Project M Social Thread

[metaXzero]

In Melee's cycle.

Sheik was OP, then Fox was OP, then Marth was OP, then Fox and Falco were OP, now Jiggs is OP.

lol. But seriously, I recall that the top tiers and high tiers of Melee were the ones who would be replicated exactly.

 

[genkaku]

I don't mean to be antagonistic, but if you nerf puff, you can go ahead and nerf the rest of the top tiers, please.

 

[I R MarF]

Bair hitbox should still be disjointed, it doesn't need the magnitude it had in melee, but a little disjoint would allow Jiggs to somewhat retain her playstyle despite the nerf; making it an easier transition for melee players.

Rest should be a little weaker.

Jiggs should also be a bit more challenged in P:M. She lacks a real counter in Melee (albeit, Fox has an advantage over her but its very slight) and ironically I think the best counter should/could be MK. He has the advantage of a high priority sword (giving him naturally better range) and due to his weak attacks in conjunction with his multiple jumps he could effectively combo jiggs and maybe pose a threat to her aerial game. However, I am looking at this from a statistic perspective.

 

[metaXzero]

Doesn't Fox also lack a real counter in Melee? And when does 3 players equal dominating and unchallenged? Wasn't Marth at one point "dominating" via 3 players? And Fox with IDK how many...

 

[GP&B]

I'm pretty sure combo characters have an absolute ball with Fox's fall speed and light weight. It doesn't make those match-ups heavily in their favor, but Fox's vulnerability means following Isai's advice of "Don't Get Hit" **** well.

 

[OverLade]

The problem, isn't not having a counter, the problem is having strategies that are effective regardless of skill level.

MK is a problem in brawl because he's the best character at every skill level for every reason. If you camp, he's still the best, if you're aggro, he's still the best. If you suck, he's still the best, if you're the best player he's still the best. On every stage, he's the best character.

Most of the above is true for Jiggs but obviously to a lesser extent. Jiggs can still plank, bair camp, and rest people at 15% even if you're a crappy player, that's the problem. People don't want a character that's gay without that gayness being earned by the player etc...

Edit:
If you're good you can combo fox, but you can't combo jiggs just because you're good etc. It's Jiggs and Fox is almost a direct correlation to MK and Snake.

Fox and Snake are really difficult to learn and apply, and get combo'd easily by the majority of the cast. But at the highest level they're still the 2nd best character. MK and Jiggs are both difficult to deal successful damage to regardless of how light they are, have effective strats that require little skill and are good on every stage...

 

[metaXzero]

I'm pretty sure combo characters have an absolute ball with Fox's fall speed and light weight.

Yet last time I checked, he has the tools to more then make up for that in most match-ups so that he's not disadvantaged.

Jiggs has her own weakness with how light she is doesn't she?

What exactly happened to Jiggs that suddenly made her better then Fox, Marth, Sheik, and Falco that she NEEDS a nerf? Because all I've seen is 3 players utilizing what we've known she's always had to their fullest.

 

[TL?]

I don't think puff needs to be nerfed too much. Her strengths just exploit the top tiers in melee's weaknesses(high gravity easy to combo, or weak recovery). What happens when jiggs has to face a viable kirby or MK?

 

[metaXzero]

But how can we justify nerfing puff and not the entire top tier melee line again?

 

[ICHIGOBLEACH]

I'm pretty sure combo characters have an absolute ball with Fox's fall speed and light weight. It doesn't make those match-ups heavily in their favor, but Fox's vulnerability means following Isai's advice of "Don't Get Hit" **** well.

oh, you're pretty sure huh? it's common knowledge that fox can get the **** combo out of him but he easi;y has the tools to make up for any of that

The problem, isn't not having a counter, the problem is having strategies that are effective regardless of skill level.

MK is a problem in brawl because he's the best character at every skill level for every reason. If you camp, he's still the best, if you're aggro, he's still the best. If you suck, he's still the best, if you're the best player he's still the best. On every stage, he's the best character.

Most of the above is true for Jiggs but obviously to a lesser extent. Jiggs can still plank, bair camp, and rest people at 15% even if you're a crappy player, that's the problem. People don't want a character that's gay without that gayness being earned by the player etc...

Edit:
If you're good you can combo fox, but you can't combo jiggs just because you're good etc. It's Jiggs and Fox is almost a direct correlation to MK and Snake.

Fox and Snake are really difficult to learn and apply, and get combo'd easily by the majority of the cast. But at the highest level they're still the 2nd best character. MK and Jiggs are both difficult to deal successful damage to regardless of how light they are, have effective strats that require little skill and are good on every stage...

no, jiggs is only overpowered in teams, you can combo jiggs, fox and snake aren't hard to learn but they can be hard to apply. you're just wrong
also at above poster: there isn't

 

[MacKellarTeam1]

oh, you're pretty sure huh? it's common knowledge that fox can get the **** combo out of him but he easi;y has the tools to make up for any of that

no, jiggs is only overpowered in teams, you can combo jiggs, fox and snake aren't hard to learn but they can be hard to apply. you're just wrong
also at above poster: there isn't

... Applying is a majour part in learning a character... but if Jiggs is kept the same as she is in melee, I think a counter will emerge (like a viable pikachu).

 

[hotdogturtle]

But how can we justify nerfing puff and not the entire top tier melee line again?

You can't.

 

[Plum]

This is my stance on Jigglypuff, and what I hope will be the official stance of the PMBR (it's what I think is the best way that a character like Jiggs can be handled).
Note however that my opinion is by no means the actual opinion of the PMBR... Also, as a tangent of that, take EVERYTHING you see in this thread from a PMBR member with a grain of salt unless that person is Shanus pretty much. So if one PMBR member says something it is by no means what the rest of the PMBR will think.

So Jiggs... There is absolutely no reason to not recreate her in every way possible. Her Bair should be disjointed (it isn't even THAT disjointed considering how disjointed moves get in Melee) and her Rest should be equally as powerful. Her mobility should be that good. EVERYTHING should be replicated.
Assuming every other character in the game is brought up to a certain degree of viability that means that Jiggs will have to deal with a multitude of characters that she never had to bother with in Melee.

For all we know a character like Ike will just look at Jiggs and say "lol disjointed power" to the point where he can get over his weak recovery.
We just have no idea on how Melee Jiggs will compare to the rest of the cast once everyone is brought up to a general level of satisfaction. A counter or two could come up, and until we know that preemptively nerfing her isn't a good idea. /imo

 

[ICHIGOBLEACH]

good **** plum

 

[FrozenHobo]

oh, you're pretty sure huh? it's common knowledge that fox can get the **** combo out of him but he easi;y has the tools to make up for any of that

no, jiggs is only overpowered in teams, you can combo jiggs, fox and snake aren't hard to learn but they can be hard to apply. you're just wrong
also at above poster: there isn't

wait... how can you be so sure of these things when you're not in the beta?

 

[OverLade]

no, jiggs is only overpowered in teams, you can combo jiggs, fox and snake aren't hard to learn but they can be hard to apply. you're just wrong
also at above poster: there isn't

LOL are you trolling? And theres no way you're any good at melee or brawl so stfu...

 

[ICHIGOBLEACH]

wait... how can you be so sure of these things when you're not in the beta?

i do this crazy thing called playing the games he was talking about
it's pretty cool
also redhalberd you mad cause you wrong?

 

[FrozenHobo]

ah, but do you play them well?

 

[Gindler]

And yoshi's keeping his (optional) rising aerials i presume? BadA dsmash too?

 

[ICHIGOBLEACH]

ah, but do you play them well?

sure I know enough about them
but here I'll explain my thoughts
jiggs is VERY good in teams, good enough to the point where she couls be considered slightly OP
snake is easy to learn imo but difficult to play at a high level, as is fox. A bad fox is the worst character in the game haha
and gindler, you can do an aerial without djc'ing

 

[FrozenHobo]

just going to point out that you're comparing characters from two games that play completely different. on top of that, you're trying to use this as an example for a third game that plays similar to one, but with newly edited characters from another...

am i the only one seeing the major flaw here?

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

So, is there like a weekly quota of people absolutely losing their **** that has to be fulfilled in this thread?

Or do you guys just do it for fun?

 

[ICHIGOBLEACH]

just going to point out that you're comparing characters from two games that play completely different. on top of that, you're trying to use this as an example for a third game that plays similar to one, but with newly edited characters from another...

am i the only one seeing the major flaw here?

see redhalberd's post
that was what i was replying to
see the flaw in your logic?
talk to him not me haha

 

[OverLade]

sure I know enough about them
but here I'll explain my thoughts
jiggs is VERY good in teams, good enough to the point where she couls be considered slightly OP
snake is easy to learn imo but difficult to play at a high level, as is fox. A bad fox is the worst character in the game haha
and gindler, you can do an aerial without djc'ing

The problem is, you're just saying stuff and expecting people to believe it without backing it up with data or trends, or even individual scenarios. How is Jiggs OP in teams? I have never heard anyone say anything like that nor have I seen videos that support it.

And Snake ISN'T easy to learn that just proves how little you know about this game. He's probably the 2nd or 3rd hardest character to learn and the hardest character to apply. And a Bad Snake is almost as bad as a bad Fox. You're just spitting stuff out like you know what you're talking about but it mostly just sounds random.

The problem isn't Jiggs being broken it's jiggs being stupidly designed. Randomly giving a character a 1 frame move that kills in 1 hit is stupid. Giving MK a tornado that beats almost every move in the game, and can even be spaced to beat the moves that are supposed to beat it directly is stupid design. I'm not worried about Jiggs being broken in project M, I'm worried about the experience of the game not being ruined by gimmicky characters (like brawl is).

Anyways no point in arguing, more data needs to be collected as far as what's really good in project M...

 

[iLink]

I don't even mind as much that bair has that much range as much as it basically having an invisible hitbox. Could the foot be extended as far as the hitbox and just make that part invulnerable?

 

[ICHIGOBLEACH]

The problem is, you're just saying stuff and expecting people to believe it without backing it up with data or trends, or even individual scenarios. How is Jiggs OP in teams? I have never heard anyone say anything like that nor have I seen videos that support it.

And Snake ISN'T easy to learn that just proves how little you know about this game. He's probably the 2nd or 3rd hardest character to learn and the hardest character to apply. And a Bad Snake is almost as bad as a bad Fox. You're just spitting stuff out like you know what you're talking about but it mostly just sounds random.

The problem isn't Jiggs being broken it's jiggs being stupidly designed. Randomly giving a character a 1 frame move that kills in 1 hit is stupid. Giving MK a tornado that beats almost every move in the game, and can even be spaced to beat the moves that are supposed to beat it directly is stupid design. I'm not worried about Jiggs being broken in project M, I'm worried about the experience of the game not being ruined by gimmicky characters (like brawl is).

Anyways no point in arguing, more data needs to be collected as far as what's really good in project M...

what do i need to back up my statements
there obvious facts
i can find arguments/videos if you wish but it's just wasting both of out times
some simple things though: automatic saves(u-air/pound mostly), partner can save you from rest lag, EASY combo's into rest, easy edgeguards. I mean you must be an idiot to not see it
save for snake, i personally think he's easy to pick up
but I only played brawl for a little while so whatever on that one
and who are you to call people out on skill level
my point still remains, you don't know much about what you're talking about

 

[Anth0ny]

The problem isn't Jiggs being broken it's jiggs being stupidly designed. Randomly giving a character a 1 frame move that kills in 1 hit is stupid.

you say this like it's easy to do

with nado, you're usually either getting the damage, or retreating safely if the opponent shields. with rest, it's high risk/high reward. if you **** that rest up, you're eating a fully charged smash, or worse.

inb4 "its just upthrow>rest"

if the fox/falco/whoever is a better player than the jiggs, they won't get grabbed and ***** by rest.

if the jiggs is mango, hbox or darc, then yes, they'll put you in the position of getting rested at a low percentage, no matter who you are.

people in this thread seem to thing that jiggs is able to do all this stuff real easy. it's not easy to perfectly rest bairs, despite it's ridiculous hitbox. it's not easy to land rests!

puff is not on the same level as MK in brawl. not even close.

if puff is changed at all from her melee incarnation, I'll be really disappointed.

 

[OverLade]

what do i need to back up my statements
there obvious facts
i can find arguments/videos if you wish but it's just wasting both of out times
some simple things though: automatic saves(u-air/pound mostly), partner can save you from rest lag, EASY combo's into rest, easy edgeguards. I mean you must be an idiot to not see it
save for snake, i personally think he's easy to pick up
but I only played brawl for a little while so whatever on that one
and who are you to call people out on skill level

Auto saves? Falco can save people with lasers? Jiggs is good in doubles obviously, but saying she's more OP in doubles than singles doesn't make sense... Jiggs has simple reads into rest (just resets etc) in singles, and it only takes on correct read to pull them off.

LOL@the last statement I stay callin people out on skill level 500$ MM melee or brawl or gtfo

See me at Pound 5 son.

 

[ClinkStryphart]

I say for Jiggs just nerf her priority on her (>B) puff move that is if its at all possible. No need to nerf rest etc. I do have faith in the devs though and hope that something will be done to her.

Also on a note about characters. Is there gonna be a way for you guys to remove ZSS's armor that drops off of her when the match starts?

another note also is I understand that Falco besides Lucas at the moment are the current most done characters well from the smash mods site. Now I was watching some of the videos of Falco being played and while he seems like a great on stage character I noticed that his >B looks like its falling short. Is the player doing that or is it gonna be adjusted due to that could be one real turn off.

I mean granted I know the rule great characters on stage should have a terrible comeback but those vids make it seem like Falco has 0 comeback at all or rather he has to recover at a certain point. I do understand that alot of characters need fixes and while i don't have the project its just from what I speculated from the videos.

 

[iLink]

I say for Jiggs just nerf her priority on her (>B) puff move that is if its at all possible. No need to nerf rest etc. I do have faith in the devs though and hope that something will be done to her.

Also on a note about characters. Is there gonna be a way for you guys to remove ZSS's armor that drops off of her when the match starts?

another note also is I understand that Falco besides Lucas at the moment are the current most done characters well from the smash mods site. Now I was watching some of the videos of Falco being played and while he seems like a great on stage character I noticed that his >B looks like its falling short. Is the player doing that or is it gonna be adjusted due to that could be one real turn off.

I mean granted I know the rule great characters on stage should have a terrible comeback but those vids make it seem like Falco has 0 comeback at all or rather he has to recover at a certain point. I do understand that alot of characters need fixes and while i don't have the project its just from what I speculated from the videos.

Why nerf pound of all things? It would be pretty meh without the priority. Also Falco had a pretty terrible recovery in melee as well which is fine considering he can dominate pretty well on stage.

 

[ICHIGOBLEACH]

ok your an idiot no use arguing with you but I'm bored so I'll leave you with food for thought
1-jiggs isn't OP in singles, there are 3 top jiggs players and mango hardly plays her, save for teams
2-falco's lasers are a good save too, but he's nowhere near as good as jiggs in teams. Can his lasers chase you below the stage to save you? honestly why did you even bring them up? jiggs is way to good at saves
3-ahh just resets? cool story bro
4-in doubles she has all of her options to rest people that she has in singles so why bring that up
5-she doesn't need to read **** if your partners there to help you get rests as: one grab=rest, they can wake you up if you miss(not really much time to punish in teams anyway ie. ganons not gonna get that warlock punch in), and they(as well as your opponents) can send people into the air for extremely easy rest set ups
and a quote from m2k on teams
"Fox Puff is god, and Mango thinks Puff should be banned in teams (I am not joking, he said that to me in person at Apex).
Fox Fox might be the 2nd best, maybe, or a different team with a Puff"
from this thread http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=283109&page=2
ok you lose now

 

[ClinkStryphart]

I'm not really asking to have it nefred but maybe get rid of its linger or reduce the amount of damage it does to a shield. Currently in B+ it wrecks shields almost as bad as Marths shield breaker + has linger so even if you dodge it you still get hit by it. Again thats in B+ I hope the devs do something to better balance out the move. I wouldn't really care about its priorty then.

I know falco had a terrible recovery in melee. I just like his >B in Brawl well rather B+ better due to it gives a distinct difference between him and fox.

Again though I trust the devs and keep up the great work.

Edit: Any chance in anymore characters getting uploaded to the smashmods site that are completed? j/w its been forever since we the audience have seen any updates to the site regarding characters.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

can you guys stop talking to ICHIGOBLEACHNARUTOWHATEVER so that i don't have to look at his horrible posts anymore?

 

[ICHIGOBLEACH]

can you guys stop talking to ICHIGOBLEACHNARUTOWHATEVER so that i don't have to look at his horrible posts anymore?

how the **** was my last post horrible
did you even read it *******

 

[Archangel]

It's obvious what to do about puff. Just reduce her ability to kill via rest as easy. I'm not saying make it like Luigi's UpB was in melee. That or make it so that Resting in teams kills them and your partner.

Why are people talking about nerfing her Bair, Pound...etc. If anything I think people should start working on buffs for puff to make up for the inevitable nerf to her rest.

@ Ichigobleach Why do you insist on making everyone hate you. Do you plan on going to tournaments ever or no?

 

[ICHIGOBLEACH]

It's obvious what to do about puff. Just reduce her ability to kill via rest as easy. I'm not saying make it like Luigi's UpB was in melee. That or make it so that Resting in teams kills them and your partner.

Why are people talking about nerfing her Bair, Pound...etc. If anything I think people should start working on buffs for puff to make up for the inevitable nerf to her rest.

@ Ichigobleach Why do you insist on making everyone hate you. Do you plan on going to tournaments ever or no?

i don't see the need for nerfs
but why are people so mad about me arguing w/ redhalberd
he was wrong, read his post the one about mk/snake=jiggs/fox lol
I'm not trying to make people hate me but i can if you want

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

no ones mad at you, except for me of course, because i can't stand your post formatting. but the difference between you and him is that redhalberd has played PM, and you haven't, not only that, he has the tourney experience to back up his claims and any idiot would be more willing to accept his opinion over some random dude on smashboards named after one of the worst cartoons ever conceived.

why don't u try some easy tips to get people to respect your opinion:
1. name urself something not as stupid.
2. take english100 again and learn how to structure a sentence and a paragraph
3. upload some vids of urself playing to prove that u know what ure talking about

that's not so bad is it

now chop chop

lol

i can see how this
post
formatting can be
rather
alluring

 

[ICHIGOBLEACH]

what im saying has nothing at all to do with skill levels of myself or others. sorry you don't like my post formatting on a ****ing video game forum. but did you read his post about mk/snake=jiggs/fox? any idiot would no that's just dumb

Spoiler

but
i'm not
gonna stop
so lol
gotcha

 

[Hellsinglover999]

why jiggs is broken in teams

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-sb6EWoPUY

 

[Archangel]

what im saying has nothing at all to do with skill levels of myself or others. sorry you don't like my post formatting on a ****ing video game forum. but did you read his post about mk/snake=jiggs/fox? any idiot would no that's just dumb

Actually he's kind of telling the truth. Although the characters/games are pretty different the way the match up's turn out seems to be pretty much the same. The difference is I give fox a slightly better shot at beating puff although in a year I may feel differently.