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Project M Social Thread

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leelue

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I've been posting here 2 days and already I see who makes sense, who is a lunatic, who is argumentative, and who is touchy. Well, maybe.

I read a lot of posts by a man named Mark Rosewater, a game designer. Strong bad's admission is similar to what Marks followers already know, but its nice to see that out in the open anyway
 

Grim Tuesday

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I've been posting here 2 days and already I see who makes sense, who is a lunatic, who is argumentative, and who is touchy. Well, maybe.

I read a lot of posts by a man named Mark Rosewater, a game designer. Strong bad's admission is similar to what Marks followers already know, but its nice to see that out in the open anyway
Am I the argumentative one? :3
 

Cubelarooso

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Great ideas that won't be included unless there is a direct benefit in doing so...
I think the pit-jump would be be a useful addition. It could help DK go out just a bit farther when edgeguarding, allowing him to better capitalize on his formidable horizontal recovery. It could even allow the roll itself to be used for edgeguarding.
Diddy could also be given this ability, so the work of programming it would have double the yield.

It's called development priorities. We could spend hundreds of man hours coming up with and implementing the dozens of ideas that sound really cool on paper but utterly screw with the game in ways we don't intend, or we could approach things a bit more realistically.
As for Link's Hidden Skills, they probably wouldn't mess with the game too much if just used a standard A attacks (or as dodges for his backflip, roll, and sidestep; or change his idle animation while holding item (you know what I mean)), and wouldn't even necessarily require attributes new attributes. Heck, they added an upgrade to the jump attack that has two hits, perfect for his f-smash!
But, animation takes work, and it's probably better left to someone more specialized in it, so as not to waste you guys' programming expertise.



I'm not a fan of making the Dees disappear on the ground. That removes something that makes the attack unique, moving more making it more like just another laser. If anything, they should stick around longer.
Rather than having Dedede control them, just make them smarter with their attacks. If the King has to take time out to give a command, a can't very well use them as a distraction.
A possible change for the move could be to make it so that Dedede can just drop a Waddle in front of him, with less lag than actually throwing them. This would make them better at blocking attacks against their master, and would make positioning them as obstacles onstage easier. It could be triggered by tapping, rather than holding, B, or by shield/jump canceling the move.
Other changes: remove the Dees' random tripping/stupidity, remove Dedede's throwing of items (to make the item settings less picky), and remove throwing nearby minions with A.

One thing his down-B needs is a quicker uncharged hit. It could also be given a horizontal boost, a la Minus, but, as others have mentioned, he doesn't really need more recovery, not to mention the counter-intuitiveness of pressing down to go sideways.

Neutral-B could give spat opponents knockback and damage upon striking someone, making it a useful move on teams. You could also make the spitting distance scale with damage, though that might be OP.
 

Shadic

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New animations require many more hours of many power than programming in PSA. And we have about 5x more people who are competent in PSA than are competent in animating.
 

leelue

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The neutral B for DDD isnt inherently flawed. It's a midair grab, with suicidal tendencies. I don't see why there has been so much discussion on changing it and the waddles in silly, gimmicky, or unneeded ways. The waddles aren't So bad, and the team has a lot of straightforward solutions for it at their disposal. Lag reduction. Better AI (aw suggested numerous times) Whatever.

The down B, is obviously bad. I've suggested the natural solution of letting the player hold the charge, in a way we all know via DK.

Dammit... I need to stop commenting on issues I complain about other people commenting about
 

kaizo13

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i seems like.....u guys got fox's up-b and side-b at the correct lengths now. you also fixed the shine's momentum?!

2freakengood

and is that......a japanese fox i hear? :o


EDIT: for the first time, i'm gonna beg for a Project M beta.....

can i have it plz? :C
 

B.W.

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No matter what changes happen I think it's mostly agreed upon that every move still needs some bit of altering.

I wouldn't be for Dees and Doos disappearing either honestly, if that was the case you might as well make it another generic projectile. Dees and Doos are unique in the sense they stay out and pester and the fact they can do that really helps DDD's defensive game and can help keep him a defensive character. They just need to be altered to either be fixed on doing a single thing constantly or they need to just be made smarter. They don't have to stay out for an overly long amount of time and you could limit the amount on the screen to maybe three at once making the oldest Waddle disappear when the new one comes out.

I still think side-B should just get rid of the random factor period by making tilts and smashes Dees and Doos. To make both worth using you'd just have to make Dees have something about the way they hit that's worth throwing them out. That way they can work like Samus's missiles but with different effects. This way they could also assist in DDD's combo game somehow, cause DDD is slow but he'll have something good that's unique to him. He's unique from DK and Bowser I say we should keep him that way.

As for Down-B, it's hard to say what to do with it. I guess you could make it have a holdable charge like DK but I think it may be one move he has that could actually be worth changing. Same for his Swallow, unless Swallow can end up doing something good aside from swallowcide and just spitting out your enemy to do nothing. Like I said before Kirby can swallowcide already but he also has the option of getting a potentially good move too. I said before maybe DDD could gain the ability to swallow projectiles and spit them out as a star so he can pretty much tell projectile spammers that running and shooting/throwing isn't gonna work. Maybe make the stars travel a good distance and do more damage than the one he swallowed.
 

Knips

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I honestly think down-b and inhale barely need to be changed at all. A down-b that could be charged and held like DK or even an unchanged one could be a potent edgeguarding tool, and a sped up inhale would do wonders for DeDeDe's approach and defensive game as well.

On a different tangent; is Pikachu keeping the ability to quick attack cancel?
 

jalued

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I honestly think down-b and inhale barely need to be changed at all. A down-b that could be charged and held like DK or even an unchanged one could be a potent edgeguarding tool, and a sped up inhale would do wonders for DeDeDe's approach and defensive game as well.

On a different tangent; is Pikachu keeping the ability to quick attack cancel?
definately yes
 

Eternal Yoshi

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New animations require many more hours of many power than programming in PSA. And we have about 5x more people who are competent in PSA than are competent in animating.
Yes. Especially when it comes to G&W.

MY GOD! The Interloping........

While the new modset does make things faster, it still takes a while.
I still need to build up my animating skills so I can help with Mewtwo and reanimate most of Gray Fox's moveset.
 

Revven

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i seems like.....u guys got fox's up-b and side-b at the correct lengths now. you also fixed the shine's momentum?!

2freakengood

and is that......a japanese fox i hear? :o


EDIT: for the first time, i'm gonna beg for a Project M beta.....

can i have it plz? :C
Japanese Fox is only for moi because I edited my ISO ;p.
 

*P*L*U*R*

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Yes. Especially when it comes to G&W.

MY GOD! The Interloping........

While the new modset does make things faster, it still takes a while.
I still need to build up my animating skills so I can help with Mewtwo and reanimate most of Gray Fox's moveset.
While the new modset does make things faster, it still takes a while.
I still need to build up my animating skills so I can help with Mewtwo and reanimate most of Gray Fox's moveset.
I still need to build up my animating skills so I can help with Mewtwo and reanimate most of Gray Fox's moveset.
I can help with Mewtwo and reanimate most of Gray Fox's moveset.
reanimate most of Gray Fox's moveset.







In other news, Bowser never ceases to impress me
 

Sagen du Smash

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Hey guys, is Buffer currently present in Project M? Because Melee has a much higher learning curve than Brawl, and thus that feature really helped me in learning Melee style characters in Brawl+, such as Fox.
 

Cubelarooso

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They don't have to stay out for an overly long amount of time and you could limit the amount on the screen to maybe three at once making the oldest Waddle disappear when the new one comes out.
Dedede can only have two minions out in vBrawl.

If you're able to hold the charge, what's the point in being able to move while charging?
Rather, what if Dedede were able to shield cancel it, and thus not need to go through with its lag, players could start charging during any lull as a precaution, without having to commit.

New animations require many more hours of many power than programming in PSA. And we have about 5x more people who are competent in PSA than are competent in animating.
That's what I'm saying, programming and testing is a better use of your time and abilities.
Though a polishing stage between the beta and gold release would be nice.
 

Vigilante

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Well, Sagen, I have to say, Brawl + is very dissimilar to Melee, so Project M will be much faster and harder to master.

What I'd suggest is to practice using Melee. You'll ge tmore out of it than if you'd use Brawl + to practice, I think. I hear the transition from Melee to Project M takes some time getting used to, but not much.

Another good way to train is to practice wavedash, fastfall, L-Cancel in training mode, and short hop as your four first advanced techniquesOnce you got them mastered, you got the main points ready, and you can start mastering the rest.

As for Dedede, it's hard to tell what to do with him because he doesn't even naturally fit into his own game.
 

Slashy

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I was thinking, maybe hitbox on thrown Waddle Doo's could have lots of hitlag and shieldstun if possible, this would give Dedede a good opportunity to approach if need be. Down taunt could make all of the Waddle Dee/Doos change direction, this would make taunt canceling useful for Dedede players..
 

leelue

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@ cubelarooso
I don't see how it could be so bad to have him be able to move around and charge. Yes, it does give him a leg up on the other charge characters, but I am firmly under the belief that uniqueness is something healthy.

Even if he can shield cancel it, grabbing works, he has a limited number of options, and his movement is dropped. Of course, the development team has to test for fairness, but as a concept it seems solid

Sorry, my phone doesn't allow me to go into the edit screen. I wanted to correct my phrasing from before, and clarify that you can grab him out of his charge if being able to use the shield out of your hammer charge was a potential argument against my point of view.

Sorry about the double post, guys
 

Slashy

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Hey what about allowing Dedede to suck and blow, you can control whether you suck or blow depending on which direction you have the stick pointed in during his neutral special. This can allow him to move his minions around much more easily. There is no reason why Dedede should suck his minions, so we should remove that ability.
 

Knips

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Hey what about allowing Dedede to suck and blow, you can control whether you suck or blow depending on which direction you have the stick pointed in during his neutral special. This can allow him to move his minions around much more easily. There is no reason why Dedede should suck his minions, so we should remove that ability.
I'm just curious, can you elaborate on what this would accomplish?
 

Slashy

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It would make his neutral special useful in spacing, since he can influence his opponent's position on a stage at any time, as well as giving him to have an ability in gimping opponents. Dedede would also be able to control his minions' position on stage by sucking them in or blowing them away.
 

Archangel

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Hey what about allowing Dedede to suck and blow, you can control whether you suck or blow depending on which direction you have the stick pointed in during his neutral special. This can allow him to move his minions around much more easily. There is no reason why Dedede should suck his minions, so we should remove that ability.
Really......c'mon man...really?
 

Knips

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I definitely think that using it for spacing would have its merits, but it would have to have a pretty strong wind effect to do so, as well as be sped up, which I already have posted about. I also personally feel that controlling minions with it would be very difficult and possibly even detrimental to DeDeDe's gameplay in general, but I guess we'd just have to see if it worked or not to definitively tell.
 

Knips

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I'm just not seeing it being effective enough without requiring vast amounts of buffs, and I'm not sure even then if it would be used enough to warrant messing with it, not to mention the possibilities of doing side-b when trying to use it would definitely have to be considered.
 

Cubelarooso

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I don't see how it could be so bad to have him be able to move around and charge. Yes, it does give him a leg up on the other charge characters, but I am firmly under the belief that uniqueness is something healthy.

Even if he can shield cancel it, grabbing works, he has a limited number of options, and his movement is dropped. Of course, the development team has to test for fairness, but as a concept it seems solid
You got me backwards: I'm saying being able to hold the charge would remove the purpose of being able to move while charging, and I was suggesting shield-cancelability (but losing the charge) as a possible change.
 

hotdogturtle

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I think there should be some sort of dojo post on Wario... Because I feel like I still don't get some of his new moves >_>

Oh, but I do love whoever programmed his new side-B. It looks like it moves exactly like it does in the GB games. <3

Also, that uthrow chaingrab on Fox was hot.
 

leelue

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@ him again

Oh, I see your point now.

I still see merit in being able to move around though. Being mobile is always better than not being mobile. I know I keep saying that I dislike silly submissions, but what if he moved noticeably faster when charging, instead of slower?
Does anybody (or you since we are having this conversation) think this could be interesting?

OH I just understood. I thought you meant "stand still but store with the shield" like DK. Am I right in saying you meant just cancelling it so you aren't committed?

Damn I feel slow
 

Archangel

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There are some things in PM that I was wondering about as far as the inconstant moves. Moves like Luigi's Side-B, Peach's Stitch/Bomb/Beam, G&W's hammer....etc

Will moves like that be revamped and made to be constant moves or left the same or will they be left alone and more of them added like DDD's Spike thing or something?

Personally I think they should be Constants rather then inconstants just because it feel too...lucky..or unlucky. It has a certain element similar to the trip. Except it's not universal.
 

hotdogturtle

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There are some things in PM that I was wondering about as far as the inconstant moves. Moves like Luigi's Side-B, Peach's Stitch/Bomb/Beam, G&W's hammer....etc

Will moves like that be revamped and made to be constant moves or left the same or will they be left alone and more of them added like DDD's Spike thing or something?

Personally I think they should be Constants rather then inconstants just because it feel too...lucky..or unlucky. It has a certain element similar to the trip. Except it's not universal.
The entire purpose of those moves is that sometimes they're good and sometimes they're not, so you're taking risk for either a huge payoff or nothing at all.

(Well, except for Peach, where it's either good or great.)
 
G

genkaku

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Spam, they've already said multiple times that they're going to leave core elements in place regarding Peach and G&W.
Screwing with Peach's turnips is a bad idea. There are a lot of Peach mains that depend on random stitches and will go so far as to john when they don't get any, so removing it will be detrimental to her play. At the same time, making it predictable is an instant S tier buff. Can you imagine fighting a Peach that knows when a stitchface is coming? Scary stuff.
G&W, I dunno, I guess JC just likes him a lot as is, haha. Personally I like the 9 hammer as is because it's such a high risk coupled with such a high reward.
Luigi's misfire is a little different, but changing it is justified because he's... not so great as is. And honestly a predictable misfire isn't as scary as a stitch or 9 hammer.
 

leelue

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I think both ideas have pros and cons. I'm sure if the development team felt like it, they could test them both. Yours feels more technical, melee-esque. Mine feels more natural, and familiar.
To me at least.

Hell, they may even go so far as to let you do both. Shield cancel unless its fully charged, in which case you hold it.

I like that. Good tension
 
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