Project M Social Thread

[ph00tbag]

Umbreon, plasma whip is most definitely not all ZSS has. As far as gimmicky characters go, she should be one of the last brawl characters you bring up.

 

[Mono.]

This discussion just shows that we as players of melee as a whole should stop expecting everything to be quick and exciting. What sets pro players from average to bad ones is learning how to be patient and learning how to deal with different oppositions, no matter how "gay" or "gimmicky" they are.

But of course, this is easier said than done. I know whenever the salt kicks in for me, I start complaining about whatever. Trying to get that side out of me though. At least I feel I'm making progress.

 

[9Kplus1]

So, how's Ivysaur's sex kick coming along

 

[PurDi]

No one. cares. that Dant. just. posted?

If you could fix global AI, nana wouldn't be such a pile of crap! And then we could fix IC's and (possibly) olimar's pikmin problems?

EDIT: I'm also debating on whether to apply for the PMBR or not. I have fairly decent credentials, but I'm still working on getting really good and melee. Would it be better to apply soon and get in before demo 2 comes out or waits a couple months until I can hone my skills better?

 

[libertyernie]

I would be willing to fix the flower animations on the Green Hill stage you're currently using. I have another version of that stage with working flowers (like in Sonic 1).

 

[Deleted member]

So mow, care to explain what makes you feel that Yoshi is too good or what issues do you have with him?

yoshi right now isn't that good. the first version of the game i guess had yoshi's tongue as a grab box the entire time his tongue is out, stays out, and grabs characters out of the air and their attacks. so i spent a lot of my matches with aggressive characters playing solely around yoshi's dash away > pivot grab under platforms because the rest of the character was pretty much irrelevant and he could grab cool things like a knee that had already hit him, ganon's down b, or pretty much anything else that i challenged that tongue with. the best way i could come up with to fight it simplistically is to not challenge it, ever, and to lame him out with like falco lasers. I mean i guess it's an answer but it's not good design lol

Umbreon, plasma whip is most definitely not all ZSS has. As far as gimmicky characters go, she should be one of the last brawl characters you bring up.

yeah i'm convinced.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

yoshi right now isn't that good. the first version of the game i guess had yoshi's tongue as a grab box the entire time his tongue is out, stays out, and grabs characters out of the air and their attacks. so i spent a lot of my matches with aggressive characters playing solely around yoshi's dash away > pivot grab under platforms because the rest of the character was pretty much irrelevant and he could grab cool things like a knee that had already hit him, ganon's down b, or pretty much anything else that i challenged that tongue with. the best way i could come up with to fight it simplistically is to not challenge it, ever, and to lame him out with like falco lasers. I mean i guess it's an answer but it's not good design lol



yeah i'm convinced.

LOL sounds like leftover code from B+.

 

[ph00tbag]

yeah i'm convinced.

Her jab comes out in one frame, making it ideal for breaking tick throws and other standing resets. It also has a deceptively long hitbox, making the first hit very good for baiting shield grabs, which can be punished with dtilt. Speaking of dtilt, it frame traps on spotdodges.

Dash attack stuffs a lot of jump-ins, and combos into itself until your opponent hits the ground or is offstage, whichever comes first, if your opponent is DIing down, and into any of her aerials if DIed up.

ZSS's dsmash shouldn't need to be elaborated on. It has incredible advantage on block, and when coupled with pivots and wavedashes, gives a lot of strength to ZSS's dash dance game (and ZSS has a pretty long dash dance). Properly spaced dsmashes create opportunities for ambiguous cross-ups to make DI more difficult. Her usmash can be used for platform pressure, and in the right circumstances pushes opponents off the platform into itself. This leads into combos and juggle options.

ZSS's uair and nair are both very good air-to-ground moves when spaced properly, and retreating nairs are very good for baiting unwise sheild grabs. Nair in particular is very strong when used as a cross-up.

Paralyzer is also an oft-overlooked move. You can use this to force opponents into the air and out of position, or force them to block. If you've got them blocking, you can just dash cancel then grab them. The charged paralyzer creates a timing mix-up to keep your opponent guessing.

Now, you also want fighting the character to be interesting, and that comes with the package, too. There is one line that none of ZSS's safe options cover, and that is roughly a 30 degree angle in front of ZSS. Two things keep the match-up from devolving into her opponent exploiting this hole: first off, it requires a lot of space to get the angle right, so if she can get her opponent cornered, she can just poke them into submission. Of course, a lot of ZSS's strongest options involve running away briefly, which creates space, so a lot of these options are inherently weak to the thirty degree angle approach. Second, she can bait the approach and punish with pivot grab. Since pivot grab is unsafe, this means you can bait the grab, but you run the risk of running into the rest of her gameplan when you back off.

There are plenty of other moves with somewhat more situational uses, but rather than go into excruciating detail on moves that aren't used super often, I'll let it suffice to say there's a lot of depth to this character that you actually are forced to explore once your opponents figure out her weak points.

-

It's worth noting that back when Corey and I started playing early builds of this game, he would use the exact same strategy you speak of, and I would regularly crush the gameplan with Ganondorf using double jump fairs, going straight through the weak point to land them. But after Corey figured out he could pivot grab Ganon out of the strategy easily, it stopped working, and the match-up became a lot more interesting, and a lot more Melee like.

 

[JediKnightTemplar]

So, about that thing I said about AI. Definetly gonna look into it again.
I plugged up my Wii and USBGecko today.
I also read over my python code for unpacking the games AI into readable script.
While I am doing this moreso for my portfolio/resume, I think Project M will benefit from more findings.
Don't get too hype, but if anything comes out of this stuff, it will be making CPU's use specials better.
For example, right now, Fox/Falco will always pull out their blaster and use it without moving. It is very easy to replace that with a SHL/SHDL script, and thats using the knowledge I have now.

There are many other specials that have been changed and would benefit from altered AI scripts on a percharacter basis.
The holy grail would be tweaking the games global AI, which could completely change the way the AI operates.

I didn't know that companies looked well on this kind of stuff. I guess it does show ability to code and innovate though.

 

[Time/SpaceMage]

Holy cow it's Dant!

So out of curiosity, what can be done to improve on Training Mode? I'd love to see normal damage decay, more AI options, and hitbox display, though I'm not sure how feasible that is.

 

[kaizo13]

what happened to the good old days of simple posts....i'm tired of reading paragraphs
which mostly consist of drama

....how bout a blogpost for a change


Edit: ...or any insider on P:M's progress

 

[MaxThunder]

i can totally see mario going "I have-a balls of-a fire!"...

 

[I R MarF]

Alright, lets try and figure this post out...

We've been over this thousands of times already. Match-ups determine the lengths of the matches. If you have an FF'er versus an FF'er (Falco vs Fox) it's GOING to be quick.

Okay... so you are saying physics affect the match length. I see you ignored the fact that Fox and Falco also have garbage recoveries and powerful onstage games but thats fine.

If you have a Jiggly vs. a Falco, it's going to either be quick or it's going to take a little longer depending on how the Falco plays the match-up (playing it safe vs playing it aggro).

This argument is incredibly relative. Any match could be played safe or aggressive. Falco dittos could drag out for 6 minutes if both players are circling each other and playing hardcore defense.

If it's Samus vs Peach, what do you think is going to happen? Is it going to be super fast paced and go by in 2 minutes? Or go up to 4 minutes because both characters take a good amount of time to combo/KO?

This is just gold. You are trying to prove that recoveries don't affect match length, but your example is two of the floatiest characters in the game with some of the best recoveries? Also, are you trying to claim that Peach and Samus don't have competent KO options? Maybe the matches take forever because their physics are so lame they can't hit eachother and they won't die on top of it. Lemme guess, if Peach was playing Fox the match would be fast, right? Well thats because Peach beats fox on the grounds his recovery is bad and he falls fast, and Fox beats Peach on the grounds that he exploits floaties weaknesses with amazing vertical power and speedy jumps.

Recovery has barely has anything to do with match length and it is not a flaw with the game. Get this mentality out of your heads.

I agree, it isn't a flaw, but it has a lot to do with match length. Why would you say that two characters with bad recoveries have a short match, then two characters with polar physics and recoveries have a long match?

Melee rarely sees matches with Peach vs Samus or Link vs Fox or hell even Zelda vs Jigglypuff. And why is this? Because those characters in particular (Samus, Link, and Zelda) are ALL not good enough to win a major tournament with.

Or maybe its because their physics suck? Link and Zelda have terrible wavedashes, attack speed, run speed, and air speed. Slow characters suck. Everyone knew that Link's attacks just had to be sped up to make him good. And Samus is viable, but she is in a similar boat, she is incredibly floaty and has an awful short hop. At least her WD is really good.

If you want these characters viable, they have to have their own TOOLS to fight back with and one of those tools is recovery for some of these characters.

Well, Zelda, Link, and Samus all have amazing recoveries so i guess that plan is shot... darn.

But in all seriousness, recovery is not a tool to fight back. Its a tool to SURVIVE. A character must also be competent onstage, otherwise the only thing their recovery is good for is prolonging an inevitable death.

The only time a character CAN fight with their recovery is if their physics allow it. Sure, Link, Samus, and Zelda all have great recoveries, but what can they do aside from falling offstage and interecepting with an aerial. Meanwhile, Captain Falcon is bounding to the blast zone, perform a knee and jumping back A-ok, yet he is titled with having an awful recovery. Why? Because he has great airspeed. I bet if Zelda had C. Falcon's airspeed, falling speed, and running speed, she would be better instantly.

Flat out nerfing recovery across the board just so you can have match length shortened to 2 minutes...

Alright, I agree, whoever suggested across the board recovery nerf is dumb.

...will only mean Fox and Falco will continue to dominate these characters as again, I state, some of these characters' tools against Fox and Falco is being able to... recover.

Oh, lucky them. They get to play a bit longer before Fox and Falco knock them off again. As i said earlier, a great recovery is useless, and more so, a character is useless if they dont have the physics to fight back. Fox and Falco will inevitably beat any character who is slower than them... (Which is almost every character in the game). Not to mention, their recoveries are awful and yet recovery is somehow be-all end-all to make bad characters effective.

Well, thats just pure laziness if this is the thought process the rest of the P:M team shares. If you want to make a character good, they don't need a good recovery, they need good physics and onstage tools first. And who knows? Maybe some physics will make bad recoveries excellent tools for other situations (Captain Falcon). Furthermore, physics and recovery have an almost direct correlation to match length. Something you have contradicted yourself on a few times in your mess of a post. (No offense)

Conclusion for Recipe on How to Make a Character Good While Still Keeping the Match Short and Interesting:
Onstage Game > Recovery

Signed Fox and Falco

 

[Dantarion]

I didn't know that companies looked well on this kind of stuff. I guess it does show ability to code and innovate though.

It all depends on how you spin it.

For example, something like....

"Writing python scripts to analyse a unknown file, then writing a C# WPF app to display and edit the files structure."

Sounds a lot better than
"Made tool to edit game"

Its about the skills involved, not about the subject matter.

 

[Sneak8288]

falco is slower than the majority of the cast

 

[♡ⓛⓞⓥⓔ♡]

It all depends on how you spin it.

For example, something like....

"Writing python scripts to analyse a unknown file, then writing a C# WPF app to display and edit the files structure."

Sounds a lot better than
"Made tool to edit game"

Its about the skills involved, not about the subject matter.

The wizard has returned?

...again?

 

[I R MarF]

falco is slower than the majority of the cast

I assume this post is directed towards me? Falco is not slow. Sure, his airspeed is horrible and his dash is meh, but he has high falling speed (which gives him one of the fastest shffls), he has fast jumps, fast attacks (especially shine and laser) and has an above average WD.

Falco is definitely faster than the majority of the cast. Airspeed and Dash speed arent the only kinds of speed.

 

[Sneak8288]

I assume this post is directed towards me? Falco is not slow. Sure, his airspeed is horrible and his dash is meh, but he has high falling speed (which gives him one of the fastest shffls), he has fast jumps, fast attacks (especially shine and laser) and has an above average WD.

Falco is definitely faster than the majority of the cast. Airspeed and Dash speed arent the only kinds of speed.

Overall falco is slow and i know his falling speed is fast (fast faller), his WD isn't much better that others in the cast. No one ever complains about falco's speed and it definitely isn't the reason he wins matchups. Fox is a different story.

 

[rk-9000]

what happened to the good old days of simple posts....i'm tired of reading paragraphs
which mostly consist of drama

....how bout a blogpost for a change


Edit: ...or any insider on P:M's progress

^This. A thousand times this.

 

[9Kplus1]

Fox has garbage recovery? God I hope that you're being formally sarcastic. If not, I seriously do not doubt how stupid you are.

This argument is incredibly relative. Any match could be played safe or aggressive. Falco dittos could drag out for 6 minutes if both players are circling each other and playing hardcore defense.

Doesn't support the assumption that recoveries define match length, which was what Falco400 was poking at with that particular example. Falco can make Puff's recovery look negligible by exploiting her slow vertical speed and shinegrabbing often during pillaring -- playing more aggressively, so to speak. Conversely, Falco can play the MU extremely safely, avoiding most of Puff's handsy-*** shenanigans with careful laser play and general competence when on the defensive. Falco vs Puff can either be extremely long or hilariously short (likely the former because if Falco loses momentum due to a Rest / gimp, he'll be hard-pressed to get it back) due to the playstyles chosen by both players. You should also consider that Puff is the lightest high (Puff sucks, I'm never considering her top tier material) tier and dies to stupid stuff like shine --> shine on FoD.

I agree, it isn't a flaw, but it has a lot to do with match length.

Ok. So, have you noticed that Pichu loses in less than three minutes? Thought not. Match-ups, as stated and referenced to already, define match length for the most part. Recovery doesn't make a character any different offensively or defensively. Smash is a game of covering weaknesses and snatching as many opportunities as possible. If a player makes a mistake and ends up offstage, chances are that they're going to die anyway, despite the efficiency of their recovery options. Recovery, while very important to each character, does not heavily affect match length.

Why would you say that two characters with bad recoveries have a short match, then two characters with polar physics and recoveries have a long match?

Oh I don't know -- because Samus and Peach can easily play keep away until one of them lands a kill at 160% while Falco will get a death combo once he gets his hands on something?

Or maybe its because their physics suck? Link and Zelda have terrible wavedashes, attack speed, run speed, and air speed. Slow characters suck. Everyone knew that Link's attacks just had to be sped up to make him good. And Samus is viable, but she is in a similar boat, she is incredibly floaty and has an awful short hop. At least her WD is really good.

Um... Link nor Samus have bad recoveries in Melee, so I'm very sure they weren't what Falco400 was alluding to. Rather, characters with very linear / limited recovery options, such as Kirby and Zelda, or outright poor recovery, namely Ness, got small yet very useful buffs in that particular area. It doesn't make them any better or worse; matches with those characters will not decrease or increase substantially in duration. In fact, their other, more notable buffs will undoubtedly make their matches slower.

 

[LegendofLink]

What a lot of people detracting from things like better recoveries and "gimmicks" seem to be forgetting is that this game is in development, and there is no reason that they shouldn't be allowed to try things. If it doesn't work, they can just change it back. Sure, you can argue that the change is "bad game design", but refusing to even try it is even worse design, as you never really know how something will turn out until it is applied and tested. As long as you have faith that the final product will turn out fine, trying things in the meantime should be of no consequence.

 

[Xebenkeck]

You realize the whole point of this thread is for discussion of the development of the game right? Would you rather us talk about felines and humanoids again?

This is the place to discuss things such as gimmicks, badly designed things and greatly designed things. Even though I was argueing that gimmicks can be bad, I was by no means saying "don't try them out" I was simply pointing out how a gimmick can be bad. Likewise Spam Arrows is pointing out that if large number of characters have a ludicrously good/easy recovery, games and sets will last like Brawl matches.

Because like Brawl, unless you force them into a blast zone, characers can and will recover thus prolonging match length, and changing average kill percentage from say 110% to like 150%

I would say a great percentage of deaths in melee aren't because of hitting the side or top blast zones i'd say at least 50% of kills result from gimping and a charcters inability to recovery. which can happen at relatively low percents.



Also I will not be held responsible for what Falco does to you Spam. lol

 

[PEEF!]

Specialty stream for you niggies that dont sleep

www.twitch.tv/peefsmash

 

[Time/SpaceMage]

Or for those of us in a different time zone =3

 

[Archangel]

You realize the whole point of this thread is for discussion of the development of the game right? Would you rather us talk about felines and humanoids again?

This is the place to discuss things such as gimmicks, badly designed things and greatly designed things. Even though I was argueing that gimmicks can be bad, I was by no means saying "don't try them out" I was simply pointing out how a gimmick can be bad. Likewise Spam Arrows is pointing out that if large number of characters have a ludicrously good/easy recovery, games and sets will last like Brawl matches.

Because like Brawl, unless you force them into a blast zone, characers can and will recover thus prolonging match length, and changing average kill percentage from say 110% to like 150%

I would say a great percentage of deaths in melee aren't because of hitting the side or top blast zones i'd say at least 50% of kills result from gimping and a charcters inability to recovery. which can happen at relatively low percents.



Also I will not be held responsible for what Falco does to you Spam. lol

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

**** Falco!

 

[Vigilante]

The reason you all lose to Falco is because you don't use Old Spice body wash, obviously. I'm on an arwing.

 

[MaxThunder]

^^Well i'm on a white couch playing melodica to rap music...

... or i was until peef's stream went offline...

 

[PEEF!]

tis enojot
y
my loverssd

nmany wquirtle was played for the benefit of ewceryone intersetsdd

 

[jalued]

tis enojot
y
my loverssd

nmany wquirtle was played for the benefit of ewceryone intersetsdd

drunk posts ftw

 

[I R MarF]

Overall falco is slow and i know his falling speed is fast (fast faller), his WD isn't much better that others in the cast. No one ever complains about falco's speed and it definitely isn't the reason he wins matchups. Fox is a different story.

Falco is fast. his shffl alone make him faster than most characters simply because he can utilize his aerials into his other attacks without waiting in midair at all. Marth, for instance, has a great WD and dash speed, but he has to wait longer than Falco to shffl an aerial as quickly as possible (unless he SHDF) and you didn't even comment on how his attack speed and jump speed, which definitely factor into speed. Falco's incredible first jump and the speed at which it gets to that height makes his follow ups incredibly fast. Is shine bair slow? Is dair shine slow?

Falco isn't as fast as Fox or C. Falcon and maybe Pikachu, but I'd say he is faster than just about everyone else in the cast. And no one would complain about this because Falco technically doesn't need to be fast as Fox; his approach is so safe because his projectiles are FAST and him SHL towards you is not slow at all. Those could count as speed too.

Fox has garbage recovery? God I hope that you're being formally sarcastic. If not, I seriously do not doubt how stupid you are.

Sorry, allow me to clarify: Fox has one of the most predictable recoveries. Almost every character in the game can punish his recovery well so that makes it bad to some levels. C. Falcon can travel huge distances but his recovery isn't considered good due to the edge guard factor so why not Fox? I will admite garbage was a poor word choice, its more like a middle of the road recovery.

Doesn't support the assumption that recoveries define match length, which was what Falco400 was poking at with that particular example. Falco can make Puff's recovery look negligible by exploiting her slow vertical speed and shinegrabbing often during pillaring -- playing more aggressively, so to speak. Conversely, Falco can play the MU extremely safely, avoiding most of Puff's handsy-*** shenanigans with careful laser play and general competence when on the defensive. Falco vs Puff can either be extremely long or hilariously short (likely the former because if Falco loses momentum due to a Rest / gimp, he'll be hard-pressed to get it back) due to the playstyles chosen by both players. You should also consider that Puff is the lightest high (Puff sucks, I'm never considering her top tier material) tier and dies to stupid stuff like shine --> shine on FoD.

You missed the point. ANY MU COULD BE PLAYED HOWEVER PEOPLE LIKE THEM. i was illustrating that Falco400 cant assume that matches between Fox and Falco will always be short, and then matches between Falco and Puff could vary. BOTH COULD VARY. There are no rules on how to play any MU. Saying this does not magically prove that recoveries don't affect match length.

Ok. So, have you noticed that Pichu loses in less than three minutes? Thought not.

Good point. I should've mentioned that character weight is also a huge factor on how effective a recovery is to begin with. Pichu would die incredibly fast beause he is very light but isn't as floaty as most other chars so he isn't as hard to combo as say Samus or Puff.

The potency of his recovery is limited because him being knocked off stage is going to happen a lot faster than Samus or Peach. Samus and Peach don't actually have to start using their recoveries until much later whereas Pichu will start getting knocked off at mid percents. Of course his match would be shorter.

Match-ups, as stated and referenced to already, define match length for the most part.

But why? Why would it affect match length? What factors in the MU? Is How people play the game? Well that is a weak argument because it incredibly relative as stated earlier.

My point is that saying fox vs falco is a fast match time due to their physics, and then saying that two characters with great recoveries and floaty physics have a slow match, but then state that it has nothing to do with recovery is a contradiction.

MUs could be played in any way possible, this is not a constant, thus it is not an argument.

However, match limit and MUs are affected by what kinds of tools the player has, and their physics and recovery play a huge role in this. If matches with Falco will be short due to his fast falling speed, low weight, and bad recovery, then conversely, samus will have a long match die to her floatiness, high weight, and good recovery.

Recovery doesn't make a character any different offensively or defensively.

I never said it did. The players tools and how well their physics compliment those tools would. Samus benefits from playing defensively due to all of her zoning options and the fact she can't use her shffl because she jumps so high and falls so slow. If she had Falco's short hop height and shffl, she could play offensively because she could approach with her awesome aerials. However, she obviously cannot, so that would affect how she is played.

Smash is a game of covering weaknesses and snatching as many opportunities as possible. If a player makes a mistake and ends up offstage, chances are that they're going to die anyway, despite the efficiency of their recovery options. Recovery, while very important to each character, does not heavily affect match length.

But since Falco's physics and recovery are unfavorable offstage, he has a shorter match? Can you possibly attempt to admit the reason for why matches are short vs long?

Oh I don't know -- because Samus and Peach can easily play keep away until one of them lands a kill at 160% while Falco will get a death combo once he gets his hands on something?

Why does it take until 160%? Is it because they aren't fast enough to follow up on floaty characters when they are floaty themselves and live forever?

And I am not denying Falco has better killing options than Samus and Peach, but I'm trying to show that his physics have a lot to do with the potency of his moveset and options.

Um... Link nor Samus have bad recoveries in Melee, so I'm very sure they weren't what Falco400 was alluding to.

Well I'm glad we agree on something lol

Rather, characters with very linear / limited recovery options, such as Kirby and Zelda, or outright poor recovery, namely Ness, got small yet very useful buffs in that particular area.

That's good. I dig that. Ness certainly needed a better recovery. He couldn't ledge hop aerial either which hurt him badly. and Zelda's recovery isn't that bad. She does have invicbility when she becoems invisible during the teleport.

It doesn't make them any better or worse; matches with those characters will not decrease or increase substantially in duration. In fact, their other, more notable buffs will undoubtedly make their matches slower.

Make Samus a fast faller and remove her down-b recovery option and see if her matches are the same length.

But more importantly, my whole point is that improving onstage games will improve a character more than giving them a better recovery. Some characters need that recovery buff (Like Ness, Yoshi, and Mario) But other characters need improvements in other areas of their game.

 

[9Kplus1]

doesn't beat passing out to neko's stream, waking up hungover next to a pool of vomit. man that was a fun stream...

Because like Brawl, unless you force them into a blast zone, characers can and will recover thus prolonging match length, and changing average kill percentage from say 110% to like 150%

wtf? you're completely disregarding brawl's marginally lower hitstun and momentum canceling. sure, characters like mk and ddd have an easy time gimping people to the blast zone and coming back, but that's not the main reason as to why they tank hits until 180%.

edit: holy **** marf, i'll reply too that in a sec

 

[GHNeko]

>Start playing P:M with Sova at 2PM
>Dont stop playing P:M until 5:30 AM next day.


I ****ing love P:M loool.


Shoutouts to those in the stream that stayed up late with us all.

 

[GHNeko]

Also, shoutouts to 9kplus1 taking shots for every stock my Falco lost at like 3AM.

Made that nigg vomit. yeee boi.

 

[TeiunBomb]

Man, that had to be one of the most hilarious streams I have ever seen. Charizard detailing pokéball life, a R.O.B. that doesn't fly (except when he does), nostalgia talk... god, I was dying laughing. The Final Fantasy VII demo experience almost killed me.

And man, 9kplus1 took all of those shots like a champ? You poor soul.

 

[Vigilante]

The Final Fantasy VII demo experience almost killed me.

Neko must speak of this to me, lol.

 

[GHNeko]

Lool one of the Sova smashers was talking about how FF7 didnt make sense to him when he was a kid.

Like how an attack from the buster blade missed when it clearly slashed down the middle of the opponent.

**** was hilarious loool. you really missed some amazing talk.

 

[9Kplus1]

zard prison talk was the best, though

 

[Xebenkeck]

wtf? you're completely disregarding brawl's marginally lower hitstun and momentum canceling. sure, characters like mk and ddd have an easy time gimping people to the blast zone and coming back, but that's not the main reason as to why they tank hits until 180%.

wtf? Do get what i said? I said in Brawl you dont generally kill someone unless your hit knocks them into the blast zones without question. Which doesnt happen until like 150% and you eat a fsmash. Momentum canceling won't stop you from hitting that blast zone outright.

If you dont hit characters straight into the blast zones, most to all characters in Brawl will recover. This doesn't happen in melee. You can fsmash falco, or ness, or bowser at like 90% and even though they don't hit a blast zone, they still may not be able to recover. Thus they die at way lower percents because of the inability to recover, which is something that is good about melee.

 

[iLink]

Momentum canceling won't stop you from hitting that blast zone outright..

lolwut?

That's like one of the biggest factors for not reaching the blast zone. You cancel the momentum from the knockback.

 

[jalued]

lolwut?

That's like one of the biggest factors for not reaching the blast zone. You cancel the momentum from the knockback.

that's a point, in brawl you can do an arial to reduce your momentum meaning that you live longer (a less extreme version of bucket breaking). Has this been fixed yet in PM or is that what magus is working on?