks.

 

[MonkUnit]

 

[metroid1117]

PS1 too? I noticed it was on page 2, but I figured now that the windmill is gone...

PS1 was moved to page 2 for greater stage variety on page 1; it was too similar to PS2 to warrant being on page 1.

 

[Jolteon]

This season was so good.

 

[Kati]

I hate Frigate's second form. Not because it's disruptive or anything, but that middle portion is so strong for people to fight from. Like playing Falcon on that part might as well be unplayable.

Edit: Delfino is OK, it would be a much better stage if you modified some of the transformations though. Or if the stage only went to a few places. Some of them lead to really bad "options" for approaching, not as bad as the PS1 burning tree or rock wall, but still bad.

PS1 would be great if you take off a few transformations. I dunno how far we are on that/if we can do that, but it would be relatively easy to tweak some of these stages to be competitive if the game allows us to fiddle with it.

My edited version of the fire and rock fields render the former a mere variation/deviation from the standard ps1 layout, while the former still has a wall and while is more open, is admittedly subject to the same stalling.

http://img842.imageshack.us/img842/9837/al1302021303bin.png

I am currently testing a version with absolutely no platforms present in the rock field. This eliminates the pit, and opens up the whole stage. But as you can see from the picture, taking out the tree makes the fire field appear to be playable (my playtesting is too limited to actually confirm that though).

edit

a long while back I replaced the rock field with ps2's rock and electric transformations. Ps2 organizes its lighting data differently from ps1, resulting in a saturated ps2 rock field. Both transformations suffered from some sort of glitch that no one was able to help me with. Characters would instantly slide from the centre of the stage to the left ledge. What's nice about ps2's rock field though is that the dirt mound can be shrunk easily, or removed altogether.

 

[GHNeko]

There can be too many viable stages when said stages don't offer significant enough differences between how they play.
Matchups can vary pretty significantly depending on the stage. Take Marth vs spacies. Obviously it can be pretty lopsided on Final Destination.
Now imagine we have another stage that's fairly similar to Final Destination. At first thought, you probably think "well Final Destination is legal so this stage should be too" but this can have some pretty serious implications.
I'm sure most people know the debate between the varying versions of DSR, and in particular the version that only disallows picking the stage you last won on. We've all seen the sets where that allows m2k to pick Final Destination twice, and we all know why that's a problem.
When you have stages that aren't significantly different from one another you basically end up with this problem.

This is why i like group bans, but few people do because "well you're subjectively creating groups!!!! what if i dont agree this stage belongs in group A!!!" which is a valid concern, but i mean stage lists in general are subjective as hell. there's just less disparity because the stage lists are smaller when you dont use group bans.

The hazards were never that bad, and the claw was removed. I loved it as a counterpick in Brawl.

As for issues with too many viable stages, why not allow more than just one stage ban (unless that changed too. I never played P:M in a tourney, and I haven't been to a brawl tourney in years.)

Personally, I don't like it that a lot of counterpicks in P:M lean a bit too neutral (though obviously, there are nuances that give X character an advantage.)
Personally, I felt that Brawl had good counterpicks: the stages that are a bit too off to be starters, but work as a counterpick. For me, those stages were a good go to when I had a tough opponent, as sometimes, the unorthodoxy of a given stage can throw an opponent off, but not to the point where it was suddenly unfair. And while the stages on page 1 are nice, some of them are a tad bit stagnant for my tastes in counterpicks.

the bomb was really high potency lol. it was nuts, and there was something about the claw that was dumb too. the laser is fine for the most part (i wish i could SDI completely out of it and the final hitbox didnt expand past the laser itself)

i think its great, but it's no a popular stage.

i kinda feel the smash community is too conservative with stages in general. there is a general distaste for YI:B because of its slopes and randall jr. Randall Jr i can understand, but the slopes kinda push it for me, but then again, I don't play characters that are adversely affected by slopes haha.

 

[The_Altrox]

I get that they're conservative. And that's fine. I'm fine with starter stages. But I like that light X factor that certain counterpicks used to offer, and I feel that removing those stages remove counterpick variety. They weren't nearly as bad as banned stages that completely destrow gameplay (DK 75 and such.)

 

[Kally Wally]

Are the ghosts on Yoshi's Island still random?

 

[Oro?!]

Stage size doesn't matter to Bowser that much... What he truly doesn't like are open stages like FD/Smashville/GHZ where Bowser can't cover his weak defensive areas with platforms. That's why Kirk bans the way he does. If he had a third ban at BH3 I guarantee he would've banned GHZ despite beating Chad there.

 

[GHNeko]

I get that they're conservative. And that's fine. I'm fine with starter stages. But I like that light X factor that certain counterpicks used to offer, and I feel that removing those stages remove counterpick variety. They weren't nearly as bad as banned stages that completely destrow gameplay (DK 75 and such.)

Well that's the issue with being conservative I guess haha.

Brawl players and Melee players have to make due with what they have. We dont. So it's radically different as a result.

You could say smashers tolerated **** in their respective games because they had no choice.

Are the ghosts on Yoshi's Island still random?

Unfortunately, yes.

 

[Yung Mei]

stage flipping isnt really that big an issue with frigate. Both players can easily avoid the flip by simply Jumping before the flip

 

[GunBlaze]

stage flipping isnt really that big an issue with frigate. Both players can easily avoid the flip by simply Jumping before the flip

I know, right?

 

[Hylian]

If people want to play on counterpicks then host tournaments. I just had a PM one last weekend and I made the ruleset have a ton of stages and 4 bans, including things like Frigate/DK64/SSEJungle etc with the purpose of testing the stages in a tournament setting.

 

[The_Altrox]

stage flipping isnt really that big an issue with frigate. Both players can easily avoid the flip by simply Jumping before the flip

That's what I do. And you get a warning too with the sirens. That being said, I think most PM players would not be cool with it if they got caught in a bad spot, leading to their death.

 

[Yung Mei]

the problem is, is that people look at these stages and disregard them without giving them a second thought or even attempting to learn them. I played a friendly last GC on Pictochat and then they accidentally SD'd by trying to waveland onto one of the outer drawn platforms. Even when i told them to count to like 10 or so (im pretty sure all picto transformations last the same amount of time before going away) then transition themselves into a better position away from the drawings they were still like, "NAH MAN, **** THAT DUMB ASS STAGE"

 

[trash?]

idea w/r/t yoshi's island's ghoulhelpers: could there be a way to just have a 2D arrow graphic over the ghosts whenever the game decides they'll pop up when you go over them? it creates consistency in which someone will IMMEDIATELY understand what will happen should they choose to go for the next edgeguard, which is important given how those platforms are a big deal when deciding counterpicks

the problem is, is that people look at these stages and disregard them without giving them a second thought or even attempting to learn them. I played a friendly last GC on Pictochat and then they accidentally SD'd by trying to waveland onto one of the outer drawn platforms. Even when i told them to count to like 10 or so (im pretty sure all picto transformations last the same amount of time before going away) then transition themselves into a better position away from the drawings they were still like, "NAH MAN, **** THAT DUMB *** STAGE"

but even from a standpoint where ppl tried PC in 2.1, it was an obnoxious stage. another final destination at best, gimmicky transformations at worst