Project M Social Thread

[Lolo_knight]

I think that A2ZOMG had a good point there, giving link the ability to use the hookshoot after up b would increase a lot on his recovery options. I think sonic has a problem to with his recovery going straight up and breaking all the horizontal momentum he can be killed quite easily in low % with shine moves or links up b etc... but thats just me I dont even main sonic im just saying 'cuz i killed sonic's and link's that way where a move has nice horizontal throw back and they get screwed at even 30 40%.
As for the projectiles on link I love them, i can combo out of boomerang almost everytime it lands the arrows are great gimp...ers... and droping a bomb on a character for it to hold it and go OMG I HAVE A BO...BANG its lovely. I do feel like A2ZOMG in some of his points, and I understand what you are trying to say to him. WHAT I BELIVE is that link is not an easy pick up character, but he is really good once you get into him, he could use some help on his recovery and once u guys figure out landing detection his fair and nair will get him in beast mode.

my 2 cents there... sorry for grammar/spelling...and hugs (>^.^)>

 

[ClinkStryphart]

I think that A2ZOMG had a good point there, giving link the ability to use the hookshoot after up b would increase a lot on his recovery options. I think sonic has a problem to with his recovery going straight up and breaking all the horizontal momentum he can be killed quite easily in low % with shine moves or links up b etc... but thats just me I dont even main sonic im just saying 'cuz i killed sonic's and link's that way where a move has nice horizontal throw back and they get screwed at even 30 40%.
As for the projectiles on link I love them, i can combo out of boomerang almost everytime it lands the arrows are great gimp...ers... and droping a bomb on a character for it to hold it and go OMG I HAVE A BO...BANG its lovely. I do feel like A2ZOMG in some of his points, and I understand what you are trying to say to him. WHAT I BELIVE is that link is not an easy pick up character, but he is really good once you get into him, he could use some help on his recovery and once u guys figure out landing detection his fair and nair will get him in beast mode.

my 2 cents there... sorry for grammar/spelling...and hugs (>^.^)>

I agree that nothing can or really should be done until the balancing phase comes into play but I do agree that just giving link the ability to Z-air out of Air^B would probably help him out a ton. Other than that I really do have fun playing him. I usually only get a few hours a week to play with friends. Hectic work schedule 60+ hrs a week sucks. (work 2 jobs).

Anywho I really don't know when my schedule is gonna die down so I'm gonna have to offput working on the Link entrance for a while so If anyone else wants to go for it go ahead. Sorry but got college house payment and car payments

 

[Ulevo]

Here's the thing...this game is not nearly as new as you're trying to claim it is.

As much as it's true that Project M is an entirely new unofficial creation, the fact is the vast majority of the game is extremely representative of what was originally in Melee. And what we know works in Melee is common knowledge on these boards.

Yes this technically in name is not Melee. Yes if this was actually another completely different game, what I would be doing is jumping to conclusions without basis. But technicalities aren't what matter here.

I'm not a fan of people jumping to conclusions about a game that nobody has had time to absorb. Project M...is not like that. Granted there are still people who are slightly thrown off by the MINOR execution changes that are riddled in this game, but this is a game which in physics, options, and fundamentals is over 90% Melee, a game that we are extremely familiar with. And people who were legit at Melee are still legit in this game. The transition from Melee to this game is not like the transition from Brawl to Melee, which are in fact completely different games. It's more comparable to the transition from SSF4 to Arcade Edition, where within weeks after AE came out, it was pretty clear what to expect from the metagame.

I didn't even give pages of reasoning as to why Link sucked compared to everyone else. My original post was quite brief, though I don't care to dig it up right now.

It's nice to adhere to technicalities, but seriously, don't give me nonsense. We are smart players, and we can analyze tools. It's not as hard as you're trying to pretend it is.

I am not talking about differences of Project M versus Melee or Brawl. The topic is Link, and he is for many different reasons a very different character than in either game. Link didn't have these speed buffs in Melee, nor did he have the utility on his projectiles, and he has significantly more range now. In Brawl, he had zero combo game, and this changed the entire paradigm on how to use Link.

I don't buy your strawman. Sorry.

I also don't care how intelligent we are, we can't accurately predict the outcome of a characters potential with any consistency when that character is given new tools to use. You're arrogantly fooling yourself if you think you can. I would think this would be blatantly obvious; it's the direct reason why the PMBR is replicating the top tier characters in Project M as closely as they are capable. They don't have to assume results. Instead, they already have the results from the Melee metagame.

 

[leelue]

@ loloknight
Sonic has a horizontal recovery move. Spindash charge, hold down, hit c stick up.
He can also act out of up b (including walljump).

A2zomg has a point in saying melee and M are similar enough that the mains of melee characters (zelda being an outlier) should have a good idea for how good they are. Maybe not a perfect one, but yes, a good one.

I don't know if he is a link main, but he has a point there.

Most Link players I've heard like him, though not all.

In the end, I'm siding with falco400. Wait and see what happens.
I do think he will get changed though. link has been the target of a lot of complaints

 

[A2ZOMG]

I am not talking about differences of Project M versus Melee or Brawl. The topic is Link, and he is for many different reasons a very different character than in either game. Link didn't have these speed buffs in Melee, nor did he have the utility on his projectiles, and he has significantly more range now. In Brawl, he had zero combo game, and this changed the entire paradigm on how to use Link.

What utility on his projectiles? His projectiles are good PUNISHERS. That's all. Their actual utility sucks. Compare to Fox/Falco's lasers, Sheik's needles, Din's Fire, Link's projectiles are not good. Too slow and telegraphed.

Speed buffs? Grab has less ending lag, though it's not like his grab is truly more practical as a result, given the thing still sucks on whiff. F-tilt buff is the best speed buff he has, and for WALLING. Link's pressure game is still bad.

Brawl Link has zero combo game? Please cut the ignorance. Link is one of the more combo intensive characters in Brawl. Z-air sets up some of the most legit hit confirmable combos in the game, aside from infinite chaingrabs and Sheik's F-tilt lock. Link's combo game in Brawl is actually not really worse than the combo games of several lower tier characters in Melee, including Link himself provided you ignore combos on fastfallers that probably DIed badly. I could also mention that Bombs, Gale Boomerang, first hit B-air, and Jab2 are good for combos. Link sucks in Brawl partly because of stupidly imbalanced matchups against some top tiers who outmaneuver him for too great a reward, also because his KO moves are bad, not safe or powerful enough.

Furthermore, Link's good range is mostly on ground moves, none of which make really good pokes. His aerials might have somewhat above average range (in exchange for below average speed), but his mobility is bad.

Link in this game is primarily a character who just really has walls, and some fun rewarding moves once he gets you. He can't actually camp you effectively or approach you safely (likewise, I don't understand why the Project M Dojo even suggests that Zelda's strong point is defense, when her projectile is OBVIOUSLY terrible for camping). It's the same story we've seen from Melee, and unless characters magically got worse at approaching or dealing with slow projectiles, Link is still bad if that's all he's got going for him.

 

[Lolo_knight]

I can aproach really good with the boomerang, tho against falco i have a lot of problems (a good faco with lazers shine and dair) for 2 things, im not used to fighting falcos/ im not that good, and link just has it tought against falco, tho when i get my hook on em, they get comboed really good with the utilt and bair/fair cuz their fast fallers, still im woried that if DI is fixed links gonna have it tough on them... i think... etc... plz be gentle on my ignorance if theres any =D

Edit: CAN ANYONE TELL ME HOW TO DISABLE the function where i get an e-mail response every time some one posts after i do, im sick of "cancelling the subscripion" to the thread if i post again i get "suscribed" again... thanks.. =D

 

[A2ZOMG]

Falco sounds stupid as usual. Wrecking **** until he makes that mistake.

More importantly, I'm not seeing how Link really catches Fox. All I see he has in that matchup is those fastfaller combos and the Up-B edgeguard, while Fox can laser camp, and should he want to play offensively, there isn't much Link is doing to get out of that pressure. And then given that Link lost the tether to stage recovery, Fox is going to be shinespiking him quite a bit.

EDIT: Answered your question in Visitor Messages.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

You seem to have this misconception that "defense" means camping. And that a projectile is the only thing camping can be done with, for that matter.

Zelda's specialty is an active defense, forcing her opponents to approach, and then stuffing them with a powerful close range defense.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I'm with A2Z here, Link seems under-powered.

I'm not saying he is "bad", not even close, but if the characters could be divided into Top, High and Upper, he'd be at the bottom of Upper imo :/

 

[iLink]

I think Link is good in theory, but isn't quite up to par with the rest of the top tiers. Just my opinion.

 

[A2ZOMG]

You seem to have this misconception that "defense" means camping. And that a projectile is the only thing camping can be done with, for that matter.

Zelda's specialty is an active defense, forcing her opponents to approach, and then stuffing them with a powerful close range defense.

And wait, how does Zelda force an approach? If you're going to be playing defense, you have to be good at forcing approaches, which is generally best achieved if your character has some way of easily scoring cheap "chip" damage in some way. That isn't Zelda imo.

If all she's doing is waiting for people to get their approaches stuffed, that's going to lose really badly to anything that plays a better midrange game. Which is a lot of characters played patiently. Yeah her walls are good, but walling is not something that you really should be relying on in this game unless you're say...Fox and constantly getting free damage from laser camping and abusing B-air. Given Zelda's subpar poke game and the nature of her projectile, I don't see where she gets free damage playing defensively.

I strongly believe that what's going to make Zelda win matches that matter is how effectively she implements traps to BREAK defenses, not establish defenses. Zelda's projectile is amazing more offensively given how much freedom she has to move after putting it out, and poor defensively due to its lack of real threat on its own.

Now Dhalsim in Street Fighter 4 has an outstanding defensive game appropriate of the terminology you used for Zelda. He scores free chip damage all day that nobody can really stop, and thus EVERYONE has to try approaching past his walls at some point. Furthermore he has a poke game, which is good enough for him to actually score cheap hits without chipping people with his specials.

 

[Kati]

I have yet to read an agreeable post concerning Link by this guy, but concerning Zelda I would definitely consider what he is saying.

 

[Lolo_knight]

I think link has it hard now cuz half of the released characters are small.... against ganon/snake/marth i have not much trouble its the small characters that r hard to hit cuz LD. I do feel his recovery is a little bad and the grapple after up b idea is good, and about his projectiles... i feel em right?. It's time who will decide how good link is, and ppl that main him really good and find good comboes with him. As of now of the released characters I feel he is in the bottom, maybe with G&W BUT thats just HOW I feel.

 

[Xinc]

It probably isn't time to decide yet. The demo was recently released, wasn't it? So waiting would seem like a good idea...?

 

[shanus]

Reading these posts more, I have come to the thorough conclusion that A2Z does not know how to play as Link.

If people think he is underpowered, it is something I'm open to discuss. However, I think people who do not know how to play a character should not be the loud majority in trying to balance Link. Link players should be the one's who speak to his difficulties, and not the other way around. I truthfully dislike the level of analysis going on in here from a theoretical standpoint from players who are not link mains. It's like if I went into a BBrawl thread and complained about how Zelda plays without knowing how to play her well at all in the BBrawl engine, or really knowing the subtleties behind her gameplay.

 

[Xinc]

*cough* Burn...! Well said, Shanus.

 

[JoJoRockets52]

What is the point of balancing towards the top tier?

Wouldn't it make more sense to balance towards mid-tier?

 

[Soldner Kei]

just because a character isn't easy to play with dosen't mean it's bad... Link has always sucked in every smash game, in melee he was decent, but the top tiers where uber, and in brawl... well... it's brawl... still we managed to play with the character and we know it is hard to win MU againts Fox or MK(top tier in respective games not brawl's fox lol), but you can if you MAIN the goddamn character, you have a bomb, a rang, a bow and a freaking chain of pain as projectiles, you have swordplay, a couple gtfo move(usmash, upb, etc), what? Link it's combobait? well yes, but you know, you have bombs, ALWAYS hold a ****ing bomb to interrupt combos, you can space yourself pretty nicely, for recovery you have the glide bomb thingy, well sorta lol, and that was in melee too, you can gimp with arrows, spike with dtilt, semi spike with upb, edgeguarding with zair, as for killing moves, you can combo into dair, ftilt, upb, etc,etc,etc... of course I am talking about P:M Link

it's not the character that sucks, it's people playing with it
still I haven't play with Link that much against people irl, only wi-fi 8(...
but still, he is pretty decent, and I wasn't a well know Main, just another one on the Link boards since the migration to-you-know-where ;D

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

A2Z really just sounds like that whiny friend of yours that you had over that wasn't able to pick up a character that he likes and kick butt with in the first few matches and promptly rage quitted blaming everything around him instead of y'know, himself.. in fact it sounds like you got creamed by a top tier melee character (i'm going to guess falco or marth) and are taking it out on us because you're so used to the BBrawl universe and were upset we didn't use any of their awesome ideas (like mystery gift). This is all assumption of course, any inconsistencies I will fully take the blame for.

I've PLAYED link against a few really good melee players in my area, and I personally think that Link may be a little TOO buffed up. What a character can't do is just as important as what they can do, it really adds to their depth and makes them interesting to play, working against your weakness, nay making your weakness an asset is what makes the game fun.. I personally feel like Link may have lost too many of his weaknesses making him flow a lot better (I kind of liked the clunkiness..) But anyway, it sounds like A2Z lost a few matches expecting to own like he did Bbrawl and came immediately to the forums to lay out his grievances. Not only that we have people here rousing to support him because they probably played link for 2 matches and didn't fare too good as well.. I highly doubt many of you claiming link to be a bad character really took the time to PLAY him for more than say.. 10 matches. think about the amount of time it took to develop jiggs's gameplay before she was considered a decent character.

It's infinitely infuriating to have people so quickly judge a character "Oh yea, xxx is low mid tier." Really, who the **** are you to say that? Do you know how much tier lists change over YEARS and YEARS of gameplay? And you're making a judgment like this based on a few days of gameplay? Who knows how much farther melee link would have gotten in melee tourney wise (who by the way was high tier when the first few tier lists came out) had he received just a few minor tweaks! or how much so and so would have improved had they gotten 1 more frame on something. these things can go a long way! No offense but BRAWL has absolutely no place for basing your standards off of in a melee environment, it's just way too different. there are things you can and can't do in both games PERIOD. i'll spare you the tired comparisons between unrelated franchises to emphasize my point.... but anyway, leave petty non sequitur arguments behind if you want to convince anyone.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

I have an awesome new idea for a new rule that should totally be implemented: if you want to ***** about a character, post some vids of you playing. The technology is readily available and there will absolutely be no question who's right and who's wrong.

so many times i've seen a player who's complained and complained til the cows came home to finally snatch a glimpse at a few replays/vids that they so reluctantly posted for all those to see.. where a very swift conclusion of the true validity of their incessant complaints comes to light.

 

[kaizo13]

Reading these posts more, I have come to the thorough conclusion that A2Z does not know how to play as Link.

LOL about time

 

[GHNeko]

shanus *****

 

[shanus]

i don't mean to call people out, but its like, if you want your voice heard, it should be about characters you *really* know well. That's where you can provide insight and help everyone.

 

[GHNeko]

but shanus i watch a bunch of videos of snake and i played against a bunch of snakes in Brawl in TX and i friendly with him all the time!

i know what im talking about when it comes to snake!

 

[kaizo13]

sry for going off-topic but........this video made me think, "wtf have we done to Brawl?" lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwV07xrrVZQ

well not completely off-topic, he's starting to upload some P:M videos so if you want some japanese P:M footage, there ya go


P.S their Wi-fi looks flawless

 

[Xinc]

Super Saiyan 4 Goku is scary.

On a side-note, Sheik's D-throw CG works remarkably well against Link, Snake, and Ganon.

 

[standardtoaster]

Their wifi might look flawless because they're probably just recording replays like I do. lol

 

[Revven]

Well they're in Japan and since Brawl's WiFi is largely distance based... P2P. Japan is really small so places are really close together allowing for pretty optimal WiFi. Whereas in America? Everybody is a huge distance apart which affects connection greatly.

 

[ValTroX]

About time Shanus, I was getting tired of all the Link drama, when he is, indeed, a good character as of now. If you like BBrawl's Link, go play BBrawl. They never claimed that Link was a top tier, just that he stands a chance against melee top tiers, and he does. Also, there are character boards on Project:M official website, there's no need to flood the forum where general game stuff is discussed.

 

[JoJoRockets52]

What is the point of balancing towards the top tier?

Wouldn't it make more sense to balance towards mid-tier?

 

[Scufo]

The no-nerf policy is to avoid alienating top tier Melee players (which is most of them)

Edit: And also because we like the way the top tiers play in Melee

 

[Revven]

What is the point of balancing towards the top tier?

Wouldn't it make more sense to balance towards mid-tier?

Balancing towards mid-tier would mean nerfing the uppers which a lot of people are very content with how the uppers play. Nerfing them is not something we want to do. Balancing towards top makes more sense as we have a clearer view of what works and what doesn't work.

Edit: Ninja'd by Scufo.

 

[MonkUnit]

What is the point of balancing towards the top tier?

Wouldn't it make more sense to balance towards mid-tier?

My understanding is this; don't nerf the top tiers;fox, falco, jigglypuff, etc to match mid-tiers from melee; ganon, falcon, mario(?), etc. If you are to nerf the top tiers, you have changed what was done to keep them being their melee selves and that is a major turnoff for this product. It is better to buff mid tiers/low tiers to be able to stand up against the top tiers and still have chances at winning.

EDIT: double ninja'd by Falco400 and scufo lol

 

[JoJoRockets52]

Why would you not nerf characters isn't the point of project M to help renew the tourney scene. Top Melee players have been playing the game for like 10 years without much change (in the top tier). It's about time for there to be a new twist in the gameplay and tier list.

 

[Brian_Link]

The twist is that instead of knowing match-ups of about 5 characters, you need to know match-ups for about 20(Because unfortunately all 40 something can't be top tier).

 

[JoJoRockets52]

but just buffing characters won't change the match-up all to much. Maybe you have to avoid some new big damage combo's, but that doesn't change the match-up move a still beats move b. If you change the tier list drastically the whole metagame changes and new characters become viable instead of older one still being played. If i was a really good falco in SSBM why would i change characters when he is still top tier?

 

[Revven]

I think you're missing the point, the characters low-tier or mid-tier could play completely differently if their style just didn't work out at all in Melee (see: Bowser). As a result, new counters could exist. There's just some characters' playstyles that don't need a complete overhaul like Link's because they already had something going for them, they just need that extra push. Someone like DK however needs something new besides just buffing his usual moves.

You're acting like we're just going to buff everyone the same way, we're not. We look at each character individually and pay attention to what their weaknesses are and what something new could do for them (if it's needed). Then there's the Brawl characters too that are being redone or fitted into the environment who could pose as new threats that could cause that Falco player to pick up a secondary.

 

[Brian_Link]

Well in answer to your question, if you are really good with Falco in Melee, you probably would be pissed if your Falco couldn't do what he could before. People typically get far more upset at the loss of options than the addition of options. And since the primary market for this mod is Melee fans, and a good amount of Melee fans play top/high tier characters, a bunch of people who could enjoy this mod wouldn't play it for more than a set.

Part of the fun of smash comes from pulling off complicated stuff and getting rewarded for it. If you lose the reward for complicated stuff, well then its not as fun. If you give the rewards to more characters, its more fun in general. Wow that sounded like Sakurai...

And from what I've played, Space Animals do not completely dominate anymore. The only reason I believe that it was a Falco(iirc) that won Pound 5 is that people already know how to play Falco. The (hopefully) former lower tier characters don't have that exact knowledge and experience yet. But I think that give it 6 months, and you can see Link, Lucas, G&W, etc. being top three in P:M tourneys.

 

[MonkUnit]

Well in answer to your question, if you are really good with Falco in Melee, you probably would be pissed if your Falco couldn't do what he could before. People typically get far more upset at the loss of options than the addition of options. And since the primary market for this mod is Melee fans, and a good amount of Melee fans play top/high tier characters, a bunch of people who could enjoy this mod wouldn't play it for more than a set.

Part of the fun of smash comes from pulling off complicated stuff and getting rewarded for it. If you lose the reward for complicated stuff, well then its not as fun. If you give the rewards to more characters, its more fun in general. Wow that sounded like Sakurai...

And from what I've played, Space Animals do not completely dominate anymore. The only reason I believe that it was a Falco(iirc) that won Pound 5 is that people already know how to play Falco. The (hopefully) former lower tier characters don't have that exact knowledge and experience yet. But I think that give it 6 months, and you can see Link, Lucas, G&W, etc. being top three in P:M tourneys.

It was Vanz who won the Project M Demo tournament. He won with Fox.

 

[Brian_Link]

It was Vanz who won the Project M Demo tournament. He won with Fox.

Still a Space Animal. So my point isn't exactly invalidated. But thanks for the correction.