For Quick Draw, most characters can just stick out a long-lasting aerial for him to run into, or at least to get him to have to throw it out later than he might like.
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Project M Social Thread
- Thread starter Project M
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metroid1117
Smash Master
That might work, but depending on what you throw out, Ike can use QD attack to knock you out of the way. He doesn't go into freefall after a QD attack hits, so he can then up+B and get back if he hits from high enough.
Shadic
Alakadoof?
Because this isn't Brawl.
cannedbread
Smash Lord
kind of want to know why he can walljump out of quick draw
it's not like can even walljump in the first place, like mario
i just don't see the justification for it other than mite b cool
it's not like can even walljump in the first place, like mario
i just don't see the justification for it other than mite b cool
Kizzu-kun
Smash Journeyman
"I don't care about dying" edgeguarding technology: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wb1RTIhzRtI&feature=player_detailpage#t=100s
Every video here is about Ike doing sweetspotted Aethers.
edit: metroid1117 already beat me, dang.
Just complimenting the QD attack stuff, Ike can auto-attack within the range by holding A.
GP&B
Ike 'n' Ike
leelue
Smash Lord
He still isn't 100% free. Less free than Bowser that's for sure.
I also don't have a clue as to why he was given a magic walljump.
Metroid, How hard is all that edgeguarding in practice? It seems like every half inch difference in either height or horizontal space for Aether requires a new strategy.
I also don't have a clue as to why he was given a magic walljump.
Metroid, How hard is all that edgeguarding in practice? It seems like every half inch difference in either height or horizontal space for Aether requires a new strategy.
`dazrin
Smash Champion
If the sword didn't stick out a mile into the stage while Ike is up-bing, it wouldn't be a big deal lol.
Anyways, both Kizzu and Metroid show that it's definitely possible to do. It just seems like it might be kind of risky/unsafe to do it in a tournament setting, but hey, high risk-high reward?
Anyways, both Kizzu and Metroid show that it's definitely possible to do. It just seems like it might be kind of risky/unsafe to do it in a tournament setting, but hey, high risk-high reward?
JediKnightTemplar
Smash Lord
I think that video basically just proved Kage's point. All but one of the edgeguards shown involved Ganon dying as well. I'm not saying there aren't other possible edgeguarding options for Ganon, but I think this pretty solid evidence that Kage's right.
cannedbread
Smash Lord
kage you should just give up and grab a pocket sheik for ike matchup
it's not fun but neither is dealing with ike's bullsh**
it's not fun but neither is dealing with ike's bullsh**
MaxThunder
PM Support
ah... well then that was not a good choice of word... in my defense, i did say i didn't know what it meant...
anyways... when the input lag is so low i can actually react to stuff, then it's pretty good...
JCaesar
Smash Hero
Spoon~
Smash Ace
Lucarios dash attack is ridic o.o
DrinkingFood
Smash Hero
But lucario can't approach
remember guiz
remember guiz
JediKnightTemplar
Smash Lord
He does, but it's really hard to do. You have to press down on the d-pad on your wiimote and then press 1 or 2- I can't remember which. This game is very confusing.
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Well I don't know who'll take vs Ike yet but I will figure it out. Also, ya those options shown in the vid makes it seem like the edgeguards are incredibly risky and also that those situations do not really happen often.kage you should just give up and grab a pocket sheik for ike matchup
it's not fun but neither is dealing with ike's bullsh**
GP&B
Ike 'n' Ike
I don't think runoff DJ Bair was shown but I felt like that would be reliable for hitting Ike out of the top of Up B. It wouldn't necessarily KO him unless he was below the stage.
cannedbread
Smash Lord
metroid1117
Smash Master
It takes practice, but I've found out today that the easiest way, by far, for Ganondorf is to just FAir. It's best to double-jump over Ragnell and fastfall the FAir down on top Ike while he's spinning. I have some offline replays (using the Wi-fi codeset) with Mad and used different characters (including Ganon), I'll upload them sometime tomorrow.
As a side-note, Mad never really sweetspotted with up+B, so I never got to show the falling UAir.
EDIT:
The video was meant to showcase techniques that involve suiciding. If you don' want to be flashy, you can just edgehog. Ike is difficult to edgeguard, but by no means is it impossible.I think that video basically just proved Kage's point. All but one of the edgeguards shown involved Ganon dying as well. I'm not saying there aren't other possible edgeguarding options for Ganon, but I think this pretty solid evidence that Kage's right.
Kizzu-kun
Smash Journeyman
Don't get me wrong, I also think that edgeguarding Ike is perhaps too hard for some characters, I'm really not arguing about that. However options like that still exists for Ganondorf, and if can use them if you have the advantage do it please.
Also, it isn't very easy to sweetspot with Ike, of course it is easier than other characters. Players won't have that kind of consistency in this early game, but yeah, it'll change in future.
Against non sweetspotted Aethers, Ganondorf's Wizard Foot hits when Ike hits its apex,you also can crouch cancel the sword when he throws as well. (actually you can't, sorry for the misinformation) Ike's sword won't hit anything above the ground if he sweetspots, so you can avoid doing it if Ganondorf doesn't get hit.
But to be honest, the best edgeguard setup against Ike's Aether is edgehogging. I haven't test it, but if you put him in an edgeguard loop (similar to Sheik) and the crouch cancel works and turns Ganondorf around you perhaps can do what I described above.
Also, it isn't very easy to sweetspot with Ike, of course it is easier than other characters. Players won't have that kind of consistency in this early game, but yeah, it'll change in future.
Against non sweetspotted Aethers, Ganondorf's Wizard Foot hits when Ike hits its apex,
But to be honest, the best edgeguard setup against Ike's Aether is edgehogging.
Sanity's_Theif
Smash Ace
There need to be... like... another tournament with P:M in it near me... so I can go kick some legit ***, I beast with the Zelda characters, and Falco(I think)
Spoon~
Smash Ace
Metroid you back in chicago area? We gotta play some matches. =P
metroid1117
Smash Master
Yup, I'm back. Would you be willing to go to a tournament in IL on Saturday, 8/25?Metroid you back in chicago area? We gotta play some matches. =P
Spoon~
Smash Ace
cannedbread
Smash Lord
i know that feel bro. can't wait to start working and going to school and heing independent and whatnot so i can do moree stuff.
Mr.Pickle
Smash Lord
The more broken stuff thats found and fixed, the more final the actual "final" release is, so if a character is broken, do something about it now.
Kink-Link5
Smash Hero
Good thing there aren't broken characters.
UltiMario
Out of Obscurity
You can't believe how wrong this statement could possibly be.Shouldn't we wait until the final release before we decide who's broken? I want to see what kind of monster mk is. None of the changes made to pm will make him any worse so I'll bet he'll be a bit more broken than Ike.
There have been several attempts the PMBR has made where MK ended up on either side of balance, stupid good or stupid bad.
Mr.Pickle
Smash Lord
Broken no but there are some characters that are close to that line, and this game does have some pretty obnoxious things in it. Thats why its a demo though lol.
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
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[general]
The problem with this is that it's a very short sighted determination of something as broken. No matter how accelerated Project M's metagame may be, it is still way too early for people to be making accurate tier lists and throwing around terms such as "broken," "overpowered," or "unbeatable." If after 6 more months of people actually attempting to find ways around tactics/characters (read: a pretty good thing people could be doing instead of spending said time complaining about it on the forums), the tactics/characters are still proving to be a bit too effective, we'll make the necessary adjustments. We aren't stupid. In mere demo form, we've already created the greatest Smash game of all time. Please, have more faith in us than that.
[Ike-specific]
It seems that people's complaints are driven toward what's popular, rather than what's actually effective, as well. All too many Ike's drowned in pools at FC, with only one of them performing well at all. Is that indicative of Ike being broken? To me, it isn't. To me, it's indicative of Vro doing what was necessary to perform well; he practiced with his character, he developed his metagame, he played the game quite a bit, and his skill in the game was rewarded when he almost took the whole thing, and he still lost against a player that most likely played the game far less than he did. Heck, for all we know, Lucas could be overpowered, and no one is using him, so how are we supposed to know? Maybe Ness is a secret Ike counter that Ike isn't able to do anything about? The fact of the matter is that people are spending more time complaining about how difficult Ike is to fight than figuring out how to more effectively fight against Ike. And what are the Ike players doing? They're practicing, they're getting better, they're getting more experience in match-ups. It's no wonder they're doing well; they're actually trying to get good at the game! We're simply not going to reward the prior kind of behavior, else any and all characters that people don't like fighting against will be subject to nerfing. Sorry. Play the game. Get better. Develop the metagame. If changes are needed they will happen when it's apparent to us that they are necessary, and not a moment sooner. The potential of this game is simply too great to go the easy route and water down the competitive side by punishing people for advancing the metagame nearly immediately. We're not Capcom; we're better.
Crying for Ike nerfs seems no different from crying for a Meta Knight ban. Get better first, then we'll talk.
I support this statement.
To be fair, Lucas seems -really- good. I don't understand why he doesn't see more use.
Kink-Link5
Smash Hero
what like
Fox, Jigglypuff, and Falco? Pretty sure they were top tier in Melee.
I can say this is possible at the least. Both Ness and Ike have a blindspot if they come in from the air, but PKF can hinder heavily ground based approaches. I still have to see how good Ness's DD is in more application, but I recall it being of a decent length, so it could bait and make Ike whiff for a free opening. Being geographically challenged and Ness having a player base of like 3, makes it hard to test it out though.
Mr.Pickle
Smash Lord
Don't interpret that as me thinking you guys are stupid lol. I have respect for a lot of you, and I think that the pmbr has done some really good work. Also I know that to have a good understanding about balance in a game, you need plenty of time and data...I'm just saying its a little easier to reach that conclusion because this game is about 85% melee, so its going to grow a lot faster than melee took. I understand where you come from though strongbad, I'm definitely not asking for you guys to immediately fix something that I think is broken, I guess all I'm asking is that maybe take a second look at some things.
*edit* - no kinklink, they may be annoying but they're the melee top tier, this project wouldn't work if they were changed too much. I'm talking about things like bowser crawl armor lol. It doesn't make him really broken, but its obnoxious and its like, "why is this in here"? I don't like ike's design that much anymore, but that horse has been flogged to death already, so I'll just leave it at that.
*edit* - no kinklink, they may be annoying but they're the melee top tier, this project wouldn't work if they were changed too much. I'm talking about things like bowser crawl armor lol. It doesn't make him really broken, but its obnoxious and its like, "why is this in here"? I don't like ike's design that much anymore, but that horse has been flogged to death already, so I'll just leave it at that.
Kink-Link5
Smash Hero
Crawl armor is to make Bowser not lolfree to projectiles.
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