Project M Social Thread

[shanus]

Basically Ness' Brawl+ zap jump was basically his double jump with a huge amount of forward momentum;however, the momentum boost was not as excessive as what Lucas received.

Please do not compare this to Brawl+. You were likely playing with the largely unaltered Ness build at the time. If you ever find a pac that plays like B+ in our final build, I'll be disappointed.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

We cannot show anything until it's 100% done (that includes animation work). Sorry, but you'll have to be very patient for awhile as we only have so many people that are familiar with animating in BrawlBox.

That's partly why I'm slowly improving with animations.


I can imagine Oli being a PITA to edit.

 

[Xedi]

It however is not very well designed for how the move is used in high level play. Go watch some Melee Sheik high level players and see how they use needles. If they worked the way they do in Brawl, it would definitely mess people up on edgeguarding and take longer to throw a few needles out. The charge mechanic for her needles was better in Melee.

Yes, fair enough. What about Link's charge?

 

[Slashy]

I really liked Dedede despite being virtually unchanged. His absurd range makes him really good against projectileless characters, he can even wreck Fox if the Fox player tries to get aggressive..

 

[Shadic]

Yes, fair enough. What about Link's charge?

What about it?

 

[Xedi]

What about it?

I was just curious as to what kind of considerations lead to it not making an appearance.

 

[DarkDragoon]

I was just curious as to what kind of considerations lead to it not making an appearance.

Charging means making his uncharged hit weaker, and the attack is already slow and telegraphed, so charging would make it worse in every way possible.
-DD

 

[Shadic]

I was just curious as to what kind of considerations lead to it not making an appearance.

It's already an incredibly strong attack with some good range. If you could charge it and make it even stronger, it would need trade-offs. Any trade-offs put on the move would ultimately ruin how the move was used in Melee.

 

[iLink]

Just wanted to chime in and say wavebouncing was not useless for most of the characters. It could be incorporated for landing mixups when your opponent was pressuring while you were trying to get your feet back on the ground. Almost every character with a projectile can use it effectively.

 

[Xedi]

OK, good explanations! I'm glad that proper thought is put into every change, rather than just reverting to Melee by default.

 

[Starscream]

It wouldn't have to. It could start out at the full melee power and be charged further. This was my original thought of how it would work when Brawl came out

Quoted because it seems to have gone ignored. This is also how I always envisioned the charge.

 

[Xedi]

I think Shadic addressed that pretty convincingly.

 

[FireBall Stars]

It's already an incredibly strong attack with some good range. If you could charge it and make it even stronger, it would need trade-offs. Any trade-offs put on the move would ultimately ruin how the move was used in Melee.

I agree, but, maybe in a similar manner to Toon Link, who has hurricane spin by charging, Link could have the great spin, a simple boost of range, strong or not as the main attack.

Link is already incredible right now so, whatever.

 

[kupo15]

Quoted because it seems to have gone ignored. This is also how I always envisioned the charge.

Thank you! lol

I think Shadic addressed that pretty convincingly.

Why does it need a trade off? It can be an exponential growth so that way you don't get a drastic increase in KB unless its close to fully charged if you really want

 

[Juushichi]

A sort of long coming post at the warning of a thread derail.

In no way am I trying to push along thoughts of the clone engine when I bring this up, since I was just kind of curious.

I was thinking about Roy after looking over at his PSA thread (the 3.0 textures and recolors look amazing, btw) and thought back to one of the goals of P:M -> which was making characters who were unviable in Melee and breathing some life into them.

I will admit that I don't know a ton about Melee Roy. I know some of his go to moves and how they work and I've watched people play Roy in the past. I will admit that even with buffs, I don't see Roy being a middle of the road character. But even when I sat down and thought about it, I wondered how he would work with his buffs. Like, what areas of his games would you buff? What does he even do well in the first place? What games does he play well with? spacing? Juggling? Kill power?

Again though, I don't really know. However, if you've bothered to continue to read this post, my conjecture actually has a point.

How would you (regular posters or the devs) design Roy? What would do to improve him? What parts of his game really need improvement? How would your ideal Roy work? What would he his strengths and weaknesses?

---

TL;DR: How would you design Roy?

 

[crush]

A sort of long coming post at the warning of a thread derail.

In no way am I trying to push along thoughts of the clone engine when I bring this up, since I was just kind of curious.

I was thinking about Roy after looking over at his PSA thread (the 3.0 textures and recolors look amazing, btw) and thought back to one of the goals of P:M -> which was making characters who were unviable in Melee and breathing some life into them.

I will admit that I don't know a ton about Melee Roy. I know some of his go to moves and how they work and I've watched people play Roy in the past. I will admit that even with buffs, I don't see Roy being a middle of the road character. But even when I sat down and thought about it, I wondered how he would work with his buffs. Like, what areas of his games would you buff? What does he even do well in the first place? What games does he play well with? spacing? Juggling? Kill power?

Again though, I don't really know. However, if you've bothered to continue to read this post, my conjecture actually has a point.

How would you (regular posters or the devs) design Roy? What would do to improve him? What parts of his game really need improvement? How would your ideal Roy work? What would he his strengths and weaknesses?

---

TL;DR: How would you design Roy?

make t3h ph1r3 better

 

[MonkUnit]

Make Roy exactly like marth.

 

[ETWIST51294]

Roy needs more KB on moves and more damage, there's 4 reason that Roy's so bad.

1. He gets comboed and CGed to ****ing death. His physics are terrible.
2. His recovery is one of, if not the, worst in the game.
3. His game revolves around bad spacing, that's a bad thing.
and 4. The thing that complete makes Roy utter **** is that you can CC the **** out of his moves. Like, the only moves you can't CC and punish till like 60% are fsmash, DED, neutral B (when charged), and dsmash. Pair that up with not being able to space with rewards, terrible physics, and a terrible recovery and you get punished to death for basically everything.

 

[JediKnightTemplar]

Make Roy exactly like marth.

No, make Roy one of Marth's alt costumes. 10

 

[BinAly]

Make Roy exactly like marth.

Just make him a Marth 'color' then, as Doc Mario should be. ;D

- damn it JKT...

 

[Vigilante]

Lol, if I were to make Roy, he'd have a range between Marth and Ike, slightly larger sweetspot, side B would be given better combo trajectory with the fourth attack changed into attacks that are stronger / have slightly larger hitbox.

Recovery would rise up then slash down, kinda like "Tiger Blade" in the Tales series, Roy would be a little bit more of a powerhouse in terms of knockback and he would do slightly more damage. Neutral B would be a charged attack, kinda like DK's neutral B, but it would be "nerfed" in damage, considering being able to pull off an instant kill move on command would be a little... OP. And when Neutral B is charged, Roy's blade becomes engulfed in flames, increasing his damage potential and leaving a trail of fire behind his attacks for a brief moment., which alone, without the blade, causes a very small amount of damage. In other words, using charged B would result in discharging the fire and losing the extra boost.

Also, the spike speetspot for D-air would be more logical, more in line with Marth's, but require closer range to perform.

So:

- Small range increase.
- Small sweetspot range increase (Most likely proportionate to the range increase)
- Side B linking better.
- Side B finisher more potent.
- Down Air more logical spot.
- Spike Down Air (as opposed to meteor).
- Rise and fall recovery attack, harder to punish, more offensive.
- Neutral B charge kept but release nerfed.
- Charged neutral B sets the blade ablaze, thus increased damage outputs and flame trail.
- Releasing charged neutral B removes blazing effect on the sword.
- Minor Damage / knockback boost.

Of course, that's just a few amusing takes on what would make an amusing Roy . Don't expect jump the gun though, no one confirmed Roy .

 

[ETWIST51294]

No Roy needs a major damage boost on his aerials. His aerials do like 4% each.

And DED is one of Roys best moves and it linked fine. You only go for the first three though since the 3rd hit has good KB. It doesn't need to be buffed though. Everything else looks great.

 

[Shadic]

Why does it need a trade off? It can be an exponential growth so that way you don't get a drastic increase in KB unless its close to fully charged if you really want

Because it's a move that already can KO spacies basically at spawn percent. Giving it a charge both makes a powerful move more powerful, and increases the ease of using the move, due to the fact that you can charge it up and release when you want. It takes away a lot of the risk with the move.

 

[Vigilante]

No Roy needs a major damage boost on his aerials. His aerials do like 4% each.

And DED is one of Roys best moves and it linked fine. You only go for the first three though since the 3rd hit has good KB. It doesn't need to be buffed though. Everything else looks great.

Lol, Aerials was included in the buffs.

 

[ETWIST51294]

Where? I see nothing but the buff on the dair.

 

[Vigilante]

I stated general knockback and damage increase, so that includes aerial game, plus, aerials would obviously be buffed by the flame charge on top of it.

 

[ETWIST51294]

Oh, alright. My bad.

 

[Xedi]

About Roy, I think there are some decent ideas. After seeing how entertaining Lucas' charge was, I could think that having something similar with flames could be decent with Roy...


Also, I forgot to mention this earlier, what's the reason for which Mario's fair no longer spikes? Is it to care for the Dr. Mario enthusiasts out there?

 

[Vigilante]

About Roy, I think there are some decent ideas. After seeing how entertaining Lucas' charge was, I could think that having something similar with flames could be decent with Roy...


Also, I forgot to mention this earlier, what's the reason for which Mario's fair no longer spikes? Is it to care for the Dr. Mario enthusiasts out there?

It still meteors, but at the end of the animation. The first part is Dr. Mario. The final part is Mario meteor.

 

[FireBall Stars]

Mario's Fair never spiked, it does meteor if you hit in the farther hitbox of the move at maximum range or at the end of the arc if the enemy is airborne.

I had already adressed some changes that I wanted for roy here and in the same stream that pit's new sideB was first discussed publicy, discussing with Dark Sonic I've found that were many changes that were already adressed by Sethlon before to the PMBR.

But to have roy the exact way I want him to be would need massive animation changes, and judging of how hard is to edit animations with Brawlbox, I don't think it would be done :/

Anyway, Vigilante, Roy already has a better range than Marth by comparison but he can't make a good use of it as Marth can, having a way too use his tipper attacks effectively besides simples stun would pretty much resolve his problem (as the tippers pushing people towards him in some attacks).

 

[C_Ferris32]

I know that there isn't a set release date for the patch, but I was wondering something. How are you guys going to determine when it's done? Do you have a set list of things you want to make sure are fixed, no matter how long it takes, or are you just going to make improvements where you can until you think that you've improved on it enough to elicit a release? Sorry if I'm asking a question that can't reliably be answered ATM, I was just wondering.

 

[JCaesar]

It does spike. Hit with the last few frames of it.

Man I thought with this "live updating" stuff I wouldn't be ninja'd so much...

 

[Xedi]

Sorry, apparently I haven't been trying enough. Thanks.

(I honestly think it's a bit hard to pull off, but whatever, you guys have really thought of everything, I love how this is turning out!)

 

[Vigilante]

Sorry, apparently I haven't been trying enough. Thanks.

(I honestly think it's a bit hard to pull off, but whatever, you guys have really thought of everything, I love how this is turning out!)

Lol, it's just that most of the time, you want Dr. Mario's forward air, trust me.

 

[Xedi]

Yeah, that's true. Mario is really quite playable now.

OK, how about this. I can't seem to spike opponents with Falco's down throw from the edge of the stage, any comments? I had a lot of fun doing that in Melee!

 

[MonkUnit]

You can still dthrow spike with Falco. I've done it a few times in PM before, just never in melee. lol

 

[Xedi]

Maybe you can, I can't.

 

[An Alien]

My issue with Vigilante's idea of a flaming sword for the Roy makeover is that it's been done before.

Except on Ike.

In Brawl-.

Granted, they kept the OHKO power, but the effect is the same. :/

 

[JCaesar]

Who cares what Brawl- did? Just because someone else did something doesn't mean we shouldn't do it if it's a good idea (not that that's a good idea, just in general).

 

[An Alien]

Who cares what Brawl- did? Just because someone else did something doesn't mean we shouldn't do it if it's a good idea (not that that's a good idea, just in general).

...The simple logic of that statement actually made me lol. Ignore me last post. Brain Fart.