Project M Social Thread

[drsusredfish]

Lol at DAS' whole conversation and the "i play the demo". wish we could tell them.

 

[Cero]

That's bogus. If they really did learn then why is that in the 2 years I played Brawl, not once did a Snake DACUS against me (and there was a stage where I did a lot of 4 Snake FFA)

A computer isn't programmed to know how to DACUS. Isn't DACUS technically a glitch?

Anyway, an example I can give is that, as Marth, I like to frequently catch people with the first hit of forward-B. I just throw it out there as an interrupter move for when they're trying to approach or space or whatever.

Level 9 Marth has since then copied me. He actually does it too much and it's annoying. I don't think I've seen him behave like that before in Brawl.

Level 9 Falco short hop lasers now. He short hop aerials too.
He doesn't short hop forward-B. I'm pretty sure the computer has to be emulating my movements.

 

[Rikana]

How is dacus a glitch when the developers of pm found out that there were frames opened for an input during dash attack. At least, that's what I remembered someone from the pmbr posted. Correct me if I'm wrong.

It's just like how teching for brawl was coded. Someone found an error on brawl's behalf which is why tech never felt natural.

 

[Ghostbone]

A computer isn't programmed to know how to DACUS. Isn't DACUS technically a glitch?

Anyway, an example I can give is that, as Marth, I like to frequently catch people with the first hit of forward-B. I just throw it out there as an interrupter move for when they're trying to approach or space or whatever.

Level 9 Marth has since then copied me. He actually does it too much and it's annoying. I don't think I've seen him behave like that before in Brawl.

Level 9 Falco short hop lasers now. He short hop aerials too.
He doesn't short hop forward-B. I'm pretty sure the computer has to be emulating my movements.

DACUS isn't a glitch.

And the computers would have always done that.

 

[Cero]

How is dacus a glitch when the developers of pm found out that there were frames opened for an input during dash attack. At least, that's what I remembered someone from the pmbr posted. Correct me if I'm wrong.

It's just like how teching for brawl was coded. Someone found an error on brawl's behalf which is why tech never felt natural.

Wait. Are you saying that DACUS was intentionally put in by the developers of Brawl?

You might be able to get away with calling it a physics exploit. But I couldn't imagine it being intentionally put into the game.

If anything, it was lazily left in there. Just like wavedashing (thankfully) in Melee.

 

[Utterrandomness]

Oversight =/= glitch necessarily

 

[Haloedhero]

Brawl's so sloppy... part of Ganon's Brawl F-air was literally coded wrong...

 

[MonkUnit]

Yes, DACUS is coded into the game. It's not a glitch or oversight.

 

[Strong Badam]

your anecdotal evidence does not refute the mountains of evidence of decision strings and branches being found through testing, nor those found through looking through the AI scripts.

 

[Wavebuster]

Brawl's so sloppy... part of Ganon's Brawl F-air was literally coded wrong...

Melee had some "errors" too. Zelda's UpB actually having a reappear hitbox in her data file but not being applied in game for some reason is an example of a bad one. Link's Nair not having a "terminate collisions" so it hits throughout the entire animation would be a good error.

 

[Crooked Crow]

Melee had some "errors" too. Zelda's UpB actually having a reappear hitbox in her data file but not being applied in game for some reason is an example of a bad one. Link's Nair not having a "terminate collisions" so it hits throughout the entire animation would be a good error.

Doesn't Links' Nair also have two separate hitboxes? One comes out as the animation initiates, and there's a receding hitbox that activates after?

It would explain why the hitbox is constant.

 

[Ecks]

A computer isn't programmed to know how to DACUS. Isn't DACUS technically a glitch?

Anyway, an example I can give is that, as Marth, I like to frequently catch people with the first hit of forward-B. I just throw it out there as an interrupter move for when they're trying to approach or space or whatever.

Level 9 Marth has since then copied me. He actually does it too much and it's annoying. I don't think I've seen him behave like that before in Brawl.

Level 9 Falco short hop lasers now. He short hop aerials too.
He doesn't short hop forward-B. I'm pretty sure the computer has to be emulating my movements.

Marth doesn't do that in vbrawl because because he can complete dancing blade just fine in that game. Since Melee's dancing blade has a different timing he can't complete it and he just does the first slash because he's using the brawl input on melee's dancing blade.

As for Falco, I don't know if he does a command like that in Brawl but he probably does.

It is surprising though. I've seen Falco follow after shine and other shenanigans all the time. Some characters like Link can even moonwalk.

 

[Wavebuster]

Doesn't Links' Nair also have two separate hitboxes? One comes out as the animation initiates, and there's a receding hitbox that activates after?

It would explain why the hitbox is constant.

They're not separate hitboxes in that they're not on separate hit windows like Link's Bair is. It's like any other sex kick (like Sheik's Nair) except this one continues to hit for the entire animation, even after its IASA frame.

 

[Crooked Crow]

I see. Thanks for the clarification.

*Edit* I finished watching frame data for Link, and his Nair is one long, continuous, high priority hitbox that remains there even when Link himself is in the receding animation. (As you were saying, it's an IASA move, especially since his Nair auto-cancels as well.)

Imagine Fox or Sheik with a Nair like that... such ungodly **** would commence.

 

[Wavebuster]

For reference since I was finally able to get the links from someone:

And this is Young Link's for comparison:

 

[ValTroX]

^ Gotta love that sex kick....

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

No wonder Link's nair was so good.

And Zelda having a reappear hitbox would've really helped her in Melee.

 

[Mr.Jackpot]

A computer isn't programmed to know how to DACUS. Isn't DACUS technically a glitch?

Anyway, an example I can give is that, as Marth, I like to frequently catch people with the first hit of forward-B. I just throw it out there as an interrupter move for when they're trying to approach or space or whatever.

Level 9 Marth has since then copied me. He actually does it too much and it's annoying. I don't think I've seen him behave like that before in Brawl.

Level 9 Falco short hop lasers now. He short hop aerials too.
He doesn't short hop forward-B. I'm pretty sure the computer has to be emulating my movements.

It's already been proven that the CPU learns from your patterns.

 

[Wavebuster]

No wonder Link's nair was so good.

And Zelda having a reappear hitbox would've really helped her in Melee.

http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/7508/meleereappear.png
I was just as confused as the next person to see this in the reappear action. If only.

 

[crush]

it just wouldnt work for some characters (i.e. jiggs) cause it can create some ridiculous wall recovery scenarios that would leave the game too off-stage orientated

I think sheik being able to regain her double jump when she clings to walls leaves her game more off stage orientated then jiggs would if jiggs could walljump.

vs most characters as sheik on stages like Draculas castle or SSE jungle I never really bother leaving the wall lol

 

[NeoZ]

It's already been proven that the CPU learns from your patterns.

It's the other way around, they proved the CPU didn't learn.

 

[Cero]

I don't really care either way. I'm just happy enough playing computers that aren't total sandbags.

Yes, DACUS is coded into the game. It's not a glitch or oversight.

How do you know it's not an oversight? They really intended for Snake to be gliding around while charging an up-smash?

 

[Haloedhero]

your anecdotal evidence does not refute the mountains of evidence of decision strings and branches being found through testing, nor those found through looking through the AI scripts.

Hmm... that's interesting. Unlike others, I don't think the computers actually learn techniques, but I was under the impression that they "learn" which decision gets them more positive results in certain situations and then tend more towards that decision when faced with a choice.

For instance, I had a bad habit for a while of rolling up onto the stage practically every time I was on the ledge against computers. After a while, I noticed that when I'd grab the ledge, the computers would literally go and stand at approximate ledge roll distance and just wait there. If I rolled up, they smashed me every time. After a while, I literally got free ledge jumps every time while they walked and stood a few feet away. And, after doing that, it seemed they caught on and stopped waiting over there so often...

I'm not saying this proves that they learn, but it makes me think there's a possibility that there's a small amount of coding, which hasn't been found yet, that tells the AI to value a certain decision higher if it is frequently successful.

Edit: And Dacus being intentionally coded does not mean they intended characters to be able to slide as far as, say, Snake. Just like JC up smashes in Melee. It needs to be that way because of tap jump, and there were side effects of allowing jump to be canceled by up smash, but it was necessary.

 

[Wavebuster]

Way to take it back to 2002 with the wavedash-like debates, guys.

 

[UltiMario]

How do you know it's not an oversight? They really intended for Snake to be gliding around while charging an up-smash?

It's fairly obvious of a difference when there is purposeful coding for a cancel and just a bizzare mishap.

 

[standardtoaster]

How do you know it's not an oversight? They really intended for Snake to be gliding around while charging an up-smash?

Action0x26
@1298C
AttackDash,
-----------|START|--------------------------
Change Action(Status)(EXT=1) - StatusID=0x276B, ID=0x30, Requirement=Button Pressed, Variable=0x0,
Additional Requirement - Requirement=Not Unknown(0x2725),
Additional Requirement - IC-Basic[1018] >= IC-Basic[3158]
Additional Requirement - Requirement=On Ground,
----------------------------|END|-----------

This is why.

 

[Haloedhero]

Ugh, guys who are arguing that DACUS was intentional, the guy(s?) arguing against it is obviously referring to the sometimes ridiculous sliding properties on some DACUSes and not DACUS in general. He's just wording himself wrong. He doesn't understand, at a coding level, what DACUS really is.

Ugh, guy(s?) who is arguing that it's an oversight, the guys who are arguing against you are being very literal in their interpretation that DACUS is literally the ability to cancel the dash attack into the up smash, in which case it was, in fact, coded on purpose.

This is a simple case of you guys, on purpose or by accident, not understanding what the other person means and taking it the wrong way.

 

[standardtoaster]

Oh, lol .

 

[Cero]

Ugh, guys who are arguing that DACUS was intentional, the guy(s?) arguing against it is obviously referring to the sometimes ridiculous sliding properties on some DACUSes and not DACUS in general. He's just wording himself wrong. He doesn't understand, at a coding level, what DACUS really is.

Ugh, guy(s?) who is arguing that it's an oversight, the guys who are arguing against you are being very literal in their interpretation that DACUS is literally the ability to cancel the dash into the up smash, in which case it was, in fact, coded on purpose.

This is a simple case of you guys, on purpose or by accident, not understanding what the other person means and taking it the wrong way.

Thanks. Everything makes sense now.

And, I was starting to get mad. Lol.

 

[Haloedhero]

. Glad I could help.

 

[AMKalmar]

Has anything new been released since the demo?

 

[MonkUnit]

Not yet .

 

[JediKnightTemplar]

yo unholy where do you live?

to you, unholy, and everyone else, if you want to play the current build with a PMBR member, please refer to the PMBR Locations List. You'd be surprised there might be a PMBR member in your state.

There isn't. D:

 

[MonkUnit]

Get people from MI to apply. There's quite a large smash community in MI IIRC.

 

[GHNeko]

more people need to live in VA.

 

[standardtoaster]

Rules and stagelist added to the OP of the tourney. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=312881

 

[Brian_Link]

I love how Metaknight is banned in the melee tourney.

Unfortunately, I'm not going to travel that far to play Project M. Illinois needs some playtesters... and I sure don't have the skill to be one.

 

[standardtoaster]

If this does turn into a monthly, it is likely that it will actually have normal hours rather than the 7pm to 1am it is right now.

 

[MonkUnit]

Yeah, you IL guys need to get a good player like Tink, Kels, ORLY, etc to apply.

 

[JediKnightTemplar]

But it really does feel like they're "adapting" to my playstyle.

Every time I play them, it feels like they react faster and they always seem to try to copy my movements from previous matches.

They don't learn, they simply use different moves for different situations. They've been coded to say for instance "If player does X do Y. If Y doesn't work try Z. If Z doesn't work..." They only use their options, of which they have many, not create new ones.