Project M Social Thread

[Vaerix]

If I remember correctly, removing transcendent priority on mk's moves made everything clank with aerials or something.

In other news, so much good news about 2.5. So stoked.

 

[leafbarrett]

I like that leaf knows more about mechanics that can be explored in bbox/psa than just about every regular

It's because I started into the hacking business within an hour of the release of PSA. I'm hopeless with hex editing and the like, but give me a tool and some instructions and I'm good to go.

 

[Wavebuster]

Instead of using the term "transcendent priority" you could simply say clankable/unclankable and not sound like a nob.
n
MK's moves being clankable are an odd thing because they used article based hitboxes, as a projectile would use. Some ZSS's hitboxes on Nair and Fsmash also experience this. If the move is a ground move and is clanked by something, the move won't clash cancel. This also means the hitboxes can be canceled out in the air by other aerials even though the move itself won't stop.

 

[leafbarrett]

Instead of using the term "transcendent priority" you could simply say clankable/unclankable and not sound like a nob.
n
MK's moves being clankable are an odd thing because they used article based hitboxes, as a projectile would use. Some ZSS's hitboxes on Nair and Fsmash also experience this. If the move is a ground move and is clanked by something, the move won't clash cancel. This also means the hitboxes can be canceled out in the air by other aerials even though the move itself won't stop.

All right, fair enough. Transcendent priority is a pain to type out anyhow. XD
Huh. I'll admit, I haven't looked into MK's attacks in depth, but I can see how that would cause some issues. Articles follow some really wacky clanking mechanics. I run into problems with it a lot when fighting Mario. I swear, those fireballs clank against freaking EVERYTHING.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Trans priority can be bad in some cases too, for example MK can't hit incoming projectiles out of the air to stop them because none of his hitboxes clank.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

Isn't his vBrawl egg throw superior, though? On the ground, it's the same, and in the air, it greatly helps with recovery. SideB won't always be enough to save Yoshi. You still have to fall quite a bit with it.

The little boast he gets in the air actually makes throwing eggs from the ledge very awkward to do. I don't know about the grounded version, but I think that they have a different trajectory. Also, side b is an amazing addition to his recovery already, so I think he is fine in that department.

 

[Juushichi]

In what, Mr. Pickle? Brawl?

I don't think so. This is in terms of throwing eggs from the ledge. The overall egg throwing trajectory is more limited in Brawl from Melee, though. Not going to lie, I'd be a lot more in tune with his jump from Brawl in up-B... though if I remember correctly, doesn't the egg roll one have different applications anyway?

What not have both?

 

[Mr.Pickle]

Yeah sorry I should've been more clear on that lol, but its not the fact the little boast is too good of recovery option, its mainly how it messes up his ability to throw eggs off the ledge. So if there was a way to implement his little jump on his up b, without compromising egg throw off the ledge, I wouldn't see anything wrong with it.

 

[GunBlaze]

Isn't his vBrawl egg throw superior, though? On the ground, it's the same, and in the air, it greatly helps with recovery. SideB won't always be enough to save Yoshi. You still have to fall quite a bit with it.

Recovery, yeah. Offensively...

 

[Xebenkeck]

Pretty much, Yoshis eggs in melee cover way more area, you can throw them behind you a fair ways, but yoshis recovery in Brawl is one of the better and harder ones to gimp due to the little boost.

 

[GunBlaze]

I hate Brawl's Egg Throw. So damn limited trajectories >

 

[Stunts]

It'll be great if the eggs don't explode as soon as they do, also.

And I also wish that he has his 64 fair

But I'm gonna stop *****ing for now. We got Zamus, for crying out loud! :D

 

[jalued]

It'll be great if the eggs don't explode as soon as they do, also.

And I also wish that he has his 64 fair

But I'm gonna stop *****ing for now. We got Zamus, for crying out loud! :D

It would be a nice addition for you to be able to hold B until you want the egg to explode

 

[bubbaking]

I like that leaf knows more about mechanics that can be explored in bbox/psa than just about every regular

You're assuming that "every regular" has a computer that's good enough to run bbox/psa on. All I can use bbox for is looping my songs along with Audacity. Not all of us are rich, Leelue...

Instead of using the term "transcendent priority" you could simply say clankable/unclankable and not sound like a nob.
n
MK's moves being clankable are an odd thing because they used article based hitboxes, as a projectile would use. Some ZSS's hitboxes on Nair and Fsmash also experience this. If the move is a ground move and is clanked by something, the move won't clash cancel. This also means the hitboxes can be canceled out in the air by other aerials even though the move itself won't stop.

So basically, the game is treating certain ground moves as aerials?

Trans priority can be bad in some cases too, for example MK can't hit incoming projectiles out of the air to stop them because none of his hitboxes clank.

'Nado bro.

The little boast he gets in the air actually makes throwing eggs from the ledge very awkward to do. I don't know about the grounded version, but I think that they have a different trajectory. Also, side b is an amazing addition to his recovery already, so I think he is fine in that department.

Well, you could just give Yoshi qualities of both, tbh. Besides, wouldn't the upB 'hop' make it easier for him to do this ledge tech? Notice how Yoshi has to use his DJ to perform the tech every time, so if he somehow gets hit out of that, he'll die for sure. However, using the vBrawl upB 'hop', Yoshi can perform the tech without losing his DJ.

 

[leafbarrett]

You're assuming that "every regular" has a computer that's good enough to run bbox/psa on. All I can use bbox for is looping my songs along with Audacity. Not all of us are rich, Leelue...

...Brawlbox requires a good computer?

 

[bubbaking]

Well I'd assume so to do complicated animation things with it (I've admittedly never tried). Don't overestimate my computer. It's 7 years old (oh wait, it's almost 8 now) and still has a Pentium D processor and only 2 GB of RAM.

Edit: I've seen impoverished people with a better computer than mine.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Back from Joker's monthly, and, to quote various players:

"Yo Charizard's nair is Godlike"

"Charizard is actually a threat now"

"Charizard is so good in PM"

"Yooo, that nair combo was mad cute" (Referring to warparound nair-Full hop nair-> DJ nair; FF -> Fly wraparound nair (initial hit was avoided by an airdodge, but the wraparound then hit afterward) -> DJ Up-B to kill at ~98%

"What they did to Sheik's throw was dumb, but she should still be able counter Falcon and other characters with her pokes and bair"

"Ike is stupid"

"I heard they're changing Ike to have like, Roy hitboxes or something dumb" (I assured them it was all subject to change and wasn't at all like Roy's hits, being more abot giving you safer moves when spaces far, but more powerful ones when spaced in the middle of the sword)

"It's still weird that you get less reward for spacing the move, but whatever"

"Zelda's two hitboxes on her kicks... really dumb that the Melee hits aren't actual Melee hits"

"Charizard's hitboxes don't make any sense" (I think mostly referring to nair, but the player in question did know about his wonky hitboxes like fair and u-tilt, etc.)"

"I can't wait to use Ivysaur in the next build"

"(Various comments on how stuff feels off; I assured them that any discrepancies are due to knockback stacking for combos, new character hit and hurtboxes, how cloth moves around when referring to Marth feeling off)"

 

[JOE!]

Everyone else is posting Yoshi stuff

Like somebody said before, Yoshi's standard moves just need to be link-ifyed (adjust speed/%, etc), but I could see his specials all getting some work.

Egg Throw:
Keep the hop from brawl, and buff the explosion radius by a bit when it goes off. The explosion itself should act more like tink's bombs and hit 2x for 5%, with the second hit having some KB.

Egg Lay:
Increase range on the tounge to like, 1.5x its current length/length of his grab. On top of this, when he poops out an egg it should be at a diagonally downward angle so its always on the ground, and alternatively makes it a little scary if you catch somebody offstage. Lastly, when the egg breaks, give it the same hitbox as his egg toss to allow him to keep up the damage. This is his signature move, it should be Damn good lol.

Egg Roll:
Side B should be altered a good deal, but keep one aspect of it's melee self: the hop. In melee, when done in the air he boosted forward slightly. Expanding on that, how about making the roll similar to Sonic's side b in that it is a "hop" forward while in a rolling egg, but the move now ends after touching ground or jumping instead of continually rolling. On top of that, the initial hop should have super/heavy armor due to him essentially shielding himself, and allowing Yoshi to use the move to plow through basic attacks with the burst. Otherwise the move should remain the same in terms of %/KB, but add the ability to jump out of it at some point.

If Yoshi does not jump out, he will be stuck in the egg roll till he hits ground, allowing him to perform a recovery tactic of side b-jump-(eggthrows)-side b again instead of just relying on his double jump.

Yoshi Bomb:
I have a few thoughts on this move, bit in general I feel as though it should keep the brawl "launch" hitbox from the ground that combos to the drop, as well as maybe increased power.

1) When Yoshi uses this from the ground, give the leap the same heavy armor he has on his double jump. This will turn the move into a pseudo-counter at lower%, allowing Yoshi to punish poor spacing against him by trucking through a move and bombing the for thanks to the launcher hitbox.

2) When Yoshi spins before slamming down, give it a hitbox similar to say, kirbys brawl Nair. This could allow aerial down b to become a sort of anti-combo tool as he knocks people away, then plummets to the relative safety of the ground.

3) When Yoshi lands, buff the stars that POP out in some manner. Probably the weirdest of the options, but turning those into something useful could give use to doing a SH bomb, lol. Or, just make being near Yoshi when he drops a bit riskier.

4) Give Yoshi his DJ armor while dropping down. Straightforward, allows it to just be more threatening.

Any one of these would be cool imo.

General:
Make Yoshi's head intangible/invincible during the start up of his shield animation. He can't shield projectiles because of that, and its dumb. Speaking of shield, is it possible to give Yoshi much more shield HP? That could make his normally "bad" shield worthwhile as it not only prevents pokes, but can take more abuse in general in exchange for its normal drawbacks.


Thoughts?

 

[ZelDan]

I don't really like the "feels off" statement that some people make.

I know this game is called "Project Melee", but I don't think that should mean the game should 100% be like Melee, but just more melee-like. If a character is different from their Melee counter-part, then just don't play the character exactly like in Melee?

maybe I'm missing something here...

 

[standardtoaster]

"how cloth moves around when referring to Marth feeling off"

lol

 

[jalued]

I don't really like the "feels off" statement that some people make.

I know this game is called "Project Melee", but I don't think that should mean the game should 100% be like Melee, but just more melee-like. If a character is different from their Melee counter-part, then just don't play the character exactly like in Melee?

maybe I'm missing something here...

It's just for melee characters and wanting the control over your character to feel similar to melee. I hear with the momentum changes falco feels a lot better but I'm still mystified as to why marth always feels off.

 

[drsusredfish]

I like that leaf knows more about mechanics that can be explored in bbox/psa than just about every regular

Do I count as a regular?

Spoiler

Doubt it but just in case, See you in 3 weeks

 

[bubbaking]

I don't really like the "feels off" statement that some people make.

I know this game is called "Project Melee", but I don't think that should mean the game should 100% be like Melee, but just more melee-like. If a character is different from their Melee counter-part, then just don't play the character exactly like in Melee?

maybe I'm missing something here...

Don't question it.

#BecauseMelee

 

[Wobbly Headed Bob]

lol guise I played PM2.5 and it was nice. Good job. I'm really impressed.


Anyway, I was wondering if you guys would consider making it so that Ike's Aether grabs the ledge while facing the other way at any time or height unless you're holding down.

When I played Brawl, I mained Ike, and perhaps the most fun part about playing him was all the ledge games. Aside that PoR is my favorite video game, all the aether tricks in Brawl made him stick out from the rest of the cast for me.

It would provide for more sophisticated ledge-guarding and ledge games than just the mindless "JUMP OUT AND FAIR". Possibly, PM's increased speed and gravity would make aether tricks less viable than in Brawl, but it certainly wouldn't hurt.

Such a feature would contribute more to the idea that Ike was tweaked rather than nerfed. All the Ike Aether tricks are something that sometimes made me consider playing Brawl again. It was something I wanted to explore in PM, but they just weren't there. Honestly, I kind of feel like Ike is too simplistic, stale, and maybe not-so-fun in his current form.

PLEASE I BEG OF YOU.

 

[bubbaking]

Anyway, I was wondering if you guys would consider making it so that Ike's Aether grabs the ledge while facing the other way at any time or height unless you're holding down.

I don't usually say this, but that would be dumb...

 

[Wobbly Headed Bob]

....

I don't usually say this, but that would be dumb...

D:

Why


I spiked Axe with Up B and it was cool, but I only lived because Marth's dolphin slash managed to him me.

 

[drsusredfish]

how is drop off the ledge up b an aether trick? its too simple to get rewards like brawl gave it.

 

[Kink-Link5]

"how cloth moves around when referring to Marth feeling off"

lol

"That would have hit in Melee!"

"No, no it wouldn't I guaranty it "

 

[#HBC | Joker]

@bubba for being dumb. Yoshi having a normal shield just like everyone else is not an unreasonable buff. He NEEDS those things in or to have any ability to respond to pressure. Parrying is NOT better than having a normal shield. Yoshi does not parry because it's a great thing to do. He does it because his shield is ***, and Yoshi players are making the best of a bad situation. It's not "something that makes him unique", it's "something that makes him terrible". His shield can actually be poked too. His feet hurtboxes stick out of the bottom of the egg, even though his actual feet don't.

You clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[metroid1117]

lol guise I played PM2.5 and it was nice. Good job. I'm really impressed.


Anyway, I was wondering if you guys would consider making it so that Ike's Aether grabs the ledge while facing the other way at any time or height unless you're holding down.

When I played Brawl, I mained Ike, and perhaps the most fun part about playing him was all the ledge games. Aside that PoR is my favorite video game, all the aether tricks in Brawl made him stick out from the rest of the cast for me.

It would provide for more sophisticated ledge-guarding and ledge games than just the mindless "JUMP OUT AND FAIR". Possibly, PM's increased speed and gravity would make aether tricks less viable than in Brawl, but it certainly wouldn't hurt.

Such a feature would contribute more to the idea that Ike was tweaked rather than nerfed. All the Ike Aether tricks are something that sometimes made me consider playing Brawl again. It was something I wanted to explore in PM, but they just weren't there. Honestly, I kind of feel like Ike is too simplistic, stale, and maybe not-so-fun in his current form.

PLEASE I BEG OF YOU.

Aether did edgegrab like in Brawl in Demo 2.0, but this was changed in Demo 2.1. I wasn't in the PMBR when that change was made, but I'm guessing it's to make his backward ledge grabs more consistent with the rest of the cast, since they can only do it at the peak of their up+B as well.

Ike does seem "simplistic [and] stale" at the surface, but his QD trickies and great grab game make him really fun to play. If you played vBrawl, you might be familiar with the reverse hitbox on the BAir; in PM, this hitbox is great for continuing combos off of UThrow or NAir. Reverse BAir -> QD turnaround -> BAir is probably one of the most satisfying things you can do with Ike. Not being able to grab the edge backwards at any given point on his up+B is disheartening at first (I dropped a game in WF of the first 2.1 tournament I played because of it), but in my opinion, his new tricks and options make him leagues more fun to play than his vBrawl counterpart.

 

[bubbaking]

@bubba for being dumb. Yoshi having a normal shield just like everyone else is not an unreasonable buff. He NEEDS those things in or to have any ability to respond to pressure. Parrying is NOT better than having a normal shield. Yoshi does not parry because it's a great thing to do. He does it because his shield is ***, and Yoshi players are making the best of a bad situation. It's not "something that makes him unique", it's "something that makes him terrible". His shield can actually be poked too. His feet hurtboxes stick out of the bottom of the egg, even though his actual feet don't.

You clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

Lolz, you're talking about vBrawl, not Melee. I don't believe Yoshi's shield was stabbable in Melee (I could be wrong but I think the 'feet poking out' was only vBrawl). Oh, parrying isn't a "great thing to do"? Wow, I never knew! You asking for Yoshi to have a regular shield is like me asking for Samus to have a shieldgrab that's as fast as everyone else's. It just doesn't make sense because you're simply asking for him/her to have everything under the sun. Learn reasonable design, plz!

Edit: So let me get this straight. You want Yoshi to have a non-stabbable shield that he can jump out of and drops as fast as everyone else's that also gives him invincibility while he's putting it up and that (when lightshielding is finally ported in) gives him a free escape from shield pressure? All while he has incredible mobility due to his DJ and DJC and the ability to CC well both on the ground (heavyweight) and in the air (DJ armor)? And you think I'm the crazy one?

 

[leafbarrett]

His shield can actually be poked too. His feet hurtboxes stick out of the bottom of the egg, even though his actual feet don't.

Well, one step in the right direction would be to fix that, wouldn't it?

Lolz, you're talking about vBrawl, not Melee. I don't believe Yoshi's shield was stabbable in Melee (I could be wrong but I think the 'feet poking out' was only vBrawl). Oh, parrying isn't a "great thing to do"? Wow, I never knew! You asking for Yoshi to have a regular shield is like me asking for Samus to have a shieldgrab that's as fast as everyone else's. It just doesn't make sense because you're simply asking for him/her to have everything under the sun. Learn reasonable design, plz!

Okay, what exactly is wrong with Yoshi's shield? Forgive my ignorance, I remember someone mentioning it a long while back, but I can't remember the reason.
Also, what exactly is going on in that video? What is a parry in this context? It looks like he's just shielding, then releasing shield, shorthopping, then a nair.

 

[Stunts]

@ Joe!
Some of those changes I've seen in streams already. Was that you?

 

[bubbaking]

Okay, what exactly is wrong with Yoshi's shield? Forgive my ignorance, I remember someone mentioning it a long while back, but I can't remember the reason.

The 'problem' with Yoshi's shield is that it takes him way longer to drop a shield than it takes everyone else and he can't jump out of it like everyone else can. Therefore, his best OoS options under pressure are usually to shieldgrab or spot-dodge. However, this is a greater problem in vBrawl because parries, lightshields, CCs, and DJCs don't exist. Funnily enough, vBrawl Yoshi kinda proves that one can use mobility as a defense instead of a shield.

Also, what exactly is going on in that video? What is a parry in this context? It looks like he's just shielding, then releasing shield, shorthopping, then a nair.

Yoshi is invincible during his shield start-up animation. His shield doesn't come out on frame 1 like everyone else's, I believe, but his body's invincible so it doesn't matter. Here, educate yourself :
SSB64: How to parry/block counter with Yoshi
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVLRJ4jCBeI#t=20s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOER1_Rl7Yk

Edit: Btw, yes, you actually got the input sequence correct, but you just have to do it really fast. Also, it might be better to DJC nair so that Yoshi ends up on the ground for follow-ups immediately after the parry > nair, but I'm no Yoshi expert, sooooo....

 

[leafbarrett]

EDIT: Ninja'd.


...Random thought. If Zelda and Sheik are the same person, then why does Zelda move so much slower? I mean, I guess the dress accounts for some of it, but still.

 

[ph00tbag]

If it's possible to give a move guard point in this game, Yoshi's Egg Roll ought to have it more than any other move.

I definitely think being able to jump out of shield is a more than reasonable buff to Yoshi. Although, I feel like there's a certain uniqueness that he loses. I've actually always been a fan of my idea of allowing Yoshi to perform specials out of shield, but not being able to jump. That's my two cents.

 

[bubbaking]

If it's possible to give a move guard point in this game, Yoshi's Egg Roll ought to have it more than any other move.

What's "move guard point"?

 

[9Kplus1]

A window during the move in which Yoshi is able to freely transition from it to his shield.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

Sorry to go off topic but is there any particular reason why brawlbox doesn't show wario's hurtboxes? If this can't be answered here can someone direct to somewhere it can.

 

[NeoZ]

What's "move guard point"?

At window during the move in which Yoshi is able to freely transition from it to his shield.

A move having a guard point means that during part of the move you will automatically block attacks, it's like super armor, only without taking damage.
Imagine part of the move acting like a starman and the rest of the move being a regular attack.

Anji from GG is a pretty good example of a character with guard points: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yaoXUHhrTc