Project M Social Thread

[Supreme Dirt]

And yeah, I'd rather have Melee's ledge occupancy.

I'd rather not, because it's ********.

 

[crush]

I'd rather not, because it's ********.

Why? You want the games to be longer?

 

[MonkUnit]

Any streams being prepared for the remainder of our long weekend?

ST and I might stream tonight. Just a possibility.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Why? You want the games to be longer?

Yes, actually.

 

[Crooked Crow]

ST and I might stream tonight. Just a possibility.

I'd watch.

Also, I remember lurking this thread a while back, where a few developers said ledge occupancy was going to be a hybrid between Brawl and Melee's?

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Yeah they did.

Which is how it should be.

Since both games are pretty ******** in that respect.

 

[PeachEater74]

Yeah they did.

Which is how it should be.

Since both games are pretty ******** in that respect.

No, lol. Any changes to make recovering in general easier is pretty silly. . Same reason I was, and still am opposed to grabbing backwards during special fall. Allows for the player to be more imprecise, allows for more mistakes, and it will make the matches take longer. Recovering was generally harder than edge guarding (depending on the character of course, though) and I see no reason to change that.

 

[Revven]

Same reason I was, and still am opposed to grabbing backwards during special fall.

Ah, but here is the thing: characters could grab backwards in Melee during special fall, but it was only a select few. Are you saying you had a problem with those few characters in Melee as well? Because we aren't breaking away from Melee when you look at it like that.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

It was kind of arbitrary in Melee... Was there any kind of pattern to it?

I don't know off the top of my head who could grab backwards in special fall and who couldn't.


Also lol, a Young Link complaining about matches taking too long?

 

[Ecks]

I'd rather not, because it's ********.

I would rather have the hybrid, but if I had to choose between both of them, I would go with Melee's due to the simple fact that I'm used to it after all this years.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

I'm more used to Brawl's.

That said I despise Brawl ledge occupancy. Sometimes it doesn't even make sense when they can grab the ledge.

 

[crush]

Yes, actually.

So you want the game to be more like brawl then? With every game being 5 minutes long?

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Because longer matches automatically makes the game more like Barwl, of course.

With that reasoning, if Pikachu/Metaknight/Olimar/Snake/Diddyetc end up being good characters, you might as well be playing Barwl.

Actually while we're at it, let's remove all the things Brawl introduced.

No more DACUS, B-Reverse, all the new characters, new stages, Falcon loses his Knee easter egg, everyone gets two taunts removed, replays (though this might be caused unintentionally, lol), Pika loses QAC, etc.

 

[Ecks]

Only high and top tier matches take 2 minutes. I have no problem with 4-5 minute matches. Why do people make such a big deal out of the time anyway?

 

[PeachEater74]

Ah, but here is the thing: characters could grab backwards in Melee during special fall, but it was only a select few. Are you saying you had a problem with those few characters in Melee as well? Because we aren't breaking away from Melee when you look at it like that.

It's not during special fall. Certain characters could grab backwards during up+bs, but it was only for a fraction of a second. If technically the up+b was over at that point, and they were in special fall, like I said, the window was for a fraction of a second, not the entirety of special fall like in P:M. Just as well, those characters can't grab out of special fall from an air dodge, making me more inclined to believe it was the up+bs that were what let them grab.

I mean, I didn't analyze the data of Melee like the P:M team has so you know better than me what causes it, but my real problem with grabbing backwards is how it's the entirety of the special fall and not the fraction of the second after the up+b.


EDIT: This is actually probably my only big issue with the whole game. It just irks me when I see a Marth up b the wrong direction after and edge guard or something and still have the capability to make it back even though he ****ed up.

 

[Ecks]

^ I remember hearing someone say that some characters could turn around at the peak of their up b. I could be wrong though.

 

[PeachEater74]

^ I remember hearing someone say that some characters could turn around at the peak of their up b. I could be wrong though.

Ganon, Falcon, Link, Young Link, and don't quote me on this one, but I think it's the spacies as well. I don't think anyone else can. Maybe Samus. So at max it's 7 characters, it's only for a split second, and they're all edge guarded pretty easily if you're smart about it.

EDIT: I'm not really trying to convince you guys to change anything, 'cuz I know that won't happen. Just stating my response to Falco400's argument.

 

[ClinkStryphart]

Only high and top tier matches take 2 minutes. I have no problem with 4-5 minute matches. Why do people make such a big deal out of the time anyway?

^ this Time shouldn't be a problem. Also I forget how far back it was but there was a huge discussion on the time limit thing or what not so lets drop it. To be quite honest I don't know why people make such a big fuss about it.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Um lol, I know some characters could grab during special fall, because I remember doing so when I was obviously in special fall.

 

[Deleted member]

Ah, but here is the thing: characters could grab backwards in Melee during special fall, but it was only a select few. Are you saying you had a problem with those few characters in Melee as well? Because we aren't breaking away from Melee when you look at it like that.

Fox/Falco off apex of up-b requires skilled timing and talented input and shortly after during fast fall.

Falcon/Ganon off apex of reverse up-b requires skilled input for spacing and shortly thereafter during fast fall.

Link/Y Link off apex of up-b and shortly during fast fall which again requires skilled input and effort.

Lastly, I think but am not sure that Samus, DK, and Bowser can grab the ledge from the ending of their up-bs when facing away in a very small time frame.



The trend here is a skilled, talented input and spacing required to do such things and not some half *** mechanic inserted in Brawl only to make casual players suicide less.

When I talk about this project with Melee players I know, they detest this mechanic in the form that PM implements it.

Lastly, you are giving the ability to grab ledges in special fall to characters who do not at all in the slightest need it. Sheik, Marth, and Peach should not be able to grab ledge backwards at all. Their recoveries are fine and do not need any sort of tampering. This includes recoveries and special falls caused by airdodges.

Recoveries should be precise and skillful

 

[crush]

Because longer matches automatically makes the game more like Barwl, of course.

With that reasoning, if Pikachu/Metaknight/Olimar/Snake/Diddyetc end up being good characters, you might as well be playing Barwl.

Actually while we're at it, let's remove all the things Brawl introduced.

No more DACUS, B-Reverse, all the new characters, new stages, Falcon loses his Knee easter egg, everyone gets two taunts removed, replays (though this might be caused unintentionally, lol), Pika loses QAC, etc.

Using brawls ledge occupancy makes recovering much more easy with most characters, and there are very few characters who actually need their recovery boosted by this.

 

[foshio]

.... I play as the Fox/Falco/Falcon and Ganon in melee. It does not take much skill at all. You dont even have to imput... you just start doing the up-B animation in one direction, then hold back in the other direction... They'll grab the ledge easy peasy...

 

[SuperHappyCow]

I'd rather see Melee's ledge occupancy return in its entirety.

Characters who have poor offstage edgeguard options or are poor at edgeguarding need it. It makes the best edgeguarders better, but it allows for poorer characters to do more at the same time.

That and Melee is perfectly crafted by the divine hands of the gods therefore ledge occupancy is perfect

Sweet rose tinted shades. Can I borrow them for a minute, cause I can't seem to forget the dozens of times I lost to stupid glitches like phantom hits, or completely skill deprived ledge guarding. All you have to do is sit on that pretty little ledge, wait, and then roll. It's ridiculous, and often lasts the entire animation of the roll. Brawl's ledge coding is far superior and encourages players to actually confront each other, rather than exploit universal game mechanics for K-Os

Why? You want the games to be longer?

"Why? You want (relatively arbitrary statistic)?"

 

[Dark Sonic]

Yeah, and what's with this "requires spacing" bull****. You don't even have to be at the apex of most of those character's up Bs (they grab it for much longer after their up Bs are over than you think. It's not like you need to sweetspot to grab the edge backwards).

Some of the melee players I've talked to actually prefer ledgegrabs the way we've implemented them. They say that because it actually has very little affect on matches against anyone who knows anythinga about edgeguarding. Marth being able to grab the ledge backwards makes little difference when you can just shine him after his up B before he can grab the ledge anyway (even from a "sweetspot" as Marth is not able to interrupt his up B with a ledge grab anyway). For most characters, being able to grab the edge backwards has very little affect on their overall recovery (and will pretty negligible if we ever fix ledge occupancy).


They like it because it helps their casual friends not kill themselves, but at the same time doesn't make edgeguarding players that much more difficult. It's something that will appeal to casual players, while not really affecting competitive players aside from a slightly higher learning curve when it comes to edgeguarding. We often gripe about how nintendo dumbed down brawl when leaving in the advanced stuff has no affect on casual play in the first place, but never look at the other side of the coin (when something that benefits casual play has no affect on competitive play).


It may not be the popular opinion (I know more melee players that don't like it than those that do like it), but it's not nearly as big a deal as people make it out to be at first glance.

 

[TeiunBomb]

Guys.
Guys.

JCaeser is uploading matches to YouTube.

Just figured I would give everyone the heads-up early, before he decides to do it himself.

 

[JCaesar]

Indeed. Just extras I didn't get a chance to upload from a couple weeks ago. cmart has all the videos from our smashfest yesterday.

 

[crush]

Sweet rose tinted shades. Can I borrow them for a minute, cause I can't seem to forget the dozens of times I lost to stupid glitches like phantom hits, or completely skill deprived ledge guarding. All you have to do is sit on that pretty little ledge, wait, and then roll. It's ridiculous, and often lasts the entire animation of the roll. Brawl's ledge coding is far superior and encourages players to actually confront each other, rather than exploit universal game mechanics for K-Os

Please look at something like the fox vs marth matchup with brawls ledge occupancy. What do you think the matchup is like on dreamland with brawls ledge occupancy?

 

[SuperHappyCow]

Do you have a link to the video? Because if it's not this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPgBDK7Dc6c

I'm certainly not going to find it myself. If you mean the grab at 00:50, yeah, that's great. I'd like less invincibility frames on the person grabbing the ledge, so there's a greater chance of suffering repercussions. It really should be something that is high risk to pull off, rather than low risk-high reward.

But Marth only got back up because Fox jumped off the ledge, rather than using a simple button recovery.

 

[crush]

I didn't mean look at a match, I meant look at the matchup......

 

[Dark Sonic]

Crush is trying to say that the drastically lower ledge occupancy makes Marth harder to edgeguard, and his less than good recovery was an important part of the matchup in melee.

 

[SuperHappyCow]

If Marth becomes harder to edge guard, suck it up. All of the characters would become harder to guard against if the time the guarding lasts, and invincibility frames that accompany the executor are lowered.

I don't understand the nostalgic love for a facet of Melee that really never required much skill to execute. Wanting it back simply because it was in Melee doesn't make sense to me, either.

I mean, what if ledge guarding was never in melee, yet it was in Brawl? People would call it out for what it is(simply as a coincidental artifact of saying nothing in Brawl requires skill).

 

[crush]

some people dont like brawls ledge occupancy because it makes games that are already longer than melee longer, and most people don't like watching/playing long, boring matches.

 

[SuperHappyCow]

A laughable argument at best.

"These matches are taking too long, so let's find an artificial way to make them shorter."

 

[Stevo]

some people dont like brawls ledge occupancy because it makes games that are already longer than melee longer, and most people don't like watching/playing long, boring matches.

you could argue killing somebody by rolling up on the stage is boring too, you know.

I somewhat agree with you though

 

[crush]

A laughable argument at best.

"These matches are taking too long, so let's find an artificial way to make them shorter."

No I was saying using brawl ledge occupancy over melees is not going to make players confront each other more when edgeguarding, it will do the exact opposite, making the game slower and boring.

 

[Comeback Kid]

No I was saying using brawl ledge occupancy over melees is not going to make players confront each other more when edgeguarding, it will do the exact opposite, making the game slower and boring.

But wait a second here, isn't the team striving to reproduce Melee-style ledge occupancy? Just with slightly stricter timing on how long a ledge is ungrabbable by your opponent after you edge hog and the often-mentioned reverse ledge grab. Is there anything I'm missing?

Yes those two tweaks do make edge guarding take slightly more skill and risk, but why should the edge guarder get free kills from weird oddities in the melee engine? Ledges are kinda glitchy.

An opponent suiciding himself can be hilarious to witness but I feel that offering the player more control over their character, not less, is usually the best route to take. As long as recoveries aren't overpowered, which is possible at the moment, I think the changes should work out fine.

 

[hotdogturtle]

Melee's ledge occupancy may be nonsensical with some of the longer animations, but Brawl's near-nonexistant occupancy makes some characters practically impossible to edgehog, since you'd get hit by their recovery if you stay on the ledge, but they will grab the ledge the instant you let go. It should be somewhere closer to Melee style, but toned down to make more visual sense. It needs to be fixed from its current state though.

 

[Strong Badam]

are we done yet? this discussion has lasted longer than it should have.

 

[slimpyman]

so the consensus is that ledge occupancy needs a shorter duration.... just as sticky techs would need to be fixed to give the game a more melee feel. i think we all understand these simple facts. its really just hoping a few of the coders can just come across something that hasnt yet been discovered. its like flipping a thousand sided coin. the number can come up but its all random chance.

 

[MonkUnit]

slimpyman, come to Don't Blink: ~After Story~ on september 24th in Glen Ellyn, IL. st and i are probably gonna go there. there'll be pm there if we go. i wanna play you again